I'm Surrounded by Antis - Help!

The answer is: My wife has already discussed this with my daughter, my daughter with her husband, my brother with his wife. They all think I'm the one that's nuts in creating this terrible problem.

Click to expand...

When I was a cop and still married, guns were never an issue, After the break up, all of a sudden my gun became an issue of safety and she won't let me see the kids using my arsenal (less than 10 weapons) as the excuse. For me it is a control issue, I don't know if it is that for you too.

I think after 32 years of marriage you should know what is and isn't a line in the sand for you. If it was me, I would leave my CCW in the car when I visited their home (their home, their rules) and in my home do as I want.
You also now have the perfect excuse for not going places you never liked on the pretense that those people probably don't like guns either so your wife can go it alone.

Sounds like you have more going on than you are telling (which is your perogative).

This goes way beyond your desire to carry a gun. If it were me, I'd give serious thought to the joys of single life. You're married to a woman who doesn't respect or appreciate you. That's a marriage-breaker for me.

Suggestion...

I'm very new to these forums, much of this thinking and such, and there are already a great many good opinions here.

But in a desire to add my two cents somewhere, as I've read elsewhere here, I would suggest as others have, that you go along with your daughter's wishes and not have a gun in their house, though I would definitely keep it in your Jeep.

Also, I would talk to your wife about a compromise. If she is persistent about you not carrying in public when you take her downtown, to the doctor's, etc- see if you can carry or bring it along while you're in the car or some other fair compromise to the situation. You have taken the steps to get to your CCW for a reason(personal safety) and therefore, of all people, I think your wife could understand that desire for safety as well as potentially negotiate with you how best to have it amongst her. Try to take her to a firing range. If you succeed, it'll be an informative, exciting, eye opening experience.

As for everything else, in trying to help influence them and open their eyes- I would let your actions do the speaking for you and leave your words at home, as I don't think anything you say will sway them at this time.

I think their hostility is based on a lack of information and if they can see that your CCW doesn't turn you into a werewolf or cause you to go into unexpected shooting episodes- I think they'll relax more over time.

And when they're more relaxed and comfortable about the idea of guns, they'll eventually bring up your CCW, gun related issues in the news, and so on.

Let them initiate the discussions and questions, if at all possible. That would give them the opportunity to discuss guns when they're most ready without feeling that your wishes and decisions are going to be forced upon them. Gun related subjects, just like capital punishment, finances, and politics are all touchy subjects. If you have the patience to try to win them over with good manners and knowledge- give it a whirl.

IF however, they do take it upon themselves to ask you loaded questions or paint you into a corner, instead of accepting the interrogation- maybe ask if you can look into it more and get back to them.

Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire. If they decide to stand their ground and not cut you an ounce of slack, I would stand your ground with your opinions and choose not to get into a dead end, heated debate over something that they refuse to be rational about.

In this case though, I think a soft spoken, thoughtful discussion when they're most ready, is the best way to go. It'll take time, but since they are your family, surely they can grasp that their father or husband isn't totally off his rocker and understand that you wouldn't do something like this (acquire your CCW) without good reason.

And if you can get a polite discussion going- offer to take your daughter/wife/son in law to the firing range.

I went to the firing range for the first time in my life today. It was an informative, exciting, eye opening experience.

Best of luck, I apologize for how long winded I am.

-Tony

I have never hidden my guns from my kids but always out of reach locked in the gun cabinet, As my father did and explained to me, hide it and a child will become curious and just have to see what dad is hiding. anytime they wanted see one I would show it to them and let them hold it all the while explaining the proper techniques and proper safety. All were shooting by age 7. All three girls now shoot with their boyfriends and husbands and my son(the youngest, 18) has four in his room (inherited from his grandfather)in his own gun rack. I have been CCW for the last 4 years, at first my wife was not all that pumped about it, now when we go to the local Hood-mart she makes sure I bring it. She has mentioned recently that maybe she should get her CCW permit, (This from a gal who's mother is very anti-gun) and I agree and have a compact .45 ready for when she is. This is my Grandson at Christmas, start em early.

Vince

Man, you are in it deep.

The only thing I could say is use a common since factor(I did this with a few friends and it worked out pretty good). Sit every on down put you firearm on a table and sit and talk about it. what it does do, how it works, show them it is not the weapon it is the user.

You will might hear like I did."Its scary","Why" then "its a gun". and I could go on forever. Have them see it is no different then a Car,tool,Etc. Have them see what it is like if they want. Show them its just a few metal slabs that are

If they freak out like one of my friends did. Then show them how stupid it is to fear a weapon. That it will now jump up and go off or that there are safety devices on the weapon to stop the action.

