When did the TSA change their rules on handling and inspecting firearms???
- Thread starter JLStorm
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49 CFR Section 1540.111(c)(2)(iv) is the LAW. The Code of Federal Regulations is LAW.
The rule says "only the passenger retains the key or combination."
Suppose I use a TSA combo lock and I do not have a TSA key. Then only I retain the combination. I do not have a TSA key, so there is no key for me to retain.
The rule says "or." As long as I retain the combination, I have retained "the key or combination." The fact that TSA has a TSA key that I don't have a TSA key will not result in enforcement by TSA against me.
Show my how I am wrong.
In the absence of a pronouncement by TSA that they would prosecute people using TSA locks, I'd be prepared to defend that position in court.
There is both the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law.
The spirit of the law clearly shows the intent is to keep the means to lock or unlock the container out of the hands of those involved in the shipping process, except when in the immediate presence of firearm owner/shipper.
The Letter of the law also supports this, though with your interpretation not as clearly.
So when combining both the letter and the spirit of the law you are left with a clear conclusion that they do not want anyone besides you with a way to unlock the firearm's container outside of your immediate presence.
The "combination or key" part is clearly meant to differentiate between locking mechanisms that operate with either a combination or a key. Not an exclusion to a locking mechanism that uses both.
When this law was written I doubt locks with both key and combination were readily available if they even existed. Your interpretation of the law is certainly not the intent of the law and I don't think for a moment it would stand up in court.
It's not the TSA I would be worried about as they don't even know what there own regulations are much less the law.
It's not the TSA I would be worried about as they don't even know what there own regulations are much less the law.
coloradokevin
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- 3,285
The TSA annoys me. Even as an active LEO, I get treated like a criminal at least once every time I fly and check my gun (trying to board a plane while armed these days, even as a full-time police officer, falls somewhere between far more trouble than it is worth, and damn near impossible -- so much for real "homeland security").
This isn't to say that all of the TSA employees are bad, but I've had a few notable instances:
Flying to HI this past October, checking my weapon at the baggage counter. I tell the guy at the counter that I have a firearm in my "blue" checked baggage, stored per regulations, and I need to have that bag checked so that the locks aren't cut. He turns pale and looks like he is going to faint, so I badge him (not that any of the rest of you don't have the right to check a firearm, even without a badge).
Anyway, he gets on the phone to his supervisor, who calls to the TSA guy... Who also comes over and evil-eyes me. Then he yells (across a crowded lobby of people who will be on my plane) "hey we have a gun in this blue bag here". A few liberal soccer moms considered fainting, and this pissed me off because now EVERYONE on my flight knew that this blue bag would be floating around on the baggage trolley later with a gun inside (easy pickings for any thief, if they beat me to the baggage area).
So, anyway, I get called over to see the TSA supervisor. I'm livid at this point, so I show him my creds as well, and ask if there is some problem with me checking the duty weapon that I am required to carry with me.
He sends me to another TSA guy, they ask me to open the case and place the signed "firearm unloaded" sheet in with the gun. Next he examines all of my luggage as if I'm smuggling dope, runs about ten of those so-called "explosive detection" patches through the bag, questions me some more, etc... Then they let me relock the case, and send it on it's way.
Still, how stupid is it to yell something like that across the lobby at an airport? First, panic factor for the sheep in line, second revealing that there is a gun in a specific bag!
I've had better experiences at other airports, including the return trip from HI. I told the ticket agent there, and he laughed saying "yeah, not to many folks with guns around here in HI... gimme a second to figure out what to do". He walks away for a minute, comes back and says "just take the bag to the TSA guy over there when you have a minute". I go and see the TSA guy, and he immediately pegs me for a cop. He used to be one, BS's about the job, guns, etc.... Asks me if the weapon is unloaded, sends me on my way.
Anyway, the procedure really shouldn't be different for any non-LEO who is checking a gun in baggage... Just keep in mind that we all have to jump through the stupid hoops these days, even us LE guys!
This isn't to say that all of the TSA employees are bad, but I've had a few notable instances:
Flying to HI this past October, checking my weapon at the baggage counter. I tell the guy at the counter that I have a firearm in my "blue" checked baggage, stored per regulations, and I need to have that bag checked so that the locks aren't cut. He turns pale and looks like he is going to faint, so I badge him (not that any of the rest of you don't have the right to check a firearm, even without a badge).
