Apathy and No Guns Signs

Unlike you, I don't care what others do. I won't call them stupid or say that they don't "get it," just think they are wasting their time.

Bogie, thanks for posting this and for your passion on the subject. I obey the law; I do not spend my money with places in which I am unwelcome and I do let the management know about it.

I make it as courteous and as factual as I can and I request a reply. Does it do any good? Sometimes.

When it comes to freedom I subscribe to the thought that it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

You are also right about the cumulative affect of such signs on our youth.

Recently my wife and I were visiting our grandchildren in Arizona; the 7 year old saw me reading my Concealed Carry magazine and said something to the effect that guns were "bad". To her everlasting credit, his mother, my daughter-in-law, corrected him - nicely and factually. She pointed out the benefit of guns to good people and the need for them to ensure both safety and freedom.

Yes, I love that girl and am happy to have her in the family! Guess where the kid got his ideas? School.

To each his own but I choose to make my case to the business owners and I also lobby my elected officials to remove some of the restrictions on permit holders.

Good job, Bogie.

John
Charlotte, NC

I happen to work at a company with a no-guns sign on the door (TX 30.06 sign). I can assure you that every single one of you posting on this forum are at the very least indirectly using this company's products on a regular, daily basis. To boycott this company would be like boycotting the entire internet. It's completely impractical. That's the whole problem with the black and white attitude. I can think of a dozen other reasons why you might boycott this company, and virtually every other company, over political or rights issues, but if you do that with all of them then you had better be living in the boonies generating your own power and growing your own food. You're certainly not going to be using the internet, or the mail, or a telephone... I could go on and on.

You do that which you can DO!

mr.72 - I think the idea is that you fight the battles you can fight and you win those you can win. I believe one of our Founding Fathers said something like - we shall all hang together or surely we will all hang separately.

No one is suggesting you do something extreme - not suggesting you stand out in the rain with a sign - quit your job or move to a cave.

The suggestion, as I understand it, is to communicate in a nice way your thoughts and to put your money where your mouth is.

My father did not leave us and go to north Africa with Patton so that we could watch TV and drink beer. He did it to protect our freedoms.

John
Charlotte, NC

Nobody's suggesting you go without power if your utility provider is anti.

But if it's a choice between a posted Hooters and non-posted Buffalo Wild Wings, it won't kill you to patronize the people that want your money and advise the others what you're doing and why.

'Course neither BWW nor Hooters have signs here - might not have always been that way, though.

mr.72: You wouldn't be suggesting that a certain couple of abrasive loudmouths just might be giving money to the BradyBunch thamselves, would you?

I am not suggesting anything, bdickens.

I happen to agree about selecting whom you do business with, when you have that option, based on whatever reasons you choose including whether they will allow you in there carrying.

However, for example, I understand Taco Cabana (hey I'm in TX... love that place) posts no guns and there really is no equivalent competition for that place. So you know, I have to balance my love for their verde salsa against my distaste for their policy on carrying guns. So this is basically the same argument about whether to use power from the anti power company or phone service from the anti phone company, or even mail from the USPS... you can either do without that product that you desire from the provider and make a stand, or you submit. Now you may have varying degrees of tolerance for doing without the product, but in the end, this is a case by case choice.

Now I do not yet have my CHL in TX so this is an academic issue to me right now. However I think it's not just so simple that you can say that in all cases, you are going to do either A B C D or E above. It varies, depending on convenience, your perceived risk, and tolerance for doing without whatever unique thing you get at the place of business.

However, for example, I understand Taco Cabana (hey I'm in TX... love that place) posts no guns ...

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I was going to say "What?! No Betos?, no Mariano's?, no Abuelo's?"

But I looked first and, sure enough, the closest is Abuelo's in College Station. I sure don't remember Houston being that Tex/Mex challenged when I was living there.

I'll have to see if any Taco Cabanas here are posted. From what I gather several in Houston were posted out of confusion. Still posted but a really confused owner.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2268801#post2268801

Sometimes, simply pointing the individual to item nine of the TABC FAQ is sufficient:
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/help/General.htm

The less offensive signs are available at TABC district offices.

I believe some of the postings here were simply out of ignorance. They knew the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission required a weapons sign but weren't real clear on what the requirement was.

Not to point out the obvious, but...

mr72 - I hate to point it out but few of us have an option as to the power company (but we can lobby them to change policies); some of us must go into the post office (and for that matter courthouses) as part of our jobs.

We do not, however, have to eat tacos.

I am not suggesting that you should not have the right to make your own decisions nor am I criticizing whatever decision you or others make. I simply ask that others show the same courtesy and refrain from belittling those who choose to be "activists".

Fortunately I spend most of my time in South Carolina were I have seen very few of those signs. When I do, however, I take the time to tell the business why I won't spend my money with them.

John
Charlotte, NC

Houston has a taqeria on every corner it seems. Plenty of places to get tex-mex.


As far as the whole issue of non-compliant signs goes, I don't have the energy to be some kind of one-man Second Amendment Thought Police. Frankly, I could care less what Joe Schmo the store owner thinks about me and my legaly carried defensive sidearm. Even if he is giving money to the BradyBunch, the little pittance they get out of the measly fifty bucks I spent at that store is like spit in the ocean compared to even just my membership dues for the NRA and the TSRA, let alone anything else I might give them.

