For Discussion - The Tueller Drill and AOJ(P)

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BullfrogKen

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This is a long, two part article about knives and confrontations with the responding officers.


http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/ForceScience/articles/102828

May 23, 2005

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? (Part 1)

Part 1 of a 2-Part Series


For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.

Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.

The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

Recently a Force Science News member, a deputy sheriff from Texas, suggested that "it's time for a fresh look" at the underlying principles of edged-weapon defense, to see if they are "upheld by fresh research." He observed that "the knife culture is growing, not shrinking," with many people, including the homeless, "carrying significant blades on the street." He noted that compared to scientific findings, "anecdotal evidence is not good enough when an officer is in court defending against a wrongful death claim because he felt he had to shoot some[body] with a knife at 0-dark:30 a.m."

As a prelude to more extensive studies of edged-weapon-related issues, the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato has responded by reexamining the 21-Foot Rule, arguably the most widely taught and commonly remembered element of edged-weapon defense.

After testing the Rule against FSRC's landmark findings on action-reaction times and conferring with selected members of its National and Technical Advisory Boards, the Center has reached these conclusions, according to Executive Director Dr. Bill Lewinski:

  1. Because of a prevalent misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted.
  2. When properly understood, the 21-Foot Rule is still valid in certain limited circumstances.
  3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient.
  4. The weapon that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can't be relied upon to protect them in many cases.
  5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.


In this installment of our 2-part series, we'll examine the first two points. The others will be explained in Part 2.


1. MISINTERPRETATION

"Unfortunately, some officers and apparently some trainers as well have 'streamlined' the 21-Foot Rule in a way that gravely distorts its meaning and exposes them to highly undesirable legal consequences," Lewinski says. Namely, they have come to believe that the Rule means that a subject brandishing an edged weapon when positioned at any distance less than 21 feet from an officer can justifiably be shot.

For example, an article on the 21-Foot Rule in a highly respected LE magazine states in its opening sentence that "a suspect armed with an edged weapon and within twenty-one feet of a police officer presents a deadly threat." The "common knowledge" that "deadly force against him is justified" has long been "accepted in police and court circles," the article continues.

Statements like that, Lewinski says, "have led officers to believe that no matter what position they're in, even with their gun on target and their finger on the trigger, they are in extreme danger at 21 feet. They believe they don't have a chance of surviving unless they preempt the suspect by shooting.

"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.

"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."

Lewinski believes the misconception of the 21-Foot Rule has become so common that some academies and in-service training programs now are reluctant to include the Rule as part of their edged-weapon defense instruction for fear of non-righteous shootings resulting.

"When you talk about the 21-Foot Rule, you have to understand what it really means when fully articulated correctly in order to judge its value as a law enforcement concept," Lewinski says. "And it does not mean 'less than 21feet automatically equals shoot.'"


2. VALIDITY

In real-world encounters, many variables affect time, which is the key component of the 21-Foot Rule. What is the training skill and stress level of the officer? How fast and agile is he? How alert is he to preliminary cues to aggressive movement? How agile and fast is the suspect? Is he drunk and stumbling, or a young guy in a ninja outfit ready to rock and roll? How adept is the officer at drawing his holstered weapon? What kind of holster does he have? What's the terrain? If it's outdoors, is the ground bumpy or pocked with holes? Is the suspect running on concrete, or on grass, or through snow and across ice? Is the officer uphill and the suspect downhill, or vice versa? If it's indoors, is the officer at the foot of stairs and the suspect above him, or vice versa? Are there obstacles between them? And so on.

These factors and others can impact the validity of the 21-Foot Rule because they affect an attacking suspect's speed in reaching the officer, and the officer's speed in reacting to the threatening charge.

The 21-Foot Rule was formulated by timing subjects beginning their headlong run from a dead stop on a flat surface offering good traction and officers standing stationary on the same plane, sidearm holstered and snapped in. The FSRC has extensively measured action and reaction times under these same conditions. Among other things, the Center has documented the time it takes officers to make 20 different actions that are common in deadly force encounters. Here are some of the relevant findings that the FSRC applied in reevaluating the 21-Foot Rule:

Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.

The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.

For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.

Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

But many unpredictable variables that are inevitable in the field prevent a precise, all-encompassing truism from being fashioned from controlled "laboratory" research.

"If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, 'Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why'd you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?'"

Be able to articulate why you felt yourself or other innocent party to be in "imminent or immediate life-threatening jeopardy and why the threat would have been substantially accentuated if you had delayed," Everett advises. You need specifically to mention the first articulable motion that indicated the subject was about to attack and was beyond your ability to influence verbally."

