There's a ton of information here: http://www.homeofheroes.com/
Doug Sterner has spent years compiling information on MoH recipients.
Doug Sterner has spent years compiling information on MoH recipients.
Medal of Honor questions
- Thread starter Byron Quick
- Start date
- Status
Treo
member
QUOTE: " Look at bush giving whole divisons the presidential citation"
The award you are reffering to is called the Presidential UNIT Citation, it is not, nor has it ever been, given to an individual ( hence the word UNIT in the title) it is used to commend a significant accomplishment by a UNIT. once awarded to a unit anyone assigned to that unit may wear the ribbon as long as they are assigned to that unit.
QUOTE: "I always thought the POW medal was kinda weird decorating someone who surrendered"
Maybe you should go back & read what some of these folks went thru before they surrendered.
The award you are reffering to is called the Presidential UNIT Citation, it is not, nor has it ever been, given to an individual ( hence the word UNIT in the title) it is used to commend a significant accomplishment by a UNIT. once awarded to a unit anyone assigned to that unit may wear the ribbon as long as they are assigned to that unit.
QUOTE: "I always thought the POW medal was kinda weird decorating someone who surrendered"
Maybe you should go back & read what some of these folks went thru before they surrendered.
Storming parties were referred to as a "forlorn hope". Tradition has it that any member of a storming party that survived was automatically bumped a grade of rank. If a member of a storming party succeeded in entering a breach and captured a flag this would indeed be worthy of a Medal of Honor.
Or what they went through after they surrendered. You don't have much choice in surrendering if you eject and land on top of a SAM battery or in a concentration of troops that you just bombed. Hell, you are lucky to live through being captured, as the enemy and civilians are going to want to kill you.
treo- I know that the presidential citation is for units I also know that if you're in the unit at the time it was earned you can continue to wear it even after you've left that unit. If you look it up Bush gave the citation to EVERY unit that participated in the invasion of Iraq. I have no quarrel with battalions or what not getting it but entire divisons and expientonary units? especially if you look at past conflicts the invasion itself went very well(occupation not so much)
As for the POW decoration You do realize people have been decorated for what they've done, lots of men have been decorated for actions when they were captured. They were NOT decorated for being captured by itself. I understand that it is meant to show that what they sacrificed(like the purple heart) but to me surrendering is not a sacrifice.
Let me clarify by saying that I'm not disparaging soilders who surrender not in the slightest. I'm just saying they shouldn't be decorated for it
also in 2006 he awarded it to the ENTIRE coast guard!(katrina)
As for the POW decoration You do realize people have been decorated for what they've done, lots of men have been decorated for actions when they were captured. They were NOT decorated for being captured by itself. I understand that it is meant to show that what they sacrificed(like the purple heart) but to me surrendering is not a sacrifice.
Let me clarify by saying that I'm not disparaging soilders who surrender not in the slightest. I'm just saying they shouldn't be decorated for it
also in 2006 he awarded it to the ENTIRE coast guard!(katrina)
Last edited:
FPrice
Member
Looks like you know squat about POWs. Most of the people I have known who wear a POW medal were airmen (officers and enlisted) who were shot down. Try being shot down over enemy territory, most likely injured, and surrounded by pretty pissed-off enemy civilians and military and then tell me how wierd you think this is.
Better yet, tell some of those people to their face that you think they surrendered. Just bring some extra teeth along with you.
FPrice, why do you think they should be decorated? This thread started by the question of why the MOH got more selective. IMO this is related because I think across our society we are giving awards for stuff which dosent merit it.
Bear with me a second ok you're an airman pilot just doing your job you go down and get captured. Is this any different from an infrantryman who's position is overrun? Both of them have done the intelligent thing and surrendered. Most other decorations are for men who didn't do the intelligent thing ie staying and trying to hold their position even if they fails this is and should be honored? how do you put them on the same level? or if not on the same level, what did they do that was outstanding/exemplary in relation to the others?
My point is in awarding decorations for lesser acts, esp. those beyond the indivuals control lessens the meaning of the award(like when they gave 893 MOHs in the Civil War to those that reenlisted)
Anything a POW does that is outstanding while they are in captivity they can and have been decorated for. adding a blanket medal that just about anyone who sees combat can get dosen't honor anyone as those same pilots would get the exact same decoration as me If I was in a combat zone and surrendered.
