Real effective range.

I assume that an 8" plate is the target you will "engage" at these distances since you mentioned it in your post.

I have this question:

I want an AK-74 for anything under 200
But an AR15 will do out to 400, provided it does 2moa or better
After 400 yards I want a .308 or better, with a 1moa acuracy

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If accuracy is your paramount issue, why even bother with an AK-74 at shorter ranges? An AR would work at shorter ranges as well as longer ones-- in one rifle.


I don't think too much is wrong with your logic regarding ranges.


And to answer your question...

what .308 self loader will do 1moa and be field reliable?

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DPMS LR-308 or Armalite AR-10.



-- John

I think you're overworking the accuracy thing. A 4MOA rifle will have a 12" dispersion at 300 yards. The 12" pattern will be centered around the POA and will hit within 6" of POA. 6" within center of mass is a torso hit.

On thing I have learned from going to our local 'shoot and move' rifle matches is how hard it is to see targets. At yesterday's match we (our group of shooters) took 5 minutes to identify 5 targets that were at ranges from 100 to 280 yards. The steel plates were painted white and in sunlight, but against the backdrop of the quarry where we shoot some were damn neigh impossible to see. In a SHTF scenario with goblins wearing camo (or dull colors) and using cover, I suspect that engagement ranges of over 200 yards (supposing on doesn't live in a isolated farmhouse in Kansas) are a fantasy.

BSW

When I go to the range, I never see anyone firing their real-accurate rifles except from blocks or sandbags on the bench...

For those people, it's not the accuracy of the rifle that's the limiting factor. It's that there isn't going to be a bench in the field.

Agreed. There's a difference between inherent accuracy and practical accuracy. Under stress fine motor control is the first thing that goes out the window so accurate shot placement at longer ranges becomes much more difficult. Also, as BSW mentioned, target ID at longer ranges becomes much more difficult (friend or foe? E&E or engage?).
My Bulgarian SLR-95's were the most accurate 7.62x39 AK's I've ever owned, doing honest 2" groups all day from a rest w/a 4x scope. My 5.45 AK's were all good out to 300m easy and while I could get a good percentage of hits at 400m there wasn't much oomph left in the bullets when they got there. Anything beyond 200m & I want magnified optics and preferably at least .308 power and for that I prefer the NDM-86 Dragunov, far more accurate than they should be w/168gr match ammo, my personal best groups are .24" (3-shot 100yds), .44" (4-shot 100yds) & 4.5" (3-shot 500m). I recently fired 20 shots rapid fire (no more than 4 seconds between shots except when changing the mag) at a 1,000yds std silhouette and achieved a 50% hit ratio.
Tomac
In original laminate furniture w/4x scope:

In modern Russian SVD black polymer furniture w/8x scope:

Don't get a WASR - all the ones I have tried are not 200 yard rifles - they are 50 yard rifles. At best.

4 MOA is good enough to get reliable hits on human torsos out to at least 300m and arguably to 500. If hunters could reliably shoot 4 MOA, no deer would stand a chance within 300 yards. Past 300m elevation and range estimation become major issues.

not too mention you have no idea what the wind is doing past about 50 meters from you, so the wind could be crossing back and forth, and doing circles, out to 500. So really, if you wanna hit up close, without a lot of guessing and doping, a averagely accurate ar or 545 will do , out to 300 yds. A very accurate ar with heavy bullets will do out to 500yds. A 308 for everything else.

if you want a rifle good at all ranges, then go out and buy an m14.
308 self loader, very very precise rifle. What else do you need.



p.s.
The
SVD is a beautiful firearm. It's worth the money I wish I had. Also very powerful, and very accurate.

some uk shooters get hits out to nearly a 1000m with heavy barrelled straight pull ars but why bother with hot handloads when you could buy a .308

Funderb said:

if you want a rifle good at all ranges, then go out and buy an m14.

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There ya go. Why do we keep reinventing the main battle rifle when it's already been done?

"if you want a rifle good at all ranges, then go out and buy an m14.
308 self loader, very very precise rifle. What else do you need."

7.62 NATO is overkill at close range and at long range you are probably never going to see a target. The M14 also 'gasp' is a long weapon that's ill suited to close range urban combat and is a pain to use around vehicles.

Need I also mention the difference in the number of rounds that can be carried for an equal weight of 5.56NATO or 7,62NATO?

M14s are nice and all, but the whole world's army's weren't crazy when they abandoned .30 full power cartridges and went to ~5.5mm high velocity ammunition. Can you name a .30 full power rifle that's been adopted anywhere, by anyone for general use since 1970? Sniper weapons, machine guns and special forces don't count as those are special applications. Neither do countries that adopted full-power rifles because they got the tooling at 'fire sale' prices when the originating country dumped that rifle.

BSW

The OP said he wanted a rifle that could perform well at three different ranges.
He also stated he wanted an autoloader.
He said for long range shots, he wanted .308.
I don't think the OP is going to be in CC combat and any hot fire fights soon. (I may be wrong) I think that an m14 is a very nice platform autoloader that can fulfill all those guidelines.
If you can think of a better one, by all means, help us out.

