How we lose our ranges (with pictures)

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If you're REALLY worried about the environment, we'd all have to go to using green ammo. The lead we leave is most probably a bigger problem than the trash. The trash is just more visible. Yes, it's a little California'ish, but I happen to agree somewhat for open ranges where the lead can get concentrated in one area.
 
Sad but those open bring all shoot anything ranges suck. Especially on weekends. They are unsupervised and lack total responsibility. Same time they are pretty dangerous. I would not go to them. There are a few ranges like that here. Saturday and sundays are down right dangerous. Same time you get people shooting at your targets and just not caring. So i avoid them like the plague. i go to supervised outdoor ranges they are so much better. here are pictures of where i go you can see the difference.

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Most of California's open shooting areas were closed for this very reason.
Trash.
Cave Creek was a scary place to shoot, sometimes, before it was contracted out as a supervised range.
If I was to find an area like this, I'm keeping it to myself.
 
The problem is just not gun range but parks in general. I was appalled by the trash left after a local kid baseball tournament. Yes the city cleaned it up for I don't see how folks can't expend the energy to put their refuse in the cans. I was thought and am teaching my boys being trashy is a sure sign of earning the label of trash. Have a little dignity.
 
Most of California's open shooting areas were closed for this very reason.
Trash.
Cave Creek was a scary place to shoot, sometimes, before it was contracted out as a supervised range.
If I was to find an area like this, I'm keeping it to myself.
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your right about that. problem is there are still a few like that here. i prefer angeles ranges. very well supervised range.
 
i only shoot at clubs I belong to and we don't have that problem

Yep, the clubs I've shot at are also maintained. I guess members pay for the facilities and have some pride at stake. Free facilities and anonymity offer the opportunity for abuse that some take full advantage of.

As mentioned above, the problem is not limited to ranges. Campgrounds, fishing ponds, subways, subsidized housing, parks... all get there share of abuse by fellow "citizens". Anyone heard citizenship mentioned lately? Do they still teach it in school, or did the ACLU outlaw it?
 
I may be playing the devil's advocate here but the difference i make really won't make a dent in the mountains of trash piling at my ranges. Plus i don't have the time nor means to clean up other people's mess'. Thats just me though.

Earth is a rotting ball of garbage, in most places that is. We are going to have to live with it.
It sucks and isn't right that you have to clean up some idiots mess but if you like to use public land, you probably will need to participate in some clean up efforts sooner or later. It isn't a fun way for you to spend and hour or two but it will keep your range or off-roading land open, "but the earth is a rotting ball of garbage and I can't make a difference" might make you feel better about not doing anything, but ultimately it won't stop that land from eventually being closed.

Good work coloradokevin, I'm envious of people that have public land to shoot on. Perhaps others could get together some shooters in their area and spend an hour at a range cleaning up and pack a trash bag out with them.
 
Simple answer. Make an "Official Looking" sign that kindly asks to pack out trash...Or, ask your State DEC if they could donate a sign.

Adding "Under Penalty of Law" might help somewhat.
 
Make an "Official Looking" sign that kindly asks to pack out trash...Or, ask your State DEC if they could donate a sign.


Last one I saw requesting that the range be kept clean had bullet holes all through it.
 
You're dealing with an issue of careless people. If they drag a water heater out there to shoot up and don't take it, why wouldn't they shoot up the sign asking them to clean up?

It takes some kind of enforcement to stop it entirely. Unfortunately, that enforcement usually leads to closure.
 
Ahhhhhhh.....the Tragedy of the Commons. Some private ranges are not much better. In fact, I have often shot at a private range in Illinois where I spend the first 45 minutes of the morning clearing space and/or picking up litter to give myself a somewhat comfortable shooting environment.

Given that these are public lands, the best compromise solution has already been mentioned by Silverlance. Lease these lands (for the purpose of operating a public shooting range) to a shooting club.

The loss of shooting ranges is THE battle that we should be looking at. Hum-drum suburban sprawl and wealthy urban expats looking for peace and quiet in the country are continuing to encroach on ranges.

Some observations/discussion points:

1) I wonder how many of the litterpigs are card carrying members of the political party of "personal responsibility"? :D :eek:

2) How can we synergize growing green sentiment with the shooting sports?
 