In summary, decorate the accomplishment, not the circumstances
Bear with me a second ok you're an airman pilot just doing your job you go down and get captured. Is this any different from an infrantryman who's position is overrun? Both of them have done the intelligent thing and surrendered. Most other decorations are for men who didn't do the intelligent thing ie staying and trying to hold their position even if they fails this is and should be honored? how do you put them on the same level? or if not on the same level, what did they do that was outstanding/exemplary in relation to the others?
My point is in awarding decorations for lesser acts, esp. those beyond the indivuals control lessens the meaning of the award(like when they gave 893 MOHs in the Civil War to those that reenlisted)
Anything a POW does that is outstanding while they are in captivity they can and have been decorated for. adding a blanket medal that just about anyone who sees combat can get dosen't honor anyone as those same pilots would get the exact same decoration as me If I was in a combat zone and surrendered.
In summary, decorate the accomplishment, not the circumstances
FPrice
Member
It's a simple recognition of what these men had to endure. I'm not sure why you have aproblem with that. How many POWs have you known? I have served with a few.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I agree with my friend FPrice on the POW medal. Anyone thinking
that a US airman is less deserving of this medal, than say the solider
who's position is over run- is IMHO just dead wrong. One that comes
to mine during the Viet-Nam War, is my friend U.S. Navy Captain
James G. Pirie who was shot down over North Viet-Nam in 1967; on
his 225th mission to carry out bombing raids on Haiphong and
Hanoi. My friend, that tells me that he flew a total of 224 success-
ful missions in all kind's of weather, before being shot down.
Not to mention, that Captain Pirie also was the recipient of the
Silver Star Award as well. Five and one-half years of his life were
spent in the infamous "HANOI HILTON" as a POW. He was housed
at times in the same cell as our '08 Presidential candidate; the
Honorable John McCain- the distinguished senator from Arizona.
If he were still with us (unfortunately he passed away on 10 May 1998)
today, I would like for you too have told him he was undeserving of
his medal. And, like my other friend Frosty told you- "you had better
bring an extra set of teeth"~!
*FootNote: for a complete viewing of Captain Pirie's obituary, may I
refer you to the following website: www.FindAGrave.com and
click on "search for a cemetery" [Cedar Hill Cemetery] in Bessemer, AL.
Then, follow the listing of names until you get to Captain Pirie.
that a US airman is less deserving of this medal, than say the solider
who's position is over run- is IMHO just dead wrong. One that comes
to mine during the Viet-Nam War, is my friend U.S. Navy Captain
James G. Pirie who was shot down over North Viet-Nam in 1967; on
his 225th mission to carry out bombing raids on Haiphong and
Hanoi. My friend, that tells me that he flew a total of 224 success-
ful missions in all kind's of weather, before being shot down.
Not to mention, that Captain Pirie also was the recipient of the
Silver Star Award as well. Five and one-half years of his life were
spent in the infamous "HANOI HILTON" as a POW. He was housed
at times in the same cell as our '08 Presidential candidate; the
Honorable John McCain- the distinguished senator from Arizona.
If he were still with us (unfortunately he passed away on 10 May 1998)
today, I would like for you too have told him he was undeserving of
his medal. And, like my other friend Frosty told you- "you had better
bring an extra set of teeth"~!
*FootNote: for a complete viewing of Captain Pirie's obituary, may I
refer you to the following website: www.FindAGrave.com and
click on "search for a cemetery" [Cedar Hill Cemetery] in Bessemer, AL.
Then, follow the listing of names until you get to Captain Pirie.
FPrice
Member
Prisoner of War Medal
This medal (pictured below) was authorized by Congress and signed into law by President Reagan in 1986. The medal may be awarded to any person who was a prisoner of war after April 5, 1917, (the date of the United States entry into World War One). It is awarded to any person who was taken prisoner or held captive while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force; or while serving with friendly forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The person's conduct, while in captivity, must have been honorable. This medal may be awarded posthumously to the surviving next of kin of the recipient.
The medal was designed by Jay C. Morris of the Institute of Heraldry. On the obverse of the medal is an American eagle, wings folded, and completely enclosed (imprisoned) by a ring and following the outline of the medal. The reverse of the medal has the inscription, Awarded To (with a blank area for the recipient's name) For Honorable Service While a Prisoner of War in three centered lines. Below this is a shield of the United States, and below, following the curvature of the medal, are the words, United States of America.
The ribbon has a very wide center stripe of black, flanked on either side by a narrow white stripe, then a thin blue stripe, then another thin white stripe, and then a thin red stripe at the edge of the medal.