And remember: No single 'rule' can arbitrarily be used to determine when a particular level of force is lawful. The 21-Foot Rule has value as a rough guideline, illustrating the reactionary curve, but it is by no means an absolute.

"The Supreme Court's landmark use-of-force decision, in Graham v. Connor, established a 'reasonableness' standard," Everett reminds. "You'll be judged ultimately according to what a 'reasonable' officer would have done. All of the facts and circumstances that make up the dynamics between you and the subject will be evaluated."

Of course, some important facts may be subtle and now widely known or understood. That's where FSRC's unique findings on lethal-force dynamics fit in. Explains Lewinski: "The FSRC's research will add to your ability to articulate and explain the facts and circumstances and how they influenced your decision to use force."
 
part 2

http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907

June 13, 2005

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? (Part 2)

Part 2 of a 2-Part Series

EDITOR'S NOTE: For the record, the 21-Foot Rule, when accurately stated, says that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with an edged weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet. Thus, when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet you need to have your gun out and ready to shoot before he starts rushing you or else you risk being set upon and injured or killed before you can draw your sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

In Part 1 of this special series we reported on how the 21-Foot Rule, one of the core training components of edged-weapon defense, stands up when assessed against landmark findings about action-reaction times documented by the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato. We explained:

1. Because of misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted, but

2. When properly understood, the Rule is still valid in certain circumstances.

Now in this final installment of our 2-part series we discuss additional conclusions regarding edged-weapon defense, namely:

3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient.

4. Weapons that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can't be relied upon to protect them in many cases.

5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.

Here's what FSRC's executive director and selected members of the Center's National and Technical Advisory Boards have to say on these topics:


3. MORE DISTANCE. "In reality, the 21-Foot Rule--by itself--may not provide officers with an adequate margin of protection," says Dr. Bill Lewinski, FSRC's executive director. "It's easily possible for suspects in some circumstances to launch a successful fatal attack from a distance greater than 21 feet."

Among other police instructors, John Delgado, retired training officer for the Miami-Dade (FL) PD, has extended the 21-Foot Rule to 30 feet. "Twenty-one feet doesn't really give many officers time to get their gun out and fire accurately," he says. "Higher-security holsters complicate the situation, for one thing. Some manufacturers recommend 3,000 pulls to develop proficiency with a holster. Most cops don't do that, so it takes them longer to get their gun out than what's ideal. Also shooting proficiency tends to deteriorate under stress. Their initial rounds may not even hit."

Beyond that, there's the well-established fact that a suspect often can keep going from momentum, adrenalin, chemicals and sheer determination, even after being shot. "Experience informs us that people who are shot with a handgun do not fall down instantly nor does the energy of a handgun round stop their forward movement," states Chris Lawrence, team leader of DT training at the Ontario (Canada) Police College and an FSRC Technical Advisory Board member. Says Lewinski: "Certain arterial or spinal hits may drop an attacker instantly. But otherwise a wounded but committed suspect may have the capacity to continue on to the officer's location and complete his deadly intentions."

That's one reason why tactical distractions, which we'll discuss in a moment, should play an important role in defeating an edged-weapon attack, even when you are able to shoot to defend yourself.

"When working with bare-minimum margins, any delay in an officer responding to a deadly threat can equate to injury or death," reinforces attorney and use-of-force trainer Bill Everett, an FSRC National Advisory Board member. "So the officer must key his or her reaction to the first overt act indicating that a lethal attack is coming.

"More distance and time give the officer not only more tactical options but also more opportunity to confirm the attacker's lethal intention before selecting a deadly force response."


4. MISPLACED CONFIDENCE. Relying on OC or a Taser for defeating a charging suspect is probably a serious mistake. Gary Klugiewicz, a leading edged-weapon instructor and a member of FSRC's National Advisory Board, points out that firing out Taser barbs may be an effective option in dealing with a threatening but STATIONARY subject. But depending on this force choice to stop a charging suspect could be disastrous.

With fast, on-rushing movement, "there's a real chance of not hitting the subject effectively and of not having sufficient time" for the electrical charge--or for a blast of OC--to take effect before he is on you, Klugiewicz says.

Lewinski agrees, adding: "A rapid charge at an officer is a common characteristic of someone high on chemicals or severely emotionally disturbed. More research is needed, but it appears that when a Taser isn't effective it is most often with these types of suspects."