Why just B & Moan... CLEAN IT UP & get it re-opened!

As these public shooting sites get closed, why don't you contact the owner/controller and offer to clean it up if they'll re-open it ??

That seems like a lot easier solution that to complain about it and have to drive an extra x-amount of miles to a different site.
 
I go to a private campground shooting range about an hour from my house. PITA to get there but worth it. Bring anything, shoot anything. Hardly anybody there during the week.

The owner doesn't care. He bulldozes the junk every couple years, makes a fresh berm. If he was so inclined he could extract thousands of $$ worth of lead from that dirt.

One time the owner was gracious enough to put a nice wood picnic table out for us to shoot on. Two weeks later it was shot up so bad he had to trash it. $200 worth.

I just don't get people. Many irresponsible gun owners out there.

Hey Scrat, where is that? Looks like a shooting gallery! That's awesome.
 
Ahhhhhhh.....the Tragedy of the Commons.

That phrase popped into my head as I was reading this thread and I was just thinking about bringing it up when I came across lysander's post. I would encourage anyone who hasn't heard of it to read it here, or at least check out the Wikipedia entry here.
 
You are doing a good job. When I was a young boy, I was intructed to always pack out what you took with you including some of what someone else may have left behind.
In Texas we have very little public land on which to shoot. I usually shoot at a supervise range.
We have shoots at our hunting lease at which time we shoot a lot of different stuff. Before leaving we ALWAYS police the area and haul ALL of our trash away.
A lot of landowners in Texas don't want shooters and hunters on their land because of what you see in those pictures.:mad:
Sadly to say, it is NOT Sarah Brady's group doing all this, it is our own people who are to lazy and worthless to pick up after themselves!!:cuss:
Thanks for starting this thread. It helps keep us all aware.:D
 
When everyone is responsible...no one is responsible. It is an unfortunate maxim of human nature. Makes it very easy to blame someone else, or leave someone else to do the work.

Call it what you will...

The 80/20 rule.
The Tragedy of the Commons.
The Kitty Genovese or Bystander Principle.
Diffused Responsibility.

...the list goes on.

Sadly, most of us (myself included) cannot afford to purchase their own ranges. To some the world is a landfill, to others the earth is gift.
 
minnmooney said:
Why just B & Moan... CLEAN IT UP & get it re-opened!

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As these public shooting sites get closed, why don't you contact the owner/controller and offer to clean it up if they'll re-open it ??

That seems like a lot easier solution that to complain about it and have to drive an extra x-amount of miles to a different site.

First, I posted this not as a bitch session, but rather to raise awareness of the problem.

Second, no one person could keep these ranges clean. Do you propose I keep a dumpster at my house permanently, and buy a trailer to tow trash in? I have no means of disposing of: Hot water heaters, refrigerators, stoves, toilets, tires, etc.

I do what I can, but I can't entirely handle it myself... Nor could anyone else.

Also, the USFS isn't generally very recepetive to these ideas once an area has been closed. Local shooting groups used to organize clean-up days from time-to-time at Left Hand Canyon, but you would no sooner get the trash out than it would re-appear by some other idiot.

storydude said:
Simple answer. Make an "Official Looking" sign that kindly asks to pack out trash...Or, ask your State DEC if they could donate a sign.

Adding "Under Penalty of Law" might help somewhat.

As I mentioned in one of my other posts, this is a common FS theme in these areas...

They add the official signage, and it gets shot within a couple of weeks. The area that I posted about has a very official looking non-official sign. It hasn't been shot up yet (probably because of the specific lack of a "under penalty of law" clause), but it is obviously ignored.

rustynuts said:
If you're REALLY worried about the environment, we'd all have to go to using green ammo. The lead we leave is most probably a bigger problem than the trash. The trash is just more visible. Yes, it's a little California'ish, but I happen to agree somewhat for open ranges where the lead can get concentrated in one area.

Well environmental concerns aside (god knows we have enough old mining tailings ponds in this state, with heavy metal concentrations that could kill death itself), we still have the issue of range closure.

Some folks here are essentially saying: "It's public land, that's just the way it is". The problem with that train of thought is that many of us like to shoot on public lands, and this sort of stuff will ultimately get it outlawed (just as it has in the past).