Anyway, he gets on the phone to his supervisor, who calls to the TSA guy... Who also comes over and evil-eyes me. Then he yells (across a crowded lobby of people who will be on my plane) "hey we have a gun in this blue bag here". A few liberal soccer moms considered fainting, and this pissed me off because now EVERYONE on my flight knew that this blue bag would be floating around on the baggage trolley later with a gun inside (easy pickings for any thief, if they beat me to the baggage area).
So, anyway, I get called over to see the TSA supervisor. I'm livid at this point, so I show him my creds as well, and ask if there is some problem with me checking the duty weapon that I am required to carry with me.
He sends me to another TSA guy, they ask me to open the case and place the signed "firearm unloaded" sheet in with the gun. Next he examines all of my luggage as if I'm smuggling dope, runs about ten of those so-called "explosive detection" patches through the bag, questions me some more, etc... Then they let me relock the case, and send it on it's way.
Still, how stupid is it to yell something like that across the lobby at an airport? First, panic factor for the sheep in line, second revealing that there is a gun in a specific bag!
I've had better experiences at other airports, including the return trip from HI. I told the ticket agent there, and he laughed saying "yeah, not to many folks with guns around here in HI... gimme a second to figure out what to do". He walks away for a minute, comes back and says "just take the bag to the TSA guy over there when you have a minute". I go and see the TSA guy, and he immediately pegs me for a cop. He used to be one, BS's about the job, guns, etc.... Asks me if the weapon is unloaded, sends me on my way.
Anyway, the procedure really shouldn't be different for any non-LEO who is checking a gun in baggage... Just keep in mind that we all have to jump through the stupid hoops these days, even us LE guys!
Cacique500
Member
The CFR is the ACTUAL law - the TSA "rule" is a guideline. I went through this exact argument with TSA in the Dallas airport.
If they demand you hand over the key (versus you offering to unlock it and RETAIN the key which is fine...) get a supervisor and a federal air marshal. When the marshal arrives let him know that the TSA agent is trying to get you to violate federal law and get THEM arrested instead. It's a VERY good idea to travel with the actual CFR mentioned above...I keep a copy in my gun case that I fly with.
YMMV, but it worked for me.
If they demand you hand over the key (versus you offering to unlock it and RETAIN the key which is fine...) get a supervisor and a federal air marshal. When the marshal arrives let him know that the TSA agent is trying to get you to violate federal law and get THEM arrested instead. It's a VERY good idea to travel with the actual CFR mentioned above...I keep a copy in my gun case that I fly with.
YMMV, but it worked for me.
The sources of the intent are silent on the intent of this rule. That includes the preamble to the rule in the Federal Register, 67 FR 8353, Feb. 22, 2002, the statute that authorizes the rule, and the surrounding rules. I would argue that the intent is to keep thieves out and not to keep the TSA out. I cannot imagine how the intent to NOT keep TSA out is met by prohibiting a TSA lock.
It is clear from the rule is that TSA must be given access to inspect the gun. It is clear that the gun case be locked. It is clear that the suitcase be locked. It is clear that I must retain the key or combination. It is not clear that I must retain the key and combination. It is clear that by my retaining the combination, only TSA can unlock the lock. Even if the current rules were written before TSA locks existed, TSA locks fit very neatly into TSA's program. TSA would have to be the entity to arrest and seek prosecution if this were a violation.
I have defended more clients than I can count for violations of criminal statutes and rules in the CFR that were less clear than this one. One thing that was always clear - the plain language of the law prevails. In this case, even if "key or combination" was a mistake and was supposed to say "key and combination," the court would first look to the plain language and only after it found ambiguity would it look to the legislative intent or surrounding rules and laws. I think or means or. There are plenty of definitions in the TSA rules, but none that define "or" to mean "and."
If intent of the surrounding rules and laws is to make access by TSA to checked guns more difficult and instead to require the passenger being present during inspection, I haven't seen any evidence of it, and have only seen the opposite.
As to the spirit of the law? I would argue that it the same as the intent - to keep crooks out and allow the TSA in.
Again, I ask for someone to show me where it says no TSA locks. Or show me a case of someone being prosecuted for using a TSA lock. The only thing I've seen is smooth sailing with TSA locks and a refusal by TSA to allow me to transport guns without supplying the key or combination, despite repeated offers to unlock the gun for the TSA supervisor.