Smug remarks about offenders foolishly "bringing a knife to a gunfight" betray dangerous thinking about the ultimate force option, too. Some officers are cockily confident they'll defeat any sharp-edged threat because they carry a superior weapon: their service sidearm. This belief may be subtly reinforced by fixating on distances of 21 or 30 feet, as if this is the typical reaction space you'll have in an edged-weapon encounter.

The truth is that where edged-weapon attacks are concerned, "close-up confrontations are actually the norm," points out Sgt. Craig Stapp, a firearms trainer with the Tempe (AZ) P.D. and a member of FSRC's Technical Advisory Board. "A suspect who knows how to effectively deploy a knife can be extremely dangerous in these circumstances. Even those who are not highly trained can be deadly, given the close proximity of the contact, the injury knives are capable of, and the time it takes officers to process and react to an assault.

"At close distances, standing still and drawing are usually not the best tactics to employ and may not even be possible." At a distance of 10 feet, a subject is less than half a second away from making the first cut on an officer, Lewinski's research shows. Therefore, rather than relying on a holstered gun, officers must be trained in hands-on techniques to deflect or delay the use of the knife, to control it and/or to remove it from the attacker's grasp, or to buy time to get their gun out. These methods have to be simple enough to be learned by the average officer.

Two techniques that bear reinforcement are illustrated in the well-known training video "Surviving Edged Weapons", for which Gary Klugiewicz was a technical consultant. One is a deflection technique called Sweep and Disengage. The other is a tactic for controlling the attacker's weapon hand, called by the acronym G.U.N. (Grab...Undo...Neutralize).

Stapp strongly believes that training in edged-weapon defense should prepare an officer to deal psychologically with getting cut or stabbed, a realistic probability with lag time, close encounters and desperate control attempts. "Officers need to be trained to continue to fight," Stapp says. "They will not have time to stop and assess how severe the wound is. You don't want them in the mind-set, 'I've been cut, I'm going to die.' They must remain focused on stopping the attack, taking out the guy who is the threat to them."

Checking yourself over for injury after the offender is subdued is important, too, Klugiewicz says. "Some survivors of edged-weapon attacks report that they were not aware of being cut or stabbed when the injury occurred. They thought they had just been punched and didn't realize what really happened until later."


5. TRAINING. "Assuming it is presented accurately and in context with the many variables that shape knife encounters, the 21-Foot Rule can be a valuable training aid," Lewinski says. "As a role-playing exercise, it provides a dramatic and memorable demonstration of how fast an offender can close distance, and it can motivate officers to improve their performance skills."

Experiment with it and you may conclude, like Delgado, that 21 feet is not enough of a safety margin for your troops.

You might also use 21-Foot Rule exercises to test tactical methods for imposing lag time on offenders in order to buy more reaction time for officers. These could range from using or creating obstacles (standing behind a tree or shoving a chair between you and the offender) to moving yourself strategically. You're probably familiar with the Tactical L, for example, in which an officer moves laterally to a charging offender's line of attack. With the right timing, this surprises and slows the attacker as he processes the movement and scrambles to redirect his assault, and gives the officer opportunity to draw and get on target.

Lewinski favors a variation called the Tactical J. Here, instead of moving 90 degrees off line, the officer moves obliquely forward at a 45-degree angle to the oncoming offender. "This tends to be more confusing to the suspect and requires more of a radical change on his part to come after you," Lewinski says. "But the timing has to be such that the suspect is fully committed to his charge and can't readily adjust to what you've done. That takes lots of practice with a wide variety of training partners."

If nothing else, training with the 21-Foot Rule will help officers better estimate just how far 21 feet is. Without a good deal of practice, most can't accurately gauge that distance, Lewinski says, and thus tend to sabotage appropriate defensive reactions.

Don't forget, though, that most edged-weapon attacks are "up close and personal." That means training must include effective empty-hand-control techniques, close quarters shooting drills and weapon retention. "We need to develop the ability to draw our sidearm, get on target and GET HITS extremely fast," while moving as a diversionary measure if possible, says Stapp. "Close-range shooting--under 10 feet--will most effectively be accomplished when an officer has developed the ability to get on target 'by feel,' without using his sights."

Lewinski also recommends drills to imprint rapid reholstering techniques. Reholstering may become necessary if there's a sudden change in threat level--say the offender throws his weapon down and is no longer presenting an imminent threat justifying deadly force--and the officer needs both hands free to deal with him.

