Let's see your tough guns....

Let's try this again - second attempt after losing my entire response using spell check!

Giz, that little Smith looks like a tough gun to me! Sentimental value is darned near impossible to put a $ figure on, no? I think Boxheads awesome .500 is a tough gun too, as well as several other guns (mostly the older ones). When I said your Fitz special had no value - I meant to me, thus the 'I wouldn't own it' statement. I am not personally a fan of the open trigger guard on ANY gun. I am sorry to anyone who dislikes the fact that I am not jumping on the bandwagon here, but can't I too have my own opinion?

That friction tape (like tennis racket tape?) screams Saturday Night Special like only a $50 Rossi can duplicate, especially with the 'and it leaves no fingerprints' notation. To each his own... if you love it, I am 110% behind you, but it is simply not for me and I'm sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon. I simply won't be disingenuous like ..."But then I own other guns cobbled up and chopped up by the likes of Jim Clark Sr, and a few other notable gun cobblers...

That statement must be made in jest or is unbelievably disingenuous. I would be willing to bet you a gun that you will not find the proofmarks of Jim Clark, Bowen, Linebaugh, Harton, Gallagher, Cunningham, Reeder, etc, etc, etc on that gun. I do not consider them cobblers, but craftsmen of the highest order. True artisons in the strictist sense of the word.

That Fitz special could be made by anyone with a hacksaw and a roll of tape. By 'outlived it's usefulness' I meant to me personally... thus the 'I wouldn't own it' statement because it has been altered into a form I would not have. I am not a fan. That certainly doesn't mean that it isn't valuable to you. Enjoy gizamo!

Thus... theotherwaldo... it doesn't have to be a choice of either/or. What I like or what Giz likes really doesn't matter. you, like I, can like a whole bunch or none of them. The question wasn't which one would you rather carry, but let's see your tough guns. What do you have that you consider a tough gun?

Not nearly as tough looking as some of these others, but here's mine-


(Yea - when I first looked at the photo I took, I finally noticed the loose screw at the front of the top strap/sight. )

Before we all kiss and make up, the Old Fuff would like to point out that what is a treasure to some can be junk to another. However it isn’t polite to post insults or try to degrade another member’s toys unless there is some good reason to do so, and anyone who does this should remember that throwing rocks isn’t a good policy if you live in a glass house. In this context I have a problem.

Markbo’s submission to the thread was a Colt single Action Army revolver, allegedly made in 1876 and chambered in .32-20. The gun was presented with a long and elaborate family history.

But the historical fact is that the .32-20 cartridge didn’t exist in 1876, let alone a Colt revolver chambered to use it. Winchester introduced the cartridge in 1882, for use in their line of model 1873 rifles and carbines. Colt didn’t get around to offering .32-20 Single Action’s until 1884.

Of course it is quite possible, and even probable, that the revolver was chambered in something else when it was made, and later fitted with a different barrel and cylinder to make it into a .32-20. But then, so far as serious collectors are concerned it’s nothing more then a “parts gun,” with substantially lesser monetary and historical value.

None of this I suspect, will affect the gun’s worth to Markbo or his family, and aside from the cartridge issue I have no reason to doubt his story as related. If my revelation has caused him some disappointment, I apologize – but that doesn’t change the facts. Any gun should be appreciated for what it is, and what it represents. Money doesn’t necessarily play a part in either, and I have yet to meet a gun that didn’t have some value to someone.

Quote: Markbo said to Big Boomer & gb6491:

Originally Posted by Big Boomer
Not sure what you mean by tough guns? But how is this shot?

Too large to see on the screen to be impressive? Cut that resolution in half and it would still (over)fill the screen image.

gb6491: Great shot. But your finger is on the trigger and you CAN'T say "But it's not loaded". My Mom had a small revolver pulled on her during a bank robbery back in the 60's... she often described the gun as being 'short but with a hole in the end THIIIIIIS BIG... reminded me of your pic.

p.s. time for that barrel to be cleaned
__________________

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Wow,

The "forum police" --- I guess every forum has to have someone who has been self appointed to criticise everyone else !!!!