Is that relevant? TSA is perfectly satisfied with plastic gun cases. TSA was very unhappy with my heavy gauge steel safe with unlabeled pushbuttons on the simplex lock, and gave me lots of grief. They made me draw a picture of the lock, number the buttons on the picture, and write out instructions for them to open it. They gave me hell for insisting on opening it for them and more hell for pointing the rule to them in the CFR. My choices were to write out the instructions, leave the airport and FEDEX my gun to myself and miss my flight, or abandon the gun.
heypete
Member
A few months ago, I flew from Phoenix, AZ to San Jose, CA and back.
In Phoenix, the check-in agent with US Airways was professional, and knew the rules. She filled out the necessary parts of the little orange tag, had me put it in the locked Pelican case, and take it to the TSA. They asked for the keys, I refused and explained why I did so, so they had me unlock the case and observe while they inspected the case. Not a big deal.
When flying back to Phoenix, the US Airways gate agent in San Jose repeatedly asked for my keys (the case had already gone back on the belt to who-knows-where) and claimed the TSA required the keys to open the case. I repeated refused, and pointed out the writing in half-inch-high lettering on the side of the podium which specifically said that only the passenger can have the key or combination. This back-and-forth continued several times, with the agent going through a door to check with his supervisor and the TSA several times. It likely would have continued longer had I not informed the agent that if he insisted that I violate federal aviation law one more time, I would summon the airport police. He went back through the door, and returned five minutes later saying that everything was OK. When I arrived in Phoenix, my case and locks were unmolested.
I was so irritated with the behavior of the gate agent that I wrote a letter of complaint to US Airways' corporate headquarters (something I very, very rarely do) in which I described the experience and the employee's name. They responded shortly thereafter with a letter of apology, informed me that they would be sure that their agents knew the proper handling of checked firearms, and gave me a $250 travel voucher good on any US Airways flight.
That voucher is now going towards my trip to Europe this summer.
In Phoenix, the check-in agent with US Airways was professional, and knew the rules. She filled out the necessary parts of the little orange tag, had me put it in the locked Pelican case, and take it to the TSA. They asked for the keys, I refused and explained why I did so, so they had me unlock the case and observe while they inspected the case. Not a big deal.
When flying back to Phoenix, the US Airways gate agent in San Jose repeatedly asked for my keys (the case had already gone back on the belt to who-knows-where) and claimed the TSA required the keys to open the case. I repeated refused, and pointed out the writing in half-inch-high lettering on the side of the podium which specifically said that only the passenger can have the key or combination. This back-and-forth continued several times, with the agent going through a door to check with his supervisor and the TSA several times. It likely would have continued longer had I not informed the agent that if he insisted that I violate federal aviation law one more time, I would summon the airport police. He went back through the door, and returned five minutes later saying that everything was OK. When I arrived in Phoenix, my case and locks were unmolested.
I was so irritated with the behavior of the gate agent that I wrote a letter of complaint to US Airways' corporate headquarters (something I very, very rarely do) in which I described the experience and the employee's name. They responded shortly thereafter with a letter of apology, informed me that they would be sure that their agents knew the proper handling of checked firearms, and gave me a $250 travel voucher good on any US Airways flight.
That voucher is now going towards my trip to Europe this summer.
SMMAssociates
Member
Perhaps I missed something, but it appears that the TSA now are saying that they may want to break into your gun case, and then refuse to release the case to the airline....
My take on the key thing is to use only a physical key, and be prepared to "loan" it to the TSA folks, behind the curtain if that's the way they want it, as long as it's returned immediately.
I would not use a TSA lock for a gun case. Everybody has a key except us, and it may violate the "you keep the key" rule.
I would not use a combination lock - too much chance for that to get around....
My very limited experience is that a "real" lock goes on the gun box, and a TSA lock goes on the outer "suitcase". Once the TSA has approved the boxed gun, there's no need to open it again, even if somebody want's to paw around in your undies.
My first attempt to check a gun went absolutely fine. The bag and the gun arrived at my destination as expected.
On the return trip, the countergirl had no idea.... I asked her for the declaration card, and she had to call somebody to ask where they were.