There's little doubt that the "knife culture" and related attacks on officers are dangerously flourishing. Edged-weapon assaults are a staple of the news reports of police incidents from across the U.S. and Canada on the website of FSRC's strategic partner, PoliceOne.com. Recently an officer in New York City was slashed in the face during a fight that broke out on a man-with-a-gun call...in Ohio, a state trooper fatally shot a berserk motorist who charged him with a hatchet...another offender, who called 911 in Pennsylvania to report he was having a heart attack, ended up shot 13 times and killed after commands and OC failed to stop him from lunging at a trooper with a chain saw...in Calgary (Ont.) a blood-soaked man waved a bloody butcher knife over his head and charged at constables who responded to a domestic...a suspected rapist attacked a Chicago detective with a screwdriver after luring him into an interrogation room by asking for a cigarette...in the reception area of a California prison, an inmate serving time for trying to kill a cop stabbed a correctional officer to death with a shank...in Idaho, an out-of-control teenager punched holes in the walls of his house with a 15-inch bayonet, then turned on a responding officer with the blade and sliced his uniform before the cop shot him....

"Given today's environment, rather than draw back on edged-weapon training, officers and agencies should be expanding it," Lewinski declares. "Edged-weapon attacks are serious and should be taken seriously by trainers, officers and administrators alike. Finding out what works best in the way of realistic tactical defenses and then training those tactics as broadly as possible has never been more needed."

FSRC is currently involved in additional research on the dynamics of edged-weapon confrontations and plans a major report on its findings before the end of this year.
 
AOJ(P) and discussion

This article seems to reinforce what we talk about in Study Group – that justification is not a checklist; it is defined by the totality of the circumstances.

We have had debates both within our Group and with trainers at the NTI roundtable on whether Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, (Preclusion) - AOJ(P) is a valid justification model for the Armed Citizen. AOJ(P) was developed during the 60's and 70's for the newly developed Police Science majors offered at colleges and universities.

AOJ(P) is now often used to communicate the concept of Justification to Citizen students in the shooting classes they take. It serves as a convenient way to communicate a complex legal concept to the layperson in a distilled form that he can understand and remember. The difficulty with using AOJ(P) to teach that concept is the same this article points out: students often walk away with the understanding that justification is defined as a checklist.

"If he has this and does that, then I can shoot him."

The totality of the circumstances determines whether an Armed Citizen's response is justified. Those who will investigate the aftermath of a shooting will attempt to determine whether a subjective interpretation of the circumstances meet an objective criteria for justification. AOJ(P) was never developed for the Armed Citizen. It was developed for an Officer with a duty to perform - bringing a suspect into custody.

In fact, it was never developed to provide real time guidance for the Officer with a duty to perform. Certainly Officers serving before AOJ(P) was adopted learned when and where shooting someone was appropriate. They learned it through a mentorship program, and were expected to use good judgement. Unfortunately, "use good judgement" is a subjective policy.

AOJ(P) was developed to provide objective guidance on when the department would support an Officer's actions, and to protect the Captain and Mayor when he stepped outside it.


Just like discussion of the Tueller Drill here, misinterpretations arise when policies and guidance come to mean a license to act.
 
Ken...

Interesting study. One interesting point brought up was it might be a good idea to run toward the attacker at a 45 degree angle. When an attacker has made the decision to engage, running full speed ahead, much like an alligator, it's difficult to quickly change directions mentally and physically. Take his momentary advantage away and turn it against him. Turn your reaction into an action and force him to react.

He will not expect you to run toward him and away from his weapon hand.

Personal experience has proven this to be a sound tactic.

Too often people read or hear something, and because it's from a credible source, do not dissect the concept and apply it to their own situations, physical/mental strengths and weaknesses, et cetera.

Think, question and prepare for the before and the after of the conflict.

Biker
 
Biker,

We've practiced moving away, to the side, and forward at a 45 in our drills. We've also evaluated moving straight forward and through the attacker. There are times moving forward creates more options, although it seems to make the least amount of sense.


Most of the times a trap is set for us, the violent criminal actor(s) are working on a plan set up by experience: "If I do this, he'll do that because I've made him uncomfortable. Then you do this, and I'll pull my ______ out, and we'll jack him up. He'll have moved back here into this hole, and we'll have him trapped."

Backing up from a threat is a pretty natural human response. Its also the most widely taught movement in defense classes; sometimes the layout of the range doesn't safely allow the students do anything else. Unfortunately this is what experienced VCA's expect and plan for.


Moving someplace else besides backwards opens up options. It also causes the VCA's to reorient and readjust to an unplanned act. Moving backwards is slow, and doesn't even require an aggressor reorient on us.

Unless you can back up at around 1200 feet per second, I'd suggest its a poor response.