Giz, great thread. I love seeing the "Fitz" everytime you post pics of it --- it is an imposing (tough looking) gun. It makes all of my revolvers look like "sissy's" compared to it.

Don

Tough Enough?

markallen

yep that will more than due.

Two pics of the semi-fitz treatment of the trigger guard are below. Bill Jordan made such adjustments to his guns and preferred this treatment over the full Fitz.





tipoc

markbo,
you said on June 6th

While gizamo is obviously proud of his little Frankenstein, I don't consider it a 'tough' gun. I consider it a cobbled up, chopped up, overused tool that has outlived it's usefulness. Were it mine I would probably cut it up

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I am sorry to anyone who dislikes the fact that I am not jumping on the bandwagon here, but can't I too have my own opinion?

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if your opinion is that a WW1 veteran who apparently survived the depression by living on one side of the law or the other should be destroyed on the anniversary of D day of all things, well gettin slapped around on the internet is more than appropriate

Old Fluff... I will have to find that Colt Letter. It is very likely I got the date wrong since I am certain the cartridge is right. Since it sounds like you are a collector of sorts, I'd be happy to give you the serial number.

However it isn’t polite to post insults or try to degrade another member’s toys unless there is some good reason to do so,

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woodsltc... I guess when members can't be considerate themselves, someone should not hesitate to step up and remind them, just as Old Fluff did with me. It was not critisizing. It was asking to be considerate of those who may still have slow connections and an inability to see GIGANTIC pictures. And despite the fact that the OP has already said no harm no foul, what Old Fluff stated is spot on. I was impolite and for that I apologize.

Markbo said:

I was impolite and for that I apologize.

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Hey Great!! Good manners, being polite and not criticising others pics and guns is a good way for us all to "play well" with others and have fun.

Don

For those with their knickers in a twist over a camera looking into the barrel of a gun - check this out for a candidate for gene pool removal.

Some people's kids........

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=15c_1180072741

Got out my Colt book and just checked... For serial number 127xxx the correct year of manufacture was 1888. Don't know why that other number popped off a synaps connection, but my apologies for the inaccuracy.

I simply won't be disingenuous like ..."But then I own other guns cobbled up and chopped up by the likes of Jim Clark Sr, and a few other notable gun cobblers...

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Actually, Jim Clark Sr. chopped up and cobbled together pistols quite frequently. I used his name as an example for a reason.

The first long slide 1911 was the work of Jim Clark Sr. On a trip to Arkansas, he discovered and bought an entire barrel of demilled M1911A1 slides for 10 cents each. Once home, he had an oil drum full of M1911A1 slide chunks. To some, it was junk. Always one to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, Jim began to experiment. He chopped up slides, cobbled together the pieces, and built the first long slide 1911, a pistol Clark Custom still builds. Here is one of his fabricated long slide pistols. Here is one with his slide guide installed. You see, Jim Clark Sr. was a thinker, fabricator, and designer who just happened to work with guns, as are all great gunsmiths. Some people call themselves gunsmiths when they install a few aftermarket parts and polish up the result to match. Others create something new from where there was only pieces of a puzzle before.

Now we can argue the meaning of cobble if you like. I suspect we will agree on the meaning of chop. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition defines cobble as to make or mend.

I myself, would have used another word, such as crafted, or perhaps 'smithed, but it was you who chose to use "cobble" to denegrate another person's firearm. I submit to you that the Fitz Special in question is no more cobbled than a long slide 1911 that is fabricated from a surplus M1911A1 and a remmnant of a demilled slide with a six inch Bar-Sto barrel fitted to it. It is no more cobbled than a dust cover of a 1911 with a steel reinforcement drilled and tapped for Allen screws and a slide bottom beveled to ride on those screws to an incredibly tight repeatable lock while maintaining a looseness that promotes reliability.