Or you can just contradict my post by itself and not really offer a viable solution to the question. Your call.

Didn't mean to almost start a flame war. Different rifles for different needs. Funderb was correct in answering the OP's question. I was being a smart alec. Carry on.

In that case, AR in 50 Beowulf!

We all want the "CQB sniper rifle".

I spent 10 years trying to find one, and failed.

There is simply no one rifle that does everything, just rifles that do some tasks better than others.

I would be more concerned about being able to spot targets at 200+ yards first, then making sure I could hit them.

I would also want more accuracy, snap shooting offhand means that you might get 6MOA with a 1-2MOA rifle; The shooter's skill counts for a great deal in this...

Just a couple points to ponder.

I wasn't referring to you, wayneconrad, your post actually made me laugh. It was briansmith's post that was a little more grating than i like to read on break amid frustrating chemical formula work.

The shooter must be honest and factor in his own limitations as to age and "eyesight." Speaking only for myself, I'll include the "pucker-factor", at ranges up to 100yds I'll grab an AK74 in 5.56 using an Ultimak rail and an EOtech sight for fast "social interaction." From 100 out to 200 yds my flat top Bushy with an ACOG TA-01 and a 4# single stage trigger enable me identify and hit with the same ammo, 855. Yes, I know all about the 77gr, however, when was the last time Dick's had a sale on it? After 200 yds, the 308 rules, where increased mass makes all the difference. Now there are many whose "eyes" are younger and skill with a rifle much better than this old bi-focal fart, however I've learned my limitations for my age, and as the saying goes; I'm not as good as I once was, but "just once" I can be as good as I ever was.

You parameters are quite close. I agree that the only weapon that will do all three is the M1A/FAL etc. My choice is a M4 type AR that is sighted in at 50 yards that gives me a 200 yard battle zero and will make hits out to 300. For GP work it will do just fine. But, if you really think that you the chance of having to hit at 500 you can forget it, .308 territory all the way. Some of the shorter M1A's fill the size gap quite nicely and little real effectiveness is lost by shortening a few inches.

Sounds like you need an AR and a bolt gun in a 300 caliber.

For the record, AK47's get a bad rap because they are seldom shot as bench guns. The AK is more accurate than some are willing to let it be... probably due to the need to empty that 30-rounder. My SA85 yields 10 shot groups about the size of a baseball @100 yds.

Over "time" I've observed that round count increases as distance decreases. Under 100 yds the AK 74 can dump a lot of rounds without having to keep the BCG dripping wet. After 100 yds shooters "slow down" and somehow preceive the threat (rightly or wrongly) as being less imminent. I think both the AK and the AR would serve the under 200 yd purpose, however you post from CO so I can see you wanting a good Springfield in 308 for those 300 plus shots. Find and attend a "3-gun" match in your area, and observe what people are using. Then attend a "high power" match, ask questions and introduce yourself; the only thing a "shooter" enjoys more than shooting is "justifing" his purchase to a newby.

Being an old paratrooper, I am not one to see things the same way other people do. So, if you want to improve the accuracy of your AK type rifle... Have you thought about adding a scope to it? I am talking about a decent 4X scope. Nothing expensive. You might also consider a red dot too. Both types of scopes could help improve your shooting problems for accuracy out beyond 200 meters. A simple scope replaces the metal sights as a more accurate sighting system.

A couple of years ago I was at a combat rifle match; windy, dusty, and hot. the targets were "Crazy Ivans" at 200 yards and under the conditions even the young guys with irons could NOT get usable sight pictures on them. That was the day I started thinking about getting an ACOG. I am only running a 1.5 X on an M4gery. The targets I use are military "E" torso targets and I do my own creative camo patterns on them depending on the weather and terrain conditions. Sometimes I almost get too good at it. Today I was working this combo at 300 yards in a crosswind with dust in my eyes, and without the optic I would never have been able to even see the target.

And if you can't see it, you sure aren't going to hit it...

I concur with the M4 being good in its envelope, with a M14 style rifle taking over when the M4 runs out of gas. Unfortunately good gunbearers are hard to find when you need one.

7.62 NATO is overkill at close range and at long range you are probably never going to see a target. The M14 also 'gasp' is a long weapon that's ill suited to close range urban combat and is a pain to use around vehicles.

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...and carrying around 3 weapons for different ranges is practical I have shot out to 300 yrds and I could see the targets

Need I also mention the difference in the number of rounds that can be carried for an equal weight of 5.56NATO or 7,62NATO?

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Need I mention it generally takes an extra 2-3 shots to bring someone down with 5.56


People always turn into armchair commandos when these threads come up and stray from the original posters question.


He asked

what .308 self loader will do 1moa and be field reliable?

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The M14 is the perfect answer. More accurate than a Dragunov, and far cheaper. Or if you are talking fantisy and not something you are looking to buy, i believe I read somewhere that the PSG-1 is the most accurate auto-loader developed.

With respect to effective range, I believe that deals with lethality of the bullet at those ranges, not actual practicality of making a shot

strangely nobody in the UK goes on about how weak the 5.56 round is but then it gets fired out of a bull pup with a decent barrel length