Moving forward, especially at close distance, satisfies a few goals. The aggressor will have to reorient. It interrupts the plan in a big way, and can help get us out of that hole. And if the aggressors do reorient and re-engage, we have a lot of information about their intentions. Enough to articulate why we did what we did to them.



Biker, somehow I'm not surprised personal experience already taught you that moving forward can be a good tactic. :cool:
 
Ken ,
Great Thread! Thanks for posting this study.

I cannot recall what year Dennis Tueller came out with his findings.

I came up and we concerned ourselves on reading environments, the criminals, and whether they were drunk, high, both, and other factors such as age, gender and body language.
Then we each had our age, gender, skill levels to "read" and apply to these lessons we shared.

Mentors & Elders shared, Individuals have to be brutally honest , and access themselves, as to what constitutes a "safe distance" to employ their skills sets to handle a situation.
Firearms were one tool, not the tool to handle situations.

Bottom line is, what I see as a potential threat , with my skill sets, may require more distance, to allow me time to handle, than someone else with better skill sets.


In addition, since we had LEO, Military, and other professionals, we Civilians were Mentored to as well.

LEOs for instance have a duty to run toward harms way, and they have protocol they need to adhere to, in order to fit into guidelines that protects the Dept of liability, and themselves in reviews and other actions.

AOJ(P) is a guideline pretty much for LEOs.

Civilians, like myself, were mentored another set of guidelines in handling situations.
Civilians do not have a duty to run toward harms way.
A Grand Jury, or Jury of one's Peers, means a civilian has a different protocol or set of guidelines, they must consider, with regard to liability and other legal matters.

My take is, there is no absolutes.
Just because it is said, does not make it so.
A criminal hyped up on Angel Dust might cover 21 steps in less than one second, and a young officer that has not practiced with his issued holster, that is designed to keep him/her from having a gun grabbed, might take them 2 seconds to get the first shot onto target.

It might only take a civilian only .8 seconds to do get his/her first shot off and on target with a holster that is not restrictive, and they practice drawing and firing that gun , from that holster.

It might mean a person, older, with arthritis, honestly now needs 30, or 35 steps distance to get a first shot on target , where 5, 10, 20 years ago, they did not need as much distance.

Sticking with LEO , Civilian, and shooting to stop the threat, both must consider just because "this" happens I can do "that" is false.
I say "false" as each situation is unique, not only the event itself, also the location in the US, and even within jurisdictions within states and how they interpret the "law".


Civilian non gun:
First off Lady Luck is always welcome to show up.

Running at an angle throwing pitchers, napkin dispensers, drink glasses, whatever - making my way to a exit...

Trash can lid and going at them, yelling , screaming , ...
"He crazy, lets get out of here" -

45 degrees in and using a antenna I busted off the nearest vehicle, again using my cussing, yelling , screaming...
"Crazy old man, lets boogie..."
 
disclaimer: i'm no expert and my comments are based on studying Kenpo, Aikido and Iaido since 1990, not actually defending myself from full-value knuckleheads with knives.

I agree with Biker on moving obliquely forward, and not just because i have a certain fondness for the word "oblique".

Logic, for what it's worth is that assuming I'm relatively boxed in (like the traps your study group sets up) I want to keep a certain focus on the known threat and won't want to spare more than a glance or two behind and to the sides. meaning, it would be easy to miss threats behind, or for that matter, trip over something stupid.

better the devil you know, as they say. go where the fight is. i can't speak for street fights, but backing up in MA competition is almost never successful.

besides, as was mentioned, moving forward is NOT what they'd expect


that said, when you move forward at an oblique, your orientation would be critical. i.e. you wouldn't want to face the direction you're moving,
 
Lewinski favors a variation called the Tactical J. Here, instead of moving 90 degrees off line, the officer moves obliquely forward at a 45-degree angle to the oncoming offender. "This tends to be more confusing to the suspect and requires more of a radical change on his part to come after you," Lewinski says. "But the timing has to be such that the suspect is fully committed to his charge and can't readily adjust to what you've done. That takes lots of practice with a wide variety of training partners."