Tell why you carry and why a lot of people carry.

Just have every one keep there cool and it all should work out.

Just tell her you sold all your guns and don't show them or talk about them in front of the kids and everything will be fine. By the way, in my state you don't have to file any paperwork for the private sale of firearms.

In time you will learn how to "play the game" with you ex-wife.

You have four options as I see it:

1. Carry anyway, and let everyone know it.
2. Carry anyway, but don't tell anyone/lie about it.
3. Stop carrying (at least around your family).
4. Attempt to change their views.

I am purposely leaving out the 'just leave your family' options. Although they are valid options, I really can't help you there, as that is a choice you alone must make, and such a choice requires weighing things that are obviously beyond the scope of this forum.

I'm also going to discount options 1 and 2 for the purpose of this response, because from your posts it sounds like you have already decided against these options. They're obviously valid options, but they're not for you, and that's fine.

This leaves us with options 3 and 4, and their possible outcomes.

3a. You stop carrying around your family, and harmony is restored
3b. You stop carrying around your family, and your family pushes for you to get rid of all of your guns

4a. You attempt to convince them and have success
4b. You attempt to convince them and do not have success (at least immediately)
4c. You attempt to convince them and find a workable compromise that all parties can agree to.

3a is an OK outcome (based on your choices, even though it's really a terrible outcome), and leaves you free to pursue option 4 while their 'guard' is down and they are not alarmed about you putting them in danger. 3b is a bad outcome, but in this case it is probably not likely because it sounds like they did not have a problem with you simply owning guns--and in the case of 3b, I can't imagine your wife pushing it, only your daughter and maybe your brother, so a workable compromise could be found here if this does happen. However, 3b is not ideal at all.

Option 4 is tricky. They feel in danger now. You're not going to be able to convince them if they feel in danger. Which means for this to work, you're going to need to try option 3 and hope you get outcome A, which seems very probable. Outcome A for option 4 is obviously the desired one, but outcome C isn't all that bad assuming it is indeed a workable agreement to which you can all agree. Outcome B isn't bad either, assuming you don't blow option 4 altogether, because if you haven't convinced them, you can still continue to try and do so.

So, my suggestion to you is first to stop carrying around them. You've done it before, so it might not be that hard to do. You could still carry a knife, pepper spray, or any other concealable non-firearm weapon and honestly be able to say you are not carrying a gun (just make sure if you do carry something, you do it legally. A lot of states have incredibly silly laws regarding things like knife length/type, etc.).

Next, you need to convince them. I am going to suggest you do this gradually, and gently. You have all of the time in the world (not really, but envision it like that), and if you mess up badly enough you won't ever be able to convince them. I honestly don't know what your family is like, but I would suggest that you simply and casually discuss their fears and concerns about you carrying, and ask them open ended questions about it (and reserve your judgment as much as you can so they don't shut down). I'd also recommend you don't try to do this when they're all together, that's just a bad idea. Essentially, figure out why they think (feel) what they do, and figure out a way to counter it that they can't wiggle out of. It's even better if you work so slowly that they can't tell you're trying to convince them of anything. Do not ever be adversarial--you don't want them to have a stake in 'winning' the argument, because there should be no argument, only reasoned discourse (at least on your part--they can substitute whatever they like for reasoned discourse, even "I think all guns are evil baby-killing things of death and destruction" as long as it remains civil). I know I've said it before, but slow and gradual is VERY important (although this doesn't mean you can't simply talk about it frankly, just don't talk about it for too long, and break it off before anyone starts to get frustrated...). Understand their point of view, and start chipping away at the fallacies, either by pointing them out as such (GENTLY), or adding new, correct facts to their understanding.

If you can reach a compromise with them that works for you and them, that's also a valid option. Just remember that reaching a compromise doesn't mean you don't have to stop trying to swing them over to our 'side' ok?

I honestly can't give you much more advice when talking to them than that, because you obviously know them much better than I do. What I suggested has worked well for me in the past, but I don't claim that it will work with your family. Do what you think is best, and what you can live with.

On another note, if they're really not comfortable with your level of training this might be a good excuse to sign up for LFI-I (http://ayoob.com/lfi1.html). Perhaps even an excuse to sign up for even more courses elsewhere

P.S. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it. Take anything you think may be helpful, and feel free to discard the rest.

This is why my GF is awsome because she thinks guns are cool lol. Yeah i know that doesn't help .

rainbowbob said:

Do I have a right to make them (in their minds) less safe?

Click to expand...

