After action report: Tactical Response - The Fight (Force on Force)

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Siderite

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I was at Tactical Response's "The Fight" force-on-force course this past weekend and got a huge eye-opening experience out of it.

Safety
The class started with safety protocols to prevent live weapons from being introduced into the scenarios - everyone, including instructors, gets frisked twice - no one goes to car or gets anything out of a bag without a buddy watching. Even with this, they went over a plan in case something did happen. I really appreciate this "defense in depth" for safety.

Basics
The first drills were a getting-to-know activity for the UTM marker pistols (Glock 19's) we would be using - everyone shoots and everyone gets shot. They set it up as one-shot "duels" between students at 5 yards. Even as simple as it was, the stress level really jumped - I've done IDPA, and even the competition stress isn't the same, racing a clock is self-paced, here someone else is trying to dictate pace (OODA loop). I rushed - too much. I didn't see my sights the first two exchanges - and I didn't hit my opponent. Even for those who did, the point was made that they immediately dropped from ready after shooting - their opponent was still standing, why weren't they ready for that? Many people didn't think to use verbalization skills they had been taught.

Movement got added to this, and I realized a gap in my training - I'd practiced moving and shooting, and shooting moving targets, but never moving and shooting a moving target that is trying to shoot you. The marker rounds sting, and will break exposed skin - but much of the time you don't feel them under the stress.

The Scenarios
These are the core of the course. I'm not going to go into details about the individual scenarios, so as not to ruin some for future students (some stay relatively similar from class to class, others get changed for the specific group of students). The scenarios were realistic - everything would be something that I'd call an activity of daily life. It is important as the student to do these realistically - don't approach every scenario in orange, it isn't how you live your life. The role-players were AWESOME. They immersed me in the scenario to the point where I didn't notice the face-shields. The stress is real - people got "the shakes" afterward, and we were drained at the end of each day (imagine going through several life-threatening situations in a day).

Each person experienes them individually and each finds their own solution - we had several scenarios where the some people shot and others didn't - each unfolds in it's own way. Also, scenarios don't end when the bad guy is down; dialing 911 for help (fake phones) under stress and talking with dispatch is part of the situation.

Lessons
The lessons learned are individual too - you learn something about yourself. Here are a few of mine and some that others in the class shared during the debriefings:

Most important for me: Make sure you test what you think you know. Some of the things I had been taught, and thought were good ideas - didn't pan out.

Movement is good, but it is not enough by itself. It should be purposeful in getting you to safety - find cover.

Make sure you are in a safe location to call for help - several times I lingered at the "scene" where the criminal could have shot me with the weapon in his hand (and did one time, "killing" me).

Make the call yourself - you are the trained individual, and the bystanders have been stressed too. This was a flaw in LFI-I teaching to ask a bystander to call for help (a relic of the days where cell phones were uncommon) - what do you do if a bystander, whom you've just asked to call for medical and police assistance tells dispatch "Some guy just murdered another guy in front of me!" and gives your description as the perp? I tried to talk to the bystander and to get the phone to talk to 911, but that resulted in an believable "Oh, s---! He's coming at me with a gun!" and bolting from the scene.

Shut up. Trying to follow LFI training to talk to responding police, ended badly for me (there may be people for whom it works), but I found that once I started talking I kept talking and said things in the heat of the moment. Keep in mind that I practiced the LFI doctrine regularly, but found that I couldn't keep to it.

Know you got shot, but stay in the fight. One of the other students trained in a martial art where you move with the strikes to absorb the impact - this had gotten so reflexive that he knocked himself over when shot with simunitions. Don't train in something that gives you bad habits.

Know how to use (shoot, reload, clear malfunctions) one-handed. Most of the class opted to use gloves, even though they didn't in real life, because of the frequency with which hands got lit up. I had a situation where I had a double feed (type 3 malfunction) when I only had one hand left.

Keep your gun topped off - especially for me as a 1911 guy (for now, at least, this may change as a result of this course). You run through rounds fast and several times I was asked at the end of the scenario how many rounds were left in my gun - I didn't know (turned out to be 2, 1 and 0 :eek: remaining), and I still had a full, spare mag on my belt.

There are more, but these are the big ones.

Overall
Excellent course 10/10, I really enjoyed it - even though it showed me that some of my prior training wasn't useful. It taught me a lot about myself under stress and areas of training I need to address. I'd recommend it to anyone who carries. It lets you see your mistakes, and learn from them - life is not so forgiving.

Also, the instructor for the class Shay VanVlymen, is a member here under the name: ShackleMeNot.
 
Hi Siderite!

It was great having you in class this weekend. Thank you for your review.

Here are some pics:

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I SO much would like to try that! Do you know if it is offered anywhere in Washington State?

I took a course that included F.A.T.S simulation and was amazed at the stress reaction from that. I can only imagine how stressful (and instructive) "live" re-enactment scenarios with stinging reminders of your mistakes would be.

WOW! And great pics, Shay.
 
ShackleMeNot:

Looks like a good course. What's the meaning of the gloved hand with the blue tape on it? Does that mean that hand is out of commission?

Movement is good, but it is not enough by itself. It should be purposeful in getting you to safety - find cover.

That's one to remember. Move to a position of advantage. Even if it's not something that covers your entire body, say a lamp post or a fire hydrant, it can provide some cover and work as an obstacle to impede the bad guy moving toward you. There have been cases where officers held up clipboards and BG's tried to shoot around the clipboard. Good write up.
 