I'll have to alert Iwakabe Sensei that migi naname mai is now being referred to as the "Tactical J". Actually, moving forward at a 45 to your opponent's weak side is a time honored tactic. There are several methods of footwork for doing so, the simplest of which is called hiraki ashi. ;)

Actually, if you take a look at the angling and take into consideration the physiological responses typical of a stressful situation, i.e. tunnel vision, stepping quickly forward at an angle may literally make you disappear from your opponent's field of view. I've related on this forum the "disappearing act" that Steve Obata pulled on me at the Rocky Mountain Kendo Championship in the team competition. (Darn those guys from Oregon)

An aggressive move forward at a 45 forces your opponent to cover a much greater angle in reorienting to your new position than moving back, to the side, or back at an angle. In the case of your moving backward, he merely has to adjust for range, and since you can't move back as quickly as he can move forward, this presents no real problem. Moving to the side is just as slow, and at most he only has to reorient by a few degrees to keep you in his sight. By moving aggressively forward at a 45, you can move as quickly as he can and since you are prepared to adjust you can stay focussed on him. In contrast, he may have to reorient and change his momentum by as much as 115-120 degrees (depending on how quickly and how far you move past him).

The classic migi do (right torso) strike in kendo is a perfect example of this principle. Add to this the hiraki ashi footwork (keeping your body oriented on him as you step) and you can easily get to a "soft spot" in his posture. At that point, pressing your attack has a far greater chance of success, whether you're doing it with your own blade, an impact weapon or a firearm.

But the timing has to be such that the suspect is fully committed to his charge and can't readily adjust to what you've done. That takes lots of practice with a wide variety of training partners.

This would generally be called go no sen timing, which is responding to the attack after it's started. I think probably what he's really after is sen sen no sen, which is a response simultaneous to the attack. He's right, it takes a lot of practice with a wide variety of attackers.
 
Re: Distance and You

For a reference and time line for those don't know, I was born in the mid 50's.
I just turned 53.
I respectfully refer to those persons; ladies and gents, younger and older, and physically limited, that all my life mentored and shared , and passed onto me many things as Mentors & Elders.

I shot handgun at age 3, rifle at age 4 and shotgun at age 5.
My grandma was still alive so I must have been age 5.
This would make this about 1960.

Mentors were assisting some folks, having them try various guns, both semi-auto and revolvers, with different stocks , in different calibers, to see what fit them.

Mr. H has a drill, and this is what these folks were doing.
Loading only 5 rounds, and shooting a piece of paper at 5 yards.
At the signal, these folks from low ready , or if they were at the skill level yet, drawing from the holster.
Five shots on paper and a mechanical stop watch noted the time.
The paper don't lie, it will reveal what that shooter can shoot best in regard to gun platform, caliber, and ammunition loading.

I am a 5 year old kid, and I am asked to stand with my back to these folks.
They were going to repeat this drill, shooting 5 rounds at 5 yard, as quickly and effectively as they could get hits.

I was to run away from them when the "GO" was given, and I was to stop as soon as I heard the first shot.

I am five years old, I don't know anything like the big people do.
Still I saw, everyone was different!

Each person I ran from, had a different distance I obtained by the time they fired that first shot.

"Folks, that is current distance, you own it, and that one applies to you.
It does not matter what some one else's distance is, your distance is what is important".

Those words and similar I have heard over and over and over again.
I have said these words over and over and over again, all these years doing the same thing to persons, assisting them, just as my Mentors & Elders did.

I am 5 years old with my very own .22 revolver and now it it my turn for MY distance.
I have an adult, that is going to run back away from me.
"Focus on the bad guy, and make good hits! I was told to do.
I shot from low ready, and then with my gun sitting on a table and I had pick it up and shoot.

Now keep in mind, these folks were bigger kids than me, teenagers, ladies and gents, some elderly, and some where physically limited.
There was Veterans from previous wars, and Polio Victims.

As I grew up these folks did as well.
So we all saw skill levels change, and how far that distance changed.

Now some mentors , both ladies and gents, had Professional backgrounds.
We saw these change over the years as well.

That lady, a MASH nurse in Korea, who got a first shot off in less than a second, drawing from a holster a 1911.
I did get very far running away from her.
Beat cop, he too got his first shot with his Model 10, his issued gun and issued holster.

Time passes and I am getting older and these folks are too.
It broke my heart, I cried when time, age, physical limits affected these folks and they could not do what they once did.
It hurt!

"It is called life, life is hard , so we now to accept we cannot do as we did, instead learn to do with what we can". - they shared.

We did not use times very often, just sometimes we did.
Mentors & Elders had quite a few serious and hard reasons why they did not want buzzers , signals and times done.


I will not be at your gun fight
- Awerbuck

That was shared coming up , though said various ways.
It does personally matter what anyone else shoots for a gun, or ammunition , or holster, or equipment.
Nor does it matter how fast someone else can shoot.

It matters what I can do, with what tools I have, and one tool is reading people, places and things to give ME as much time as can, to recognize a situation is about to go down and what tools I need to use to handle it.
One tool "might" be a firearm.
To me, and how raised, a firearm is one of the tools, not the tool.