I think that question isn't being fair to yourself. A more accurate version might be, "Do I have a right to exchange making them feel less safe for making them be more safe?"

rainbowbob said:

I should make it clear that we have our grandson one or two days a week. He is truly the brightest light in my life - and he thinks I'm a rock star. Losing contact with him or the rest of my family is not an option to be seriously considered.

Click to expand...

Aha, a ray of hope! If your daughter really were to cut off contact, there would likely be tears, and difficult explanations, and bewildered childish nagging, right? It is possible, though painfully uncertain, that she could not hold out forever if it came to that.

Plus, if he stays with you that often, does that mean your daughter would lose a whole lot of really convenient free babysitting? More hope, possibly.

They also have unrealistic fears about guns magically going off and shooting someone with no provocation (e.g., if it is dropped or bumped). Additionally they seem to fear that a gun has other magical properties (like the ring in "The Ring") that turn good men evil by its very presence.

Click to expand...

You’re not going to leave your wife or not see your grandson. You’re not going to be estranged from your daughter or her husband. Family is the most important thing.

That’s all I know for sure – I can’t help you with the rest. You and your family alone will have to work this out.

I quoted the above because I believe that’s where you need to start the discussion. Help them address their irrational fears.

Good luck.

That is good. The only flaw is it makes too much sense.

They will undoubtedly respond with something like, "If you're not going to use it, why do you need to carry it?"...and..."What if it goes off accidently?"...or..."What if a robber takes it from you and shoots us with it?"...sigh...

Click to expand...

It's a habit.

Bob, my own family dynamics are far different from yours. I don't have people like that in my family and I don't know how to carry on a real relationship with such people. They're alien to me. On occasions where I've encountered such people, I walk away and I don't return. I won't deal with blackmailers or extortionists. You're not me.

Look for the best price you can get for those firearms you own and pursue other interests. Next time consult with your wife, daughter, brother, and others who matter to you before you act.

Your Family has laid down the THIER LAW to you.
When are you going to LAY DOWN YOUR LAW to them?
Ultimatums are two edged swords. They must learn that to issue them invites you to return the favor.
I would have a heart to heart with the Wife. She is the key to this mess. You can not present a united front to the rest of the family until you and her work this out.
I have been maried twenty happy years, if my wife did to me what yours has done our mariage would be in trouble. She has betrayed you and that must be resolved.
I would tell my wife that I feel betrayed by her behavior and attitude. That if she distrusts me that much then we need to go our seperate ways. Life is to short to live with people who see you as a child murdering thug. Betrayl in the Family unit can not be tolerated or over looked.

If you dont feel betrayed and threatned by all of this, please go off by yourself and think about this for awhile.

Good luck.

http://gunlaws.com/Hoplophobia Analysis.htm
That article might give you some helpful information and strategies. It is really good.

He does live in the real world - he's a judge who sees all kinds of bad stuff every day. He replied with the old "Violence is NEVER the answer!" routine.

Click to expand...

Ask him if his bailff(s) are armed and whether he allows armed cops in his courtroom. If so, ask him WHY, since "violence is NEVER the answer!"

Challenge him to disarm his bailiff(s) and forbid cops from carrying in his courtroom.

I GUARANTEE you he's a hypocrite.

So - My question for you good folks is this:

Do I resign myself to CCW when I am alone and hope nothing bad ever happens when I am with my family?

Click to expand...

No. You be yourself. If your family can't accept who you are, then you have bigger problems than CCW.

*posting here to come back later and read more.

Thanks for all the replies on a very tough issue.

I have been reading this thread for the last two days. You are in a tough spot alright.

No way can you or will you lose the ability to be with you grandson. I have three of them and they rank higher than anyone or anything, including guns. I know I will not be in the spot you are but after a lot of thought it is a no brainer. Leave the guns locked up when the boy is at your home, don't carry in your childrens homes. It is that simple.

You have gotten several responses that basically say cut off your family, dump your wife.
IMHO family is the most important thing in life. More important than self defense. When people marry there is a vow that mentions for better or worse, and until death do you part. These days people seem all to quick to walk out on their vows that seemed reasonable on their wedding day. I have little or no respect for this view. To me vows made on my wedding day mean something. Ask yourself would you rather be sitting at home alone in old age with a few guns, or have guns safely stored with grandbabies at your side. You are not showing weakness by giving in. It takes a strong man to compromise. There are other tools to defend yourself. Like situational awareness and picking and choosing where you go. Choose wisely in these matters and you can increase you odds of safety.

Don't give up on educating your wife, you two still have years to spend together. While your guns are locked up when the boy is over be sure to use some of your time together to expose him to firearms through magazines and websites. A toy gun or two might not hurt. I mean they are toys for goodness sake. Educate him constantly on firearm safety. As the child grows older he will pressure his parents on some things.