I'm far more interested in what the law is and in broadening the law and protections for law-abiding CHLs. And if I can carry legaly in Joe Schmo's place despite his feelings on the matter, then I win!

I am not suggesting that you should not have the right to make your own decisions nor am I criticizing whatever decision you or others make. I simply ask that others show the same courtesy and refrain from belittling those who choose to be "activists".

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I find that to be a highly ironic statement, considering that the "activist" that started this thread said of the non-activists:

We got two clueless that are definitely from Florida. Who is ahead? The sunshine state, or the land of steers and...

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He also referred to non-activists as fools, clueless chest thumpers, semi-evolved primates, and also said:

Sick. Why are you even present on this forum?

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as if anyone who doesn't agree with him is not worthy of being in his presence.

I carry anyplace that it isn't a violation of law. If I am asked to remove the firearm I leave. However as a business owner myself I also feel it is the owners right to request you don't carry in their business and I respect that. I make it easy and just don't do business where I can't carry including gun stores.

Where I work has a no guns sign. I ignore it as I choose. Most others do as well. The work I actually do does not allow me to carry while actively working, as I would probably damage or lose my firearm. (Woot. 100th post. Senior member now. Does that mean the junior members will get me a coke if I ask?)

Here in Tennessee a no gun sign effectively allows an owner / operator to write the law in the sense that it (the sigh) carries the weight of the law and can get you a fine of up to $500 and is looked upon as a criminal act and loss of CCW license if caught.

There is no chance of this being changed as long as "King" Jimmy Naifeh is the Speaker of the House nor is there a chance of us getting restaurant that serves carry while he is in.

I would love this state to be like the others that put no weight on the sign because it was the state that recognizes the legal right to carry that can not be upstaged by a public business or the like.

A trespassing or disturbing the peace charge is an effective means of dealing with a person that doesn't comply ---- if they do not conceal and get caught.

power of the sign....

for sale (your the seller-the phone rings -you hope)

...no smoking..do people stop smoking...well, not really... they just smoke somewhere else..though that place is getting harder to find...

no parking...this one seems to require an interpreter and a referee in many applications...

some of us decide which signs apply to us and which dont...depending on who displays the sign and where its displayed...and this attitude may change on circumstances..go figure

remember...car alarms are for the owners of the car...not the thieves

son: dad..what are locks for
dad: they are for honest people
son: then what are very big locks for
dad: they are for VERY honest people

not all signs are written in "black & white"

no guns...a dream...an order...or..a dilemma

wolf

bogie

I agree with you in principle but it depends upon the area in which you live. In Texas CHL holders comprise just over 1% of the population. Not exactly a trump card in the world of finance. It’s worth a try but I doubt the results will be startling.

Plus in the area in which I live I’ve yet to see a 30.06 sign and just a few of the non-compliant types. I suppose that, too, would depend upon the area in which you live.

For those locations where CHL presence is substantial it might well have some impact.

It may not be the buisness's fault. All business's must have insurance. Insurance companies try to make sure they don't have to pay claims by wording their policies in a way that they can get out of payment by showing the policy holder was not in compliance (think Hurricane Katrina, water damage not covered because of flood zone clauses...). I would be interested to see how many of these business's are putting up signs just because there insurance policy says that must put up a sign banning guns.

I agree with you in principle but it depends upon the area in which you live. In Texas CHL holders comprise just over 1% of the population. Not exactly a trump card in the world of finance. It’s worth a try but I doubt the results will be startling.

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Best as I can tell from comparing census numbers to TXDPS numbers, CHL holders are indeed right around 1%.

But the figure for the general population includes minor children.

Just a wild guess but it'd be my conjecture that the 1% of CHL holders is a disproportionate amount of the demographic that eats out a lot and tips heavily. Also, they influence the purchasing choices of more than just themselves. Generally there will be a wife or husband and occasionally a entire safari comprised of workplace cohorts. If several car loads show up at a posted place with one CHL holder in the group the chances are better than even the entire crowd will undergo a rapid redeployment to the joint next door.

And, as long as I'm engaging in unsupported conjecture, I'd also guess that the 1% represents a disproportionate amount of the demographic that buys boots priced in the 4 figure range and luxury cars. That would explain one of the funniest signs I've seen recently: The "Please remove guns and whiskey when leaving car for service" sign at a local Cadillac dealer. It may or may not have anything to do with why Lucchese dealers seem to avoid the signs like the plague.

Of all the 1%s a business could lose, I'd guess ours is one that hurts more than average in the pocketbook. The antis on another board I frequent enjoy pointing out that the CHL demographic leans toward older individuals with disposable income. If we're going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with the observation we might as well make some use of it.

It may not be the buisness's fault. All business's must have insurance. ...

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My guess is this is not a factor.

If a dozen different similar restaurants don't post the sign and one does, it's a pretty safe bet it isn't because their manager is worse at selecting insurance than all his neighbors.

If it was insurance, one would expect to see all similar enterprises posted or not posted and that doesn't appear to be the case. Taco Cabana has an almost compliant "no guns" sign. Thier neighbors, which include at least a half dozen Tex/Mex joints with a liquor license, don't.

I never see them here in New MExico. But, I would not spend my money there if it was a legal sign. I have heard that simply posting a sign doesn't mena you are breaking a law if you do CCW in there. So it wouldn't bother me if they had a sign.

Watch out! a lot of people get into BIG trouble because of something they heard. I t would behoove you to find out what the law really is.