TSA later opened the bag, someplace, and placed a "we looked inside" note in it. Wouldn't care about that, but they'd unwrapped a box of .45's that I'd applied extra packaging to - a plastic bag and some rubber bands - just because it seemed awfully flimsy. Wouldn't care about that, but there's a rule against loose ammunition, and a good bump, followed by a re-inspection, might have caused me some problems with that.
Finally, take a gun you really wouldn't mind a check for.... I have a couple....
The silly part: These rules really only mean that a TSA employee will have to take the time to load a gun he/she steals from us. Does a gun locked in a suitcase in the aircraft's hold represent any danger to anybody, particularly if nobody knows that there's one in there?
(There are legal issues in having a loaded handgun in your possession in some areas, but if you're flying from one place you can legally do so, to another place where you can legally do so, who should care?)
Nibbled to death....
I'll be testing this again in October. Film at 11.
Regards,
My take on the key thing is to use only a physical key, and be prepared to "loan" it to the TSA folks, behind the curtain if that's the way they want it, as long as it's returned immediately.
I would not use a TSA lock for a gun case. Everybody has a key except us
, and it may violate the "you keep the key" rule.I would not use a combination lock - too much chance for that to get around....
My very limited experience is that a "real" lock goes on the gun box, and a TSA lock goes on the outer "suitcase". Once the TSA has approved the boxed gun, there's no need to open it again, even if somebody want's to paw around in your undies.
My first attempt to check a gun went absolutely fine. The bag and the gun arrived at my destination as expected.
On the return trip, the countergirl had no idea.... I asked her for the declaration card, and she had to call somebody to ask where they were.
TSA later opened the bag, someplace, and placed a "we looked inside" note in it. Wouldn't care about that, but they'd unwrapped a box of .45's that I'd applied extra packaging to - a plastic bag and some rubber bands - just because it seemed awfully flimsy. Wouldn't care about that, but there's a rule against loose ammunition, and a good bump, followed by a re-inspection, might have caused me some problems with that.
Finally, take a gun you really wouldn't mind a check for.... I have a couple....
The silly part: These rules really only mean that a TSA employee will have to take the time to load a gun he/she steals from us. Does a gun locked in a suitcase in the aircraft's hold represent any danger to anybody, particularly if nobody knows that there's one in there?
(There are legal issues in having a loaded handgun in your possession in some areas, but if you're flying from one place you can legally do so, to another place where you can legally do so, who should care?)
Nibbled to death....
I'll be testing this again in October. Film at 11
.Regards,
lanternlad1
Member
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- Apr 14, 2007
- Messages
- 770
The times I've checked my gun, I've only flown within Texas, and had no problems. The TSA and counter agents here seem very used to people flying with guns and have been very friendly and professional about it. I have heard some horror stories from people flying from nanny states tho.
obiwan1
Member
As I stated earlier, and was acknowledged by others, that the Federal Aviation Code IS the law. As I read it (as a Federal LEO, not a lawyer) the intent is to keep everyone out until either the airline rep and/or TSA asks you to open the bag. If you have the only key/combination, then you are in strict compliance. With TSA locks EVERYONE has the key and that puts you in violation. I think that I can argue that point to the TSA Supervisor's Supervisor if needed.
I do carry a copy of the Code with me with the appropriate sections highlited so that I can easily point them out to the offending party. It has happened to me. I pointed out the specific section and had them escort me to the bag, unlock it, and stand back while they do their thing.
As far as the airlines go, I've never had any problem with them carrying my checked bag. I have taken the bag from the check in counter directly to TSA, but the airlines haven't hassled me.
Not to blow my own horn, but I've always found it much easier to carry in the cabin (i'm allowed to do this frequently). Fill out the form, check with local PD, sign the book and proceed. (there's more to it, but they're just details)
But those times that I have to check my gun.......
I do carry a copy of the Code with me with the appropriate sections highlited so that I can easily point them out to the offending party. It has happened to me. I pointed out the specific section and had them escort me to the bag, unlock it, and stand back while they do their thing.
As far as the airlines go, I've never had any problem with them carrying my checked bag. I have taken the bag from the check in counter directly to TSA, but the airlines haven't hassled me.