Do not back down on carrying when you are out and about without your grandson. Your wife may not like it but remind her of wedding vows. Remind her that you two are a team and remind her that there are things she does you do not like ( assuming there are) but you would never forbid her a posession.

It all might seem dire right now, but in time it will work out.

Im283 - it's not about self defense. It's about power-sharing (or not) in family relationships.

Compromise is a good thing, when everyone is ready and willing to compromise. Until then, well, it's not very constructive and in many ways harmful.

You need to change the tenor of the discussion. First, what you do is your business, they don't like it, they can f**k off. Tell them as much. There is no reason to make this a "rift". This is no different than carrying a knife. Most people carry knives and certainly no one loses their bowels over it that I know of.

Second off, It is your job to protect your family. You tell your wife, that you will get rid of the guns, but all the "protection" is left to her. Seriously I told my wife that it is easy to be idealistic when / if I am the one that has to go and get killed because YOU were wrong. Since it is your job, you decide the tools. Do you tell her with what she can decorate the house? (extension applies to whatever is her job at home). Tell her that if she wants to leave over this, there is the door. You have made your stance known and that is final. There is no more discussion.

THIRD, Relay that Women (ABOVE ALL) have more to gain from guns than any single group. Go buy her some history books. Women before guns were.... you get the drift. My 5' tall 100 pound mom can take on the Heavy Weight champion of the world now... She doesn't have to be intimidated, NOR does she have to hide behind a "man" to protect her.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml That article says it all.


Regarding your daughter... Drama. That somes up 15 - 30 something women. Drama. Don't pay attention. Beyound respecting the no guns in their house creedo, just don't get sucked into the drama.

RB: You are in one tough spot, and you have my sympathies and prayers.

My daughter has absolutely ZERO interest in guns, as does her husband. All three of my sons like to shoot, although not equally as much. My son in law, when he found out I carry concealed, said "Wow, I guess I better not make you mad or you'll shoot me!" (I think he was kidding, in retrospect...the man can deadpan a joke so much that you have no idea if he's actually serious, lol.) But we have a good relationship: i don't nag them to go to church, they don't nag me not to carry guns She's a grownup. Her choices bring me personal pain, but that's my issue, not hers. Me carrying guns, owning an AR-15, etc., etc., usually elicits a roll of the eyes and a "no, Mom, I'm not interested" whenever I invite her to go shooting with me. But the rock bottom value is mutual respect. That's what you're not getting, from anyone else in your family. At the very least, they owe you one evening in which you present your views without interruption and in which they promise to LISTEN. That's respect. They don't owe you agreement but they do owe you respect.


If I were faced with this, I think I'd point out something like that to her. "You are an adult. You can choose to do what you want; if you want my advice I give it, and if you don't, I don't. Unless you want me to start in on you on [fill in the blank, but for us it would be church] in the same way you're going on and on about my firearms, you need to grant me the same respect I give you."

I hope they calm down. In truth, as time goes by and your guns do not suddenly erupt in homicidal frenzies, jumping out of your holster all by themselves to attack buses full of nuns and school children, they probably WILL calm down. Part of this problem is that they're all new to it too. Time may heal some of this.


Springmom

I'm kind of going through this right now.

My wife, who used to think as the anti's do, is getting her concealed carry permit. She will be carrying a Bersa .380. Many of the people we know think she is nuts.

Also, I have had friends who are pacifists come to me several times in the past because they have found themselves in situations where they couldn't handle the person who was harassing them and the police were of no help. They were simply too damn pacifist to get a weapon and protect themselves, so they called on their good friend (me) who they always argued with about this issue. I have successfully stopped each encounter from escalating without having to shoot anyone, or even get physically violent. However, in the three instances that come readily to mind, the man, or men involved knew they would be facing me if it escalated and that I would use much more than harsh language, and I wouldn't miss.

That being said, I have gotten sick and tired of being told that I am making a choice when it comes to such instances. That I could choose to walk away, or not get involved, or let the bad guy have what he wants. I have now taken the stance that that is fine with me. The next time they get involved with some nut case who takes offense at their business practices, or their daughter hooks up with some scuzz ball that beats her, they can simply handle the situation in their own pacifist manner and leave me out of it. I'm getting too damn old to come rushing to their defense every time they have a problem with some punk. If that leaves them swinging in the breeze, tough. I'm sick and tired of being called to save someone's tush, only to then be ridiculed and laughed at as some kind of violent nut case. To hell with em. If I lose decades long friendships over this, that's their loss and I hope the loss isn't fatal, but don't call me, I'm busy that afternoon, I have to go to the range and practice!