.
 
Yes, I agree with moving forward at an oblique, to get behind the attacker's weapon hand, then arcing to get behind him. It is best to time the movement so that by the time he can react, the defender has just moved, making it more likely the attacker will overshoot the defender's new position. Of course, the defender must constantly be ready to adjust to what the attacker does.

For really good video footage of this timing and oblique movement, look at the "Edged Weapons 2" video from Gunsite, if it is still available. FWIW, this is not a continuation of Gunsite's first volume on the same subject; different instructors, different emphasis; the first volume is about using a knife as a weapon, the second volume is about surviving an edged weapon attack, and defeating a blade-armed adversary, using everything from improvised weapons to firearms.

As for the "21-foot rule," it was silly to attach the word "rule"; it was intended as a drill, to show what can happen if you stand there like your feet are nailed to the floor, and try to draw and fire, and die. Once the drill is used, to open the eyes, you move beyond it
 
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"The Supreme Court's landmark use-of-force decision, in Graham v. Connor, established a 'reasonableness' standard," Everett reminds. "You'll be judged ultimately according to what a 'reasonable' officer would have done. All of the facts and circumstances that make up the dynamics between you and the subject will be evaluated."

I hope that not everyone who is forced to defend his life will be judged by what a sworn police officer--reasonable or not--would have done in the same situation. It's not right to suppose that a situation is the same for an 80-year-old retired man, an 18-year-old college freshman girl, someone in a wheelchair, and a 28-year-old SWAT team member at the height of his powers. Who would advocate that they all be trained the same way, in the same degree, and for the same goal.

That two part article was addressed to police officers and was published for them in a venue for police officers. I wonder about its value to ordinary civilians who may be faced with the need to defend their lives, and whether the article might in fact do them a disservice here by undermining something that already is hard enough for many people to recognize: an attacker armed with a knife or other close contact weapon is potentially life-threatening even from about seven yards away.

Is there really any instructor who trains cops to shoot everyone they see 21 feet or less away from them simply because they see a knife in the person's hand? If so no restaurant, UPS store, or gardening center is safe for the public while the cops are around.
 
Rexster...

The whole point of attacking the attacker is to force him to defend.

Then you call the shots, so to speak.

To react is to be seconds behind the game and the attacker, unless the defender is firmly ensconced, always has the advantage.

Biker
 
The whole point of attacking the attacker is to force him to defend.

That's exactly why the sen sen no sen timing is so good. It takes practice, but if you can sense when your opponent is forming the intention to move (there are definite cues you can pick up, this isn't ESP) and attack him at that instant, you completely disrupt his intention. I've had it happen to me and I've done it to others in practice when the penalty was a good smack over the noggin with a shinai and in real life when the penalty was something broke or cut that you'd rather not have broke or cut. Putting your opponent on the defensive just when he's thinking offense can break his will to fight momentarily. That's the instant you have to grasp and use to finish the encounter.
 
Robert, perhaps you missed the point of the article?


No Robert, I personally know of no instructor who tells his students, "Shoot anyone with a knife once he gets within 7 yards."

What this article illustrates is how guidance gets interpreted by a student to mean just that. And eventually, once its made its rounds long enough, that bad information gets back into the classroom. Only this time, it does get presented by the misguided instructor as, "the rule is once someone gets within 7 yards of you with a knife, you can shoot him."
 
What this article illustrates is how guidance gets interpreted by a student to mean just that. And eventually, once its made its rounds long enough, that bad information gets back into the classroom. Only this time, it does get presented by the misguided instructor as, "the rule is once someone gets within 7 yards of you with a knife, you can shoot him."

I actually adjusted my presentation to stress the correct information that you pointed out for my CCW class this weekend. I've always used that 21 foot distance as an example of the danger zone where, if your gut is telling you something is wrong with someone or their intentions you need to begin taking positive action to avert the situation or place yourself in a position of advantage. I've never told my students that they can shoot someone with a knife inside that distance but I made sure to point out that absent other factors, someone merely having a knife isn't justification to shoot. It seemed to be well received. Thanks, Ken.
 
We've had the same discussion(s) at work about how the "21 foot RULE" isn't really a rule at all.

Obviously there is a huge difference in reaction time between a holstered pistol and having your sights on target. Additionally, other factors come into play, such as availability of cover, subject's actions, etc (and we also use the JOA - Jeapordy, Opportunity, Ability idea for deadly force).