Not to blow my own horn, but I've always found it much easier to carry in the cabin (i'm allowed to do this frequently). Fill out the form, check with local PD, sign the book and proceed. (there's more to it, but they're just details)
But those times that I have to check my gun.......
evan price
Member
I am currently in the middle of travelling for work, I brought my XD9 with me just because I can, and all the states I am visiting honor my Ohio CCW license. So why not?
Had absolutely no problems so far in the airports I am going through. Nobody gave me any problems. The TSA did not want into my locked gun case. They did want in the other suitcase with my ammo.
I believe that the airport you fly through has some large contribution to the attitude of the screeners. Get a place that is more anti- get worse treatment.
There are always those types that gravitate towards jobs that allow them to flex their "importance" in terms of making someone else's day go wrong.
I have close personal friend who works for TSA and she tells me that there are a lot of those who seem to think their job is to find a reason to deny boarding to as many as possible.
Had absolutely no problems so far in the airports I am going through. Nobody gave me any problems. The TSA did not want into my locked gun case. They did want in the other suitcase with my ammo.
I believe that the airport you fly through has some large contribution to the attitude of the screeners. Get a place that is more anti- get worse treatment.
There are always those types that gravitate towards jobs that allow them to flex their "importance" in terms of making someone else's day go wrong.
I have close personal friend who works for TSA and she tells me that there are a lot of those who seem to think their job is to find a reason to deny boarding to as many as possible.
SMMAssociates
Member
obiwan1:
A buddy of mine, then with Reno NV PD, and quite a few years ago, had to carry "in flight".
The paperwork was a little fun, but that part worked out well.
Then he was escorted onto the aircraft with about the same pomp & circumstance that a visiting Papal delegation might enjoy....
Being that he's quite large, and a little shy, he was not amused. Thereafter, he used to just check the gun....
(We won't talk about the time he walked into the sterile area at Reno's airport with a J-frame on his ankle.)
(Evan - CLE's not a problem, IMHO. But if OH's passport control folks find out you've left the state, you may not get back in.)
Regards,
A buddy of mine, then with Reno NV PD, and quite a few years ago, had to carry "in flight".
The paperwork was a little fun, but that part worked out well.
Then he was escorted onto the aircraft with about the same pomp & circumstance that a visiting Papal delegation might enjoy....
Being that he's quite large, and a little shy, he was not amused. Thereafter, he used to just check the gun....
(We won't talk about the time he walked into the sterile area at Reno's airport with a J-frame on his ankle.)
(Evan - CLE's not a problem, IMHO. But if OH's passport control folks find out you've left the state, you may not get back in
.)Regards,
Response from NRA-ILA
Below is a chain of emails to and from the NRA-ILA in chronological order. I will post the response to my last email when I receive one. While I am impressed by the quick response time, so far, I am not impressed with their attitude towards the matter. I suppose in the meantime I should contact the TSA, FAA, AG, and perhaps DHS?
Below is a chain of emails to and from the NRA-ILA in chronological order. I will post the response to my last email when I receive one. While I am impressed by the quick response time, so far, I am not impressed with their attitude towards the matter. I suppose in the meantime I should contact the TSA, FAA, AG, and perhaps DHS?
I have one of those monster aluminum cases for my Sporting Clay shotgun. It has about 5" of foam inside and a big locking rod that runs through four latches. Not much chance of mistaking what it is for.
I have had several agents want to poke around the foam, but I had a really strange moment in Houston last year. I was not really paying attention when the TSA agent said "hang on to this a moment"; I looked up to see him handing me my Beretta so he could search under the foam inserts, then he asked me to replace the gun. Lets say it was more than a little strange to stand there in the airport holding a shotgun.
I was still locking up the case when another TSA agent, I assume a supervisor, grabbed the guy by the shoulder and marched him off behind the x-ray machine. I did not hear what was said, but from the look on the guy's face when he came back, I would guess that was his last firearm inspection mistake.
I have had several agents want to poke around the foam, but I had a really strange moment in Houston last year. I was not really paying attention when the TSA agent said "hang on to this a moment"; I looked up to see him handing me my Beretta so he could search under the foam inserts, then he asked me to replace the gun. Lets say it was more than a little strange to stand there in the airport holding a shotgun.
I was still locking up the case when another TSA agent, I assume a supervisor, grabbed the guy by the shoulder and marched him off behind the x-ray machine. I did not hear what was said, but from the look on the guy's face when he came back, I would guess that was his last firearm inspection mistake.