Authorized Device: Service Star
This medal (pictured below) was authorized by Congress and signed into law by President Reagan in 1986. The medal may be awarded to any person who was a prisoner of war after April 5, 1917, (the date of the United States entry into World War One). It is awarded to any person who was taken prisoner or held captive while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force; or while serving with friendly forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The person's conduct, while in captivity, must have been honorable. This medal may be awarded posthumously to the surviving next of kin of the recipient.
The medal was designed by Jay C. Morris of the Institute of Heraldry. On the obverse of the medal is an American eagle, wings folded, and completely enclosed (imprisoned) by a ring and following the outline of the medal. The reverse of the medal has the inscription, Awarded To (with a blank area for the recipient's name) For Honorable Service While a Prisoner of War in three centered lines. Below this is a shield of the United States, and below, following the curvature of the medal, are the words, United States of America.
The ribbon has a very wide center stripe of black, flanked on either side by a narrow white stripe, then a thin blue stripe, then another thin white stripe, and then a thin red stripe at the edge of the medal.
Authorized Device: Service Star
FPrice
Member
Ala Dan
My condolences on the loss of your friend, U.S. Navy Captain
James G. Pirie. Men like him should be honored and thanked for what they did.
My condolences on the loss of your friend, U.S. Navy Captain
James G. Pirie. Men like him should be honored and thanked for what they did.
mljdeckard
Member
I don't think that the process has become stricter since say, WWII, I just think we don't fight wars the way we used to. We use vast advantages in technology and economics to do everything we possibly can to prevent a single soldier from being in the position where he needs to repeatedly risk his own life to save the lives of many of his comrades, under fire, wounded, and likely losing his life in the process. Look at it this way. The only units that won't call in an airstrike to do the heavy work, or medevac to get the wounded under fire, are elite covert units for whom there is no backup. By and large, we just don't do a lot of 'fixed bayonets' dirty fighting anymore.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Ala Dan reread what I wrote please I did not say that soilders were more deserving I clearly stated there was no difference between the two. I was trying to point out that almost everybody gets a medal wounded, killed, above and beyond, and captured. and that handing out medals for everything defeats the purpose of a medal in the first place.
I have known two exPOWs, one was my grandfather, the other my great-grandfather. My father was in Vietnam, my cousin is in Iraq. I wasn't trying to disparage those that serve I was just expressing my opinion that this paticular medal was supurfulus.
I mean do you think Jessica Lynch and John McCain and my grandfather should all get the exact same medal even though they suffered varying degrees?
I'll just leave with this if I capture you and abuse you and then let you go. did you do anything outstanding? Should we reward those who got malaria(a lifelong illness) with a medal? Anyway I was merly stating my opinion I am sorry you disagree.
I have known two exPOWs, one was my grandfather, the other my great-grandfather. My father was in Vietnam, my cousin is in Iraq. I wasn't trying to disparage those that serve I was just expressing my opinion that this paticular medal was supurfulus.
I mean do you think Jessica Lynch and John McCain and my grandfather should all get the exact same medal even though they suffered varying degrees?
I'll just leave with this if I capture you and abuse you and then let you go. did you do anything outstanding? Should we reward those who got malaria(a lifelong illness) with a medal? Anyway I was merly stating my opinion I am sorry you disagree.
My grandfather was a POW in Germany. He was a waist gunner on a B-17 who had atleast one Messerschimit kill to his name and many other probables, was shot down over Italy and wounded in the arms and chest by flak. He spent 13 months in various camps until a British unit liberated his camp.
Like most former POWs and servicemen, he never compalined or sought special recongintion, he only wanted to start a family and get on with his life, but saying POWs are not entitled to a special decoration "for just surrendering" is like calling the Purple Heart an "Enemey Marksmanship Badge".
Like most former POWs and servicemen, he never compalined or sought special recongintion, he only wanted to start a family and get on with his life, but saying POWs are not entitled to a special decoration "for just surrendering" is like calling the Purple Heart an "Enemey Marksmanship Badge".
Surrendered???
Here is a link to a man for whom I worked during the summer after my junior year in high school, and the summer after my high school graduation.
http://www.maritimequest.com/warshi...igates/pages/antrim_ffg_20_richard_antrim.htm
He was one of the nicest, most gracious men I've met... and he was a warrior!