You go on to claim:

That Fitz special could be made by anyone with a hacksaw and a roll of tape.

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I submit to you that you have not shot the gun, You have no idea how it is fitted, what type of action work it contains, or anything else about the revolver except it's exterior appearance that you find to be distasteful. You do not know whether the firearm in question could be duplicated in fact with a hacksaw and a roll of tape, because you do not know the firearm. I suppose the tape would be used to reattach the front sight after the barrel has been cut down? Maybe the rounded end of the hacksaw blade could be used to recrown the barrel (looks like a darned good job to me) and smooth out the rear face of the bobbed hammer. Perhaps the purchase of an old worn out M1917, a roll of tape and a hacksaw and a bit of sweat equity would help you appreciate the craftsmanship that obviously went into the Fitz Special pictured.

Now that was jest. I believe you will need more than a roll of tape and a hacksaw to duplicate the work done on that particular Fitz Special. Perhaps the work performed on the revolver in question was just too subtle for your eye. Perhaps you have just never modified a firearm beyond swapping grips. I don't know.... But you seem to fail to appreciate difficult, precise work done on a firearm, and probably work that was done by hand.

I don't fault you for your failure to appreciate these things. However, when we fail to appreciate that which others see, often it is best to ask why rather than speak our mind. Then we can learn to appreciate new things. If we don't want to learn to appreciate new things, we can at least chose not to denegrate the possessions of others that they are proud of. Around here, at The High Road, we call this manners.

Well, I had that all typed up, previewed it, and saw that an apology was rendered. Well done. I'm going to go ahead and make the post, if not for any other reason than to show what some of us see in these old modified, unoriginal, an "cobbled together" guns. Let's carry on and learn to appreciate that which we fail to see. If we do not, we will eventually suffer the fate of Jim Zumbo.

Here is one of my own "tough guns." Of course, it's an obsolete underpowered chopped up old thing.

Two pics of the semi-fitz treatment of the trigger guard are below. Bill Jordan made such adjustments to his guns and preferred this treatment over the full Fitz.

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J.H. FitzGerald, ("Fitz") to his many friends, was a key employee at Colt, and the best company promoter since the Col. himself.

His revolver design was built around a concept of side-pocket carry, either pants or topcoat. It was for this reason that he cut away the front of the trigger guard, because of the tight confines of a pocket. However some rather interesting people, Charles Askins being the most notable, liked the amputated trigger guard on any handgun, including a few pistols.

As I knew both Askins and Bill Jordan I ask both about their preferences.

Askins and FitzGerald were both close friends, and Charley sent the Colt Company a fair amount of business. But more to the point, Askins discovered he could quickly unload a revolver (or pistol) by, “fanning the trigger,” as he put it. He would hold the gun in the left hand (he was a southpaw) and use the edge of his right to literally fan the trigger through the open front of the trigger guard. It should be noted that he used a holster of his own design that covered the trigger guard, or where the guard would usually be. This holster was adopted by the Border Patrol for general issue, but they never made any alterations to their guns.

Jordan on the other hand used a holster that he designed, where the trigger guard was completely exposed. He also saw no reason for trigger fanning, which he considered to be a questionable trick. Because of his personal technique combined with the trigger guard being completely exposed he did slim the right side of the guard because of his large hands and fingers, but for obvious reasons he didn’t cut is fully away.

When I was a callow youth, and not the brightest light bulb in the room, I ask Askins – who was in a mellow mood – if cutting away the trigger guard wasn’t a bit dangerous. He looked me up and down, and then told me in somewhat stronger language that wouldn’t get past Art’s Grandma, that there were a lot more dangerous things one would encounter in a gunfight then a cut-away trigger guard. His words and experience made an impression I haven’t forgotten.

X. Breath:

If you don't stop posting pictures of that #@$$ sawed-off Police Positive I may be forced to do something myself...

Not that it would be the first time...