Ditto. I hate flying because I sometimes make some small mistake during the awkward screening process (i.e. forget to remove my coat, proceed to a line that is not the shortest, ect.) and get yelled at and/or grabbed/pushed. (As if some how waiting longer in a line posed some potential security risk.)
I don't understand why they can't treat people like human beings.
It is the only place I ever go where strangers yell at me.
I should mention however, I found the TSA to behave in a kind manner at Newark. I had a Saturday morning flight, perhaps that is the optimal time for kind treatment.
Thin Black Line
Member
I had a similar experience in the midwest less than two years ago and I'm
pretty sure the TSA regs cited in this thread were in place back then. Yes,
I would have appreciated a bit more discretion, but my large pelican briefcase
with two locks certainly indicated something valuable was inside. I don't
recall any fainting soccer moms.
This is a simple process: the TSA supervisor or person designated to check
firearms does this with you present. You re-lock your case with your inspection
papers on the inside and a visible "mark" is put on the outside of your case
(I'm not disclosing the "mark" details here for obvious reasons). Your case is
put through with all the others. Upon arrival at your destination, you rush
down to baggage claim and get there before the track starts running.
Make sure you're right next to where the baggage comes out of the chute
and grab yours before anyone else has a chance to walk off with it. I would
do this with anything valuable.
If the regs have changed, I have not noticed it in terms of how I have been treated by TSA. They always want to have me show it's clear, and they are more then happy to let me open it, show them clear, put tag in box, and close it up and re lock it. I always ask if I can hang around while they do the general bag check, and they always say yes. We always shoot the sh*& about things, and I generally get a good impression of the person while we talk. Most have been generally pro gun types or at least not anti from any impressions I have gotten (can't say the same for some of the agents at th check in desk however).
None have asked for the key (and I flew twice last month), so it does not seem either most TSA people know about reg changes and or don't care, at least so far. I really don't care if I hand them the key personally as long as I am there to watch while they inspect it, and they hand me back the key right after. I would not however feel comfortable about giving out a combination to a lock, which is why I aways go the lock and key route. I put a hard case under lock and key into my larger soft case, which is then locked with a TSA "approved" combo lock.
None have asked for the key (and I flew twice last month), so it does not seem either most TSA people know about reg changes and or don't care, at least so far. I really don't care if I hand them the key personally as long as I am there to watch while they inspect it, and they hand me back the key right after. I would not however feel comfortable about giving out a combination to a lock, which is why I aways go the lock and key route. I put a hard case under lock and key into my larger soft case, which is then locked with a TSA "approved" combo lock.
Cacique500
Member
Negative!!! They are NOT allowed to mark your bag in ANY way...if you see them mark anything on your firearm luggage get a Federal Air Marshal immediately!!
From 18 USC Sec. 922(e):
SMMAssociates
Member
REB:
I believe that the sticker is just to tell TSA inspectors "down the line" to not bother with the bag because somebody has already checked it.
It still might be X-Rayed, just to double-check, but that may not be happening.
I had a bag opened "downstairs" at DFW after checking it in with a firearm. I believe that the countergal forgot to tag it. She almost forgot the Firearms Declaration, too. That would have been interesting.
My daughter had a small purse full of makeup and similar personal stuff just plain vanish at DFW. Charitably, it may have been put aside while poking through her other goods, but replacing that stuff wasn't cheap. I don't see how anybody would steal used makeup.... AFAIK, no "we looked in your bag" note from TSA, either. (I'm not sure I'd want to know.)
Regards,
I believe that the sticker is just to tell TSA inspectors "down the line" to not bother with the bag because somebody has already checked it.
It still might be X-Rayed, just to double-check, but that may not be happening.
I had a bag opened "downstairs" at DFW after checking it in with a firearm. I believe that the countergal forgot to tag it. She almost forgot the Firearms Declaration, too. That would have been interesting.
My daughter had a small purse full of makeup and similar personal stuff just plain vanish at DFW. Charitably, it may have been put aside while poking through her other goods, but replacing that stuff wasn't cheap. I don't see how anybody would steal used makeup.... AFAIK, no "we looked in your bag" note from TSA, either. (I'm not sure I'd want to know
.)Regards,
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