Ex-Air Marshall:Air Marshall Training a National Disgrace
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Gunnerpalace
Member
I approve of that idea, a sort of Reserve flight security it could be called.
WayneConrad
Member
Only a few years ago, due to mismanagement, it was easy to spot the air marshals. Sweetie did it pretty often. On those flights where she did not spot them, there probably wasn't one. It was that obvious.
Could their management still be dumb as a stump? I can believe it.
Could their management still be dumb as a stump? I can believe it.
rainbowbob
Member
Wait a minute...You're going to pay them to let you be an air marshall?
Air Marshal? 
The only thing that has changed post 9/11 with regard to homeland security is additional baggage screening at the airport. We are essentially no safer today than pre 9/11 and there is no plan for coordinating effectively between federal, state and local first responders after a major attack and we certainly don’t need to mention the shortage of equipment & training for first responders. The Air Marshals’ are mostly ineffective. The program is PR feel-good stuff for the public.
The only thing that has changed post 9/11 with regard to homeland security is additional baggage screening at the airport. We are essentially no safer today than pre 9/11 and there is no plan for coordinating effectively between federal, state and local first responders after a major attack and we certainly don’t need to mention the shortage of equipment & training for first responders. The Air Marshals’ are mostly ineffective. The program is PR feel-good stuff for the public.
Aguila Blanca
Member
If the Feds were serious about air travel security, they would establish some fairly basic way to verify that CCW holders are not security threats (perhaps a low-level security check, like the National Agency Check I went through for a Secret clearance when I was in the Army), and then allow those CCW holders who pass the check to carry when flying.
Simple.
Which, of course, is why it won't happen. It doesn't create a new agency and give some political appointee a big budget and a huge department to control, so it has no sales appeal inside the beltway.
Simple.
Which, of course, is why it won't happen. It doesn't create a new agency and give some political appointee a big budget and a huge department to control, so it has no sales appeal inside the beltway.
Ghost Tracker
Member
Heck, I WANT the best & toughest to be in the U.S. Air Marshal Service. But, since we're still operating in a free-market economy, we've got to PAY them at least as well as the Private Sector is willing to offer. As the old racing saying reminds us..."Speed costs money. How fast do you wanna' go?"
Destructo6
Member
Nice Mad Max quote.
Pay isn't really a great factor as far as these guys leaving the FAMs. A lot of the initial post-9/11 FAMs left other federal LE positions and received some sort of pay incentive to do so.
A ton of the FAMs came from the Border Patrol right after 9/11. They were promised and, for a time, received a pretty nice deal. It went something like 3 days of long flights, 1 day of training, and 1 day of admin time per work week. They were taking the kinds of flights that would be most risky to have hijacked (big plane, lots of passengers, and lots of fuel).
Later, some FBI higher-ups took over the reigns and wanted to boost numbers. So, instead of doing fewer flights on large juicy targets, they were taking lots of flights on commuters. Eg from Las Vegas to Phoenix to LA to Reno, back to Vegas. Also, their admin and training days were cut down drastically, in order to get in more short flights.
So, numbers up, morale drastically down, and mission not really any better accomplished than before.
That's pretty universal, according to the 20 or so former FAMs that have I've spoken with and know.
Ghost Tracker
Member
Mad Max stole the quote from the legendary Junior Johnson (who stole it from someone even older) 
.
You obviously know a LOT more about the Air Marshall situation than do I. But the various (all) Government Service organizations need to realize what we employers in the Private Sector already know. If you want to RECRUIT & KEEP the best pros available, you've got to PAY & TREAT them...like you KNOW they're the BEST. You won't fool them & they won't fool themselves. Skilled, smart, honest, capable folks are getting harder & harder to find. Ditto for people to MANAGE those folks. When you throw into the mix the general apathy of Public Service Administrators AND the legislators who fund them...it's no surprise the morale & performance levels are disappointing to both the Marshals AND the people who depend on them. Again, it's bureaucrats (lower & higher level) who keep the front-line from doing their job. It almost always is! Leadership (like crap) runs downhill. Responsibility, however, runs from bottom to top.
. You obviously know a LOT more about the Air Marshall situation than do I. But the various (all) Government Service organizations need to realize what we employers in the Private Sector already know. If you want to RECRUIT & KEEP the best pros available, you've got to PAY & TREAT them...like you KNOW they're the BEST. You won't fool them & they won't fool themselves. Skilled, smart, honest, capable folks are getting harder & harder to find. Ditto for people to MANAGE those folks. When you throw into the mix the general apathy of Public Service Administrators AND the legislators who fund them...it's no surprise the morale & performance levels are disappointing to both the Marshals AND the people who depend on them. Again, it's bureaucrats (lower & higher level) who keep the front-line from doing their job. It almost always is! Leadership (like crap) runs downhill. Responsibility, however, runs from bottom to top.
Regardless of what course of fire they're currently using, the FAMs training is more involved and complete than the majority of programs seen across the nation, if not world. And as pointed put, there is much more to it than being able to shoot well, which, as a whole, they value more than most.
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pbearperry
Member
The Government at this point is totally unable to accomplish any task be it simple or difficult.Red tape slows everything down to a crawl,and all the Bosses are given the jobs as favors,not because they are competant.Any questions?
frankie_the_yankee
Member
You guys dump on FAM's all you want. I taught an NRA Basic Pistol class to a police Explorer troop a couple of years ago. The troop leader (a cop) brought a friend along to serve as an RO. The guy happened to be an FAM.
After the course work was done we all did some informal shooting. FWIW, the FAM guy was absolutely lights out. One of the best draw and fire shooters I had ever seen.