Even if it's not something that covers your entire body, say a lamp post or a fire hydrant, it can provide some cover and work as an obstacle to impede the bad guy moving toward you.

I'm sure we have all seen the video of the attorney dodging bullets at nearly point-blank range from behind a skinny little tree. He just kept manuevering so that the little tree was between him and the crazy shooter - and lived to talk about it.
 
Personally, I would leave town if everyone looked like Jason Voorhees.

Sorry - I think such FOF is incredibly useful for FOGs like me.
 
Personally, I would leave town if everyone looked like Jason Voorhees.

HA!

On the opposite viewpoint, look at all the cop cars! Wouldn't you feel safe with that much police around? :)

Dope
 
We had a lady come up and ask if we were vandalizing into the day care next door.
:rolleyes:

Yeah, with 3 marked cop cars and a few unmarked as well sitting outside.

AND if we were vandalizing the place, do you think it would be a good idea to walk up and ask us if we were?

:rolleyes:
:uhoh:
:confused:
 
Wow. Not only that, but a bunch of guys in masks, with guns, potentially vandalizing a place and she just walks right up huh?

Yikes. That would be so funny if it weren't so scary.

Dope
 
On the opposite viewpoint, look at all the cop cars! Wouldn't you feel safe with that much police around?

Since when have the law been useful around Jason? Remember when the FBI's HRT (or something) similar blew him up and then he just came back together in the morgue?

BTW, there are video of people walking into convenience store gun fights to shop and waiting in line to pay one one that was seriously on fire.
 
What's the meaning of the gloved hand with the blue tape on it? Does that mean that hand is out of commission?

I completely missed your question yesterday.

I used to tell students that they had a disabled limb. That never lasted under stress. Now I just disable it for them.
 
I can't believe I forgot these in my original post:

Be prepared to shove your pride and ego aside, and just walk away. There are many things that aren't worth fighting over, and even more that are not worth killing/dying over.

Fighting isn't always a good choice, even if you have the legal justification to do so - for the above reason, and for tactical reasons. If you're caught in white (unaware) you might be to far behind the curve to make an effective fight. The role players talked about the OODA loop from their perspective and how in some cases they'd have their guns ready to fire and could leasurely watch you turn, knowing you were drawing, while they perfected their sight picture and lit you up.
 
I was one of the role players last weekend and had a great time meeting Siderite along with all the other students. I've had the opportunity to do a bunch of role playing over the past few years and I absolutely love to see the lights come on as students begin take lessons to heart. Having a bruise where a sims round hits really emphasizes the mistakes you made and serves as a good reminder of what you SHOULD have done. I still remember when I got nailed with a sims round in the heart-box for doing something stupid when I took the class a few years ago. It's a lesson I won't ever forget.


As a role player (and I'd imagine also as the initiator of an actual violent encounter), you're typically WAY ahead in the OODA loop and it's easy to see students' wheels start turning, see their hand start moving to clear a cover garment, see the gun come up, and so on. Sure it only takes 1.5-2 seconds to get a gun into action from concealment but it's an eternity when I've got the drop on a student.


Lessons from FOF:
1) Fighting is a thinking man's game. The decision to fight should be DELIBERATE, not reactionary.
2) MOVE - It's harder to hit a moving target. Think about where you want to be moving to before you beat feet.
3) Putting cover (or concealment) between you and a bad guy is a good thing
4) You don't have to stay RIGHT THERE at the scene of an assault. Move to a safer spot. The closer you are to a bad guy (even one that's bleeding out), the easier it is for them to hurt you.
5) Know how to operate your gun 1-handed, with your non-dominant hand, etc. I'm talking reloads, malfunction clearances, shooting, etc. You can do this at home with dummy rounds easily. I'll stand at my bed and do drills there so I'm not dropping mags loudly on the floor and everything is easier to pick up.
6) Just because you have the legal justification to shoot, doesn't mean that it's a wise thing to do tactically. Conversely, it might be tactically smart to get a gun out / shoot even if it's not 100% legally justified.* See #7
7) The world is NOT Black & White. There's a LOT of grey area out there that we deal with every day.
8) Sighted fire makes for reliable, decent hits. XS Big Dots make sighted fire under the stress of FOF much easier than traditional sights.
9) If students haven't maintained their gun handling skills, under the stress of FOF, they tend to absentmindedly point guns at people that don't need guns pointed at them and their fingers creep on to the trigger. This is a BAD combination.
10) I don't think ANY FOF student, no matter what gun they carry, notices grip angle, trigger weight, finger grooves, etc. on the 3rd gen Glock 17's we use in FOF. Under stress, I'm convinced you could have a 40lb trigger pull and your finger will do what it needs to do to get the rounds into the role player (me) :uhoh: LOL.


Again, great class and stay safe,
Mike
 
Good Force on Force training is one of those paradigm shifts people experience in life. Any serious student of the craft should make it a part of his/her training regime.


Glad to know you are doing this training. I'll make sure to recommend you as another option to folks looking for FoF training.
 
Very true Ken. I'm still processing & integrating things I learned at SouthNarc's ECQC last Oct.

Shay- Are students who have previous non-Tactical Response training allowed into The Fight? Case-by-case basis?
 
There are no prerequisites but students who take The Fight should have had some professional training that covered Mindset, tactics, skills and the legal issues involved in the use of lethal force.
 
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