I also agree that private ranges are generally cleaner and safer. Sadly, the ranges near me are either expensive private deals (like $13/day/person + park entrance fee; or $16+/day/person, etc --- adds up quick for me and the wife), or they are a part of gun clubs with lengthy waiting lists (I inquired with two clubs that said it would be at least 2010 before I could get in).

So, the forest is what I have, and it's what I am fighting to save!
 
lysander said:
Sadly, most of us (myself included) cannot afford to purchase their own ranges. To some the world is a landfill, to others the earth is gift.

very well said.
 
I think that we might could learn something from the "tread lightly" offroad community. Organize a few fellow shooters from the local vicinity. I could probably come up with a dozen without using the internet.
Anyhow; Then plan a quarterly bi-monthly or whatever trail-range cleanup day. Cook some hotdogs clean up trash and then have some sort of shoot. You'd be surprised at what a dozen strong backs and weak minds can clean up in only a couple hours.

Some folks here are essentially saying: "It's public land, that's just the way it is". The problem with that train of thought is that many of us like to shoot on public lands, and this sort of stuff will ultimately get it outlawed (just as it has in the past).

Like all things nowdays range mantinence and clean up falls underneath the category of "if you want it done at all you'll have to do it yourself. Griping about other's laziness will get you NOWHERE fast no matter what the subject. I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, the fact is people do not change EVER! if someone is a lazy turd and won't pick up their trash to begin with then posting about it on the interweb isn't going to get them to change their ways. Your only real tool to fight with is you community of fellow shooters, ORGANIZE, fight back or else take up kite flying as a hobby.
 
Some folks here are essentially saying: "It's public land, that's just the way it is". The problem with that train of thought is that many of us like to shoot on public lands, and this sort of stuff will ultimately get it outlawed (just as it has in the past).

Some people also do not have time to clean up after other people. Maybe if we all had all the time in world we would help clean up more.
 
Some people also do not have time to clean up after other people. Maybe if we all had all the time in world we would help clean up more.

You'll either have to make time or take up another hobby. PERIOD plain and simple. Waiting for someone else to clean up your range is only going to accomplish getting your shooting facility shut down. If you have time to shoot then you have time to help clean up. Not doing something to help fix the problem is only one notch better than the yahoos creating it
 
esmith said:
Some people also do not have time to clean up after other people. Maybe if we all had all the time in world we would help clean up more.

Hey, it isn't like I am made of time or money.

I'm not retired, and I work a lot of hours. But, everyone can throw in an extra twenty minutes at the end of their range session to pick up some trash! Heck, it took an hour to drive there, two hours to shoot, an hour drive home... You're telling me you can't spare an extra twenty minutes?

If it is the difference between keeping the place open, or losing it forever, I'd rather shoot for an hour and forty minutes, and clean for the last twenty... and be able to go again next weekend!
 
1) I wonder how many of the litterpigs are card carrying members of the political party of "personal responsibility"?
I'd go out on a limb and say that people that haul water heaters and toilets to the range to shoot probably don't vote often. Could be wrong. :D
 
Hey, it isn't like I am made of time or money.

I'm not retired, and I work a lot of hours. But, everyone can throw in an extra twenty minutes at the end of their range session to pick up some trash! Heck, it took an hour to drive there, two hours to shoot, an hour drive home... You're telling me you can't spare an extra twenty minutes?

If it is the difference between keeping the place open, or losing it forever, I'd rather shoot for an hour and forty minutes, and clean for the last twenty... and be able to go again next weekend!

Yes i suppose you are right. None of the ranges where i go to are dirty enough to be closed though.

You'll either have to make time or take up another hobby. PERIOD plain and simple. Waiting for someone else to clean up your range is only going to accomplish getting your shooting facility shut down. If you have time to shoot then you have time to help clean up. Not doing something to help fix the problem is only one notch better than the yahoos creating it

Uh no. Not period plain and simple. One of the two state ranges i go to prohibit the shooting of junk. Its not that messy, with the exception of casings and shotgun wads everywhere. I can still go there for free.
 
Anyone heard citizenship mentioned lately? Do they still teach it in school, or did the ACLU outlaw it?

no. "devil take the last man in" is now taught in our schools. honor, respect, and integrity is not.

ironically, you can thank (in part) the bush NCLB for that.
 
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