So go ahead, rag all you want. But if you're on a flight and trouble breaks out, you'd want this guy on board for sure.
After the course work was done we all did some informal shooting. FWIW, the FAM guy was absolutely lights out. One of the best draw and fire shooters I had ever seen.
So go ahead, rag all you want. But if you're on a flight and trouble breaks out, you'd want this guy on board for sure.
After 9/11 when the Air Marshal program was revitalized there was a wave of officers from other federal law enforcement agencies who join the Air Marshal program because it became so high profile. After a few months most of these new FAMs realized they made a big mistake. Having to fly on an airliner on a daily basis is terrible and boring. Most went back to their old jobs. Also, once steel cockpit doors were installed on planes the need for Air Marshals dropped as well.
CypherNinja
Member
Standing Wolf said:
Sigged.
LoadedDrum
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Don't mess with the Zohan.
Chris McClinch
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Where in this thread has this been said or even hinted at? The discussion of physical fitness standards was raised in the context of other sets of law enforcement standards that have been lowered to let less-qualified candidates qualify. The original post on the subject had nothing to do with tying physical fitness to shooting ability, and neither has any other post in this thread other than yours.
jeff-10
Member
The problem is we have a huge military, local and federal police force and only so many people to choose from to man these positions. If you think there are a bunch of men who are a cross between Jerry Miculek and Tito Ortiz waiting to sign up for these positions you are wrong. For the most part its employees in places like TSA and the Bureau of Prisons that are interested in these types of jobs. Try finding a couple hundred adult Americans who can run 5 kilometers do a hundred push-ups and be trained to shoot like champs. It isn't easy.
Chris McClinch
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It's even more difficult when you consider that the average candidate isn't going to leave money on the table to become an air marshal. For a screener or a guard, a position as an air marshal isn't a pay cut. For your former soldier or former police officer, the air marshal service pays less than you could make in the private sector.
tommytrauma
Member
I haven't seen such a belief put forth. However...
I perfom fine motor tasks under significant stress routimely as part of my job, often after having to physically exert myself. A solid level of underlying physical fitness is a huge asset in being able to do so.
If a person wants to be able to accurately shoot when his symathetic nervous systen is all riles up, being in shape only makes sense. An employer looking for such has to set benchmarks and standards.
As a seasoned flier who has traveled the world many times, I can tell you that I wouldn't want a FAM job for nothing.
Anyone flown lately and experienced the low morale of airline employees ? Anyone had their bags lost ? Anyone experience slow and miserable service on board a long haul flight ? Anyone had their flight canceled and been rerouted through God knows where to get to their destination ?
Forget it. I wouldn't want this job for nothing. There was a time when flying was really something to experience. You dressed up to board a plane and once on board was treated with respect, plenty of smiles and great service.
Now days, because of low fares, you have the Greyhound bus crowd flying in pajama's, some are half drunk, screaming for service and acting like spoiled brats. The rest wouldn't understand airline travel etiquette if it bit them in the a*&.
No thanks, they can keep their FAM job. I have a lot of respect for these guys and gals who do it. I get stressed out of my mind flying from FL to Michigan from just wondering if I will arrive during that week and where my bags may end up.
JMHO,
Chris
Anyone flown lately and experienced the low morale of airline employees ? Anyone had their bags lost ? Anyone experience slow and miserable service on board a long haul flight ? Anyone had their flight canceled and been rerouted through God knows where to get to their destination ?
Forget it. I wouldn't want this job for nothing. There was a time when flying was really something to experience. You dressed up to board a plane and once on board was treated with respect, plenty of smiles and great service.
Now days, because of low fares, you have the Greyhound bus crowd flying in pajama's, some are half drunk, screaming for service and acting like spoiled brats. The rest wouldn't understand airline travel etiquette if it bit them in the a*&.
No thanks, they can keep their FAM job. I have a lot of respect for these guys and gals who do it. I get stressed out of my mind flying from FL to Michigan from just wondering if I will arrive during that week and where my bags may end up.
JMHO,
Chris
"It's even more difficult when you consider that the average candidate isn't going to leave money on the table to become an air marshal. For a screener or a guard, a position as an air marshal isn't a pay cut. For your former soldier or former police officer, the air marshal service pays less than you could make in the private sector."
Most military and LEO personnel would experience a significant pay increase in accepting a position as a FAM, if not in the first few years, over all. If you see a FAM, you're seeing a low 6 figure g-man, most likely.
Is there an avenue available in the private sector for former military and LEO personnel? Certainly, and the incentives can be impressive. But there aren't that many such oportunities and... those taking them are typically out of the game at that point, anyway. They are "golden parachute" positions, more or less, for the few. IN the game? There's a relatively short list of non-supervisory 6 figure LEO jobs and FAMs are on it.
But there's more to life than pay, and that's the root of any hiring and retention problems the FAM program may or may not have.
Most military and LEO personnel would experience a significant pay increase in accepting a position as a FAM, if not in the first few years, over all. If you see a FAM, you're seeing a low 6 figure g-man, most likely.
Is there an avenue available in the private sector for former military and LEO personnel? Certainly, and the incentives can be impressive. But there aren't that many such oportunities and... those taking them are typically out of the game at that point, anyway. They are "golden parachute" positions, more or less, for the few. IN the game? There's a relatively short list of non-supervisory 6 figure LEO jobs and FAMs are on it.
But there's more to life than pay, and that's the root of any hiring and retention problems the FAM program may or may not have.
FourTeeFive
Member
All you need is a plane full of falling plates...
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/world_marksmanship_record.shtm
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/world_marksmanship_record.shtm
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