L.W.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
A POW Rememberance
Many thanks Frosty My Friend-
Yes, U.S. Navy Captain (Jim) Pirie use to sit in front of me in church
for many years. I had no idea that he would turn out too be a distinguished
Navy pilot. Upon his release in 1973, he spoke of his 5-1/2 year ordeal in the
prisons of Southeast Asia; and the inhumane conditions in which he lived. At
the time of the incident (22 June 67), he was flying a U.S. Navy A4E off the
carrier Kitty Hawk. As I said, he died suddenly of a massive heart attack on 10
May 98 in New Orleans, LA.
Many thanks Frosty My Friend-
Yes, U.S. Navy Captain (Jim) Pirie use to sit in front of me in church
for many years. I had no idea that he would turn out too be a distinguished
Navy pilot. Upon his release in 1973, he spoke of his 5-1/2 year ordeal in the
prisons of Southeast Asia; and the inhumane conditions in which he lived. At
the time of the incident (22 June 67), he was flying a U.S. Navy A4E off the
carrier Kitty Hawk. As I said, he died suddenly of a massive heart attack on 10
May 98 in New Orleans, LA.
FPrice
Member
LW,
Thank you for that link. No matter how much I think I know, learning about men like Rear Admiral Antrim shows me that our ability to demonstrate bravery in the face of such cruelty still exists and provides real profiles in courage for the rest of us.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
The Combat Medic Badge
Ladies & Gentleman-
The Combat Medic Badge is another U.S. Military Award that is not easily
obtained by a field medic, rendering aid to U.S. service personel while
engaged in combat operations and under enemy fire. This award has to
be documented on sight, (with date and time being paramount) by a
2nd LT. or above, I believe~? Very few were awarded during the Viet-
Nam War.
Ladies & Gentleman-
The Combat Medic Badge is another U.S. Military Award that is not easily
obtained by a field medic, rendering aid to U.S. service personel while
engaged in combat operations and under enemy fire. This award has to
be documented on sight, (with date and time being paramount) by a
2nd LT. or above, I believe~? Very few were awarded during the Viet-
Nam War.
All those decorated fpr valor are hero's in my opinion as are many mver decorated. In the UK we have less medals than the US I think pease corrct if i am wrong.
the Victoria Cross is insanely difficult to get. The peacetime equivilent is the George cross and I belive that the POW medal along with purple heart shoud exist in the UK.
we have some star medalsb equivalents including Military Crss Distingushed Military cross FC and DFC and citation in dispatches which IIRC allows an oak leaf badge.
The Uk does offer some cool things for the troops though capaign badges on dress uniform for those who served, specialist badges and many carry badges they have traded for e.g a para carried the crossed kurris of the Gurkha. and campaign medals.
the Victoria Cross is insanely difficult to get. The peacetime equivilent is the George cross and I belive that the POW medal along with purple heart shoud exist in the UK.
we have some star medalsb equivalents including Military Crss Distingushed Military cross FC and DFC and citation in dispatches which IIRC allows an oak leaf badge.
The Uk does offer some cool things for the troops though capaign badges on dress uniform for those who served, specialist badges and many carry badges they have traded for e.g a para carried the crossed kurris of the Gurkha. and campaign medals.
F Price, I thought you -- and others here --, might find that link interesting. What I forgot to put in my post was that Admiral Antrim was also awarded the Navy Cross, for his actions in combat previous to his capture and interrment in the Japanese concentration camp.
FWIW.
L.W.
rero360
Member
Alan Dan: I've met two individuals in the last 7 1/2 years of my military service that had the CMB, I know that one of our medics should have been awarded it, but again with the stringent regulations, she didn't get it, the deed worthy of the award happens but the right person isn't there to see it happen.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Att: rero360-
I'm sorry that person didn't get the CMB that she deserved; as is the
case so many times. There is just no telling how many brave souls
have gone into harms way, performed heroic acts and later were
not reconized~! Of course, there are those that did this kind'a
service; but don't want the reconigtion. To all those that did
perform unselfish service to render aid, moral support, resupply
ammo, rescue downed airman, or whatever else that duty called
for I am extremely grateful.
I'm sorry that person didn't get the CMB that she deserved; as is the
case so many times. There is just no telling how many brave souls
have gone into harms way, performed heroic acts and later were
not reconized~! Of course, there are those that did this kind'a
service; but don't want the reconigtion. To all those that did
perform unselfish service to render aid, moral support, resupply
ammo, rescue downed airman, or whatever else that duty called
for I am extremely grateful.
- Status