As someone else mentioned, consider stepping outside of the line of the charge from the attacker... A side step is often far more effective for avoiding an attack from a charging knife weilding opponent. Front/back steps keeps you in line with where the subject was aiming for (he just might get to you slightly sooner or later). A side step forces the subject to change directions to engage with you.

Simply put, if I had shot every suspect who came to within twenty one feet of me with a knife, I probably would have already killed 10 people in the line of duty. I could have easily articulated shooting in a number of those instances, but the totality of the circumstances allowed me not to. But, there can be no hesitation when the need is truly there... your life or death can be decided in fractions of a second. Train like you fight, and fight like you train.
 
We've had the same discussion(s) at work about how the "21 foot RULE" isn't really a rule at all.

Agree.

As shared earlier, we did have the name Tueller attached to a exact distance.

To me and others this "rule" never was.
Being honest we shared with folks "back then" and currently, there is distance for "them"..

"We" included Seasoned Cops, and other Professionals.

It does seem Internet has perpetuated some ideologies, to both LEOs and other professionals.
I was assisting armored car guard with shotguns.
Younger folks and of course use Internet.
After about 5 minutes of Meet & Greet, the lesson plan changed, as I chose to get some others that assist to share real world serious considerations.

Oh some older adults get information off Internet and they too have had this
Reality Meeting.

That day with the armored car folks, well they whined and carried on about that Tueller and 21 Foot Rule.
They continued with the issued Model 10 and the issued holsters and ammunition and the PGO shotguns.

Model 10s are old fashioned, only six rounds, holsters don't fit girls, don't fit guys, and they "needed" (wanted) Glocks with hi-cap mags they could top off.
Shotguns were kewl , but they needed (guess) crap hanging off of them.

Honest to goodness, and I had the green light, to send them all home and inform the employer he did not want this bunch being his guards.
I came real close, and others agreed and would have backed me up.


WE did not do shotgun lessons, nor did they get to shoot.
I called their employer and let him know we were going to have to have an extra day, and he was going to pay us for this day we normally did not have to have.

Undoing folks is not easy, but we did.

Seasoned folks like the lady that was from Israel, and of course served in the military.
Retired Swat, and another Active Swat.
Seasoned Sheriffs, both ladies and gents.
One lady sheriff recovering from a minor surgery.
Retired Cop in a wheelchair, recovering from surgery.
Physically Limited folks showed up when we called them...including the blind gentleman, that really did come out and shoot real guns and real bullets.

You can figure out what all we did.
All these folks brought to the Table of Reality, no set rule is going to keep them safe on the street, or in a courtroom.

Lady Luck showed up, and we had a Lady Lawyer show up, and she gave a "legal" lesson, and also the armored car rules she went over.

So "our" bunch actually did shoot, along with share reality.

Armored car bunch changed ideas, which was good, as their attitude and willingness was being watched.
So we did not waste a day, instead invested in this bunch that turned out be some of the best employees this company ever had.
Employer, hated the extra expense, then later asked us to do this extra day with other employees.
Monies invested proved dividends .

Oh them kewl shotguns?
It seems they ain't so kewl, teh Intawebz ain't always correct, one can miss with all them pellets from a target load of #9 at 5 yards, and a BG will mess you up , even if you do have a kewl PGO shotgun in hand.

It scared some, how with a shotgun in hand, they could get messed up by evil with intent to mess them up.

They were shown this with a AR too.
 
Biker, yes, attack the attacker; make him react to you. By your post, I could not tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. I believe we are on the same page. Getting behind the attacker's weapon hand, and then getting behind him, are positions from which to attack, whether it is with a firearm, contact weapon, or empty hands.
 
Good discussion here, avoiding a confrontation by moving off the line of force is a good first technique. If the perp redirects the line of force back on to you, it would seem to make him appear to be the aggressor in a legal sense as well as breaking his initial OODA loop.
Best,
Rob
 
"Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid?"

No, and it has fallen out of favor; that it will take many training regimes as long to move away from it as they took to move toward it is a seperate issue.

The legal standard that will be used, as mentioned, is one of reasonableness. Be able to articulate what was happening and why you acted the way you did. Educating yourself about the variables involved will go a long way toward your ability to accomplish this.
 
One of the nice things about having a bright flashlight in your hand when out at night is that you can flash folks in the face, temporarily dazzling them.

This is one way to gain suprise and take it away from someone else.

When you do that and move elsewhere you are not where you are supposed to be and have gained great advantage.

Plenty of ways to do that, both night and day, a handful of sand or dirt will work fine.

Hardest thing to do is to keep thinking when the adrenaline starts pumping, you do not want to focus on one option to the exclusion of others...

Hope that helps.
 
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