If you don't stop posting pictures of that #@$$ sawed-off Police Positive I may be forced to do something myself

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you ought to thumb your nose at yourself for me. remanissing about conversations with legends thats somthing I sure envy.

Manners of the highest kind Xavier... piping up to run a man down after he has apologized and said apology has been accepted by someone else.

You have no idea what I noticed and what I didn't. You have no idea what I have done, who I know, how long I have lived or what I know, do or appreciate. You have not a single clue what I failed to appreciate and what I simply do not care for. Have you never read any conflict (read difference of opinions) here or anywhere about Glocks? AR's? AK's? The list is endless really, isn't it?

You don't know if I noticed the rounded crown, the reshaped cylinder latch, the weld under the front sight, the different colors of bluing that have developed as it has aged or the holster wear marks or the loose half moon clips mixed with the ammo. yet you chastise me for not having handled the gun so how could I know X, Y & Z. I challenge you how could anyone form an opinion OTHER than by sight since this is not face to face? It's the INTERNET Xavier.

But then it is obvious that you did not write that longwinded reprimand as a kind, teaching and helping note to someone relatively new to THR. But I am not new to the planet. I hear you. I know. You think you know more than someone else just because they don't like what you do. How inane to make that assumption.

You wrote that entirely to reprimand me after I did something you didn't like. You use apparent attempts at humor to lighten the blow, but in the end you did it for you. Nice. How very passive/aggresive of you. I tell you what. Why don't you take your own advice. If you can't say anything nice, just shut up. I believe you will find the correct description in that same book of reference you mentioned. Look up "Hypocritical" and tell me if it doesn't hit home just a a bit.

How many times must someone say they are sorry before everyone gets off his back? A true gentleman would say the only right answer. Once.

Thank you Old Fluff for that story. Very enlightening and very enjoyable as well. Cherish those memories!

You wrote that entirely to reprimand me after I did something you didn't like. You use apparent attempts at humor to lighten the blow, but in the end you did it for you. Nice. How very passive/aggresive of you. I tell you what. Why don't you take your own advice. If you can't say anything nice, just shut up. I believe you will find the correct description in that same book of reference you mentioned. Look up "Hypocritical" and tell me if it doesn't hit home just a a bit.

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Ok. Let me be blunt. You came here and denegrated another man's gun because you did not like the way it looked. It is not a matter of whether you disagree, but whether you chose to be disagreeable. You have participated in hijacking a thread which other members would like to remain open so they can enjoy it. Often, rather than closing a thread that veers off into gun handling issues and snide personal attacks, we try to keep threads open by guiding them back in the direction the original poster intended. Now you have launched into a personal attack against me because I tried to correct you lightly, again hijacking the thread and chosing to be disagreeable.

All are contrary to how The High Road is run. If you do not like it, move on to another forum. Continue in this manner, and I will assist you in doing so.

Perhaps you can appreciate that.

you ought to thumb your nose at yourself for me. remanissing about conversations with legends thats somthing I sure envy.

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I was lucky... sort of. Many years ago my knowledge, such as it was, landed me a job in the industry where I got to meet a lot of the legends in both a formal and informal basis. The latter was best because they were among they're own kind and tended to let their hair down.

Then there were others that weren't legends, but should have been. Most of those I came across living in the Southwest. Looking backwards it turned out to be a fun ride. I do enjoy those memories.

I will say this: They were the most non-politically correct bunch of folks I ever did see...

Brass Rain:

How about Rugers, Tauri (plural of Taurus, right?), or Colts?

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Probably your best bet would be a Taurus, because the spring and plunger for the cylinder stop is in the center of the yoke stud, and well out of the way of the material you need to remove. You can also pick a model that has an internal hammer, shrouded hammer, or a bobbed hammer.

I haven't tried a Ruger, but I suspect that the detachable trigger guard might present issues.

Well no, I don't think I could do that to a Colt. Wouldn't be right.

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It would depend on the particular Colt. These days I wouldn't cut up anything that was in good shape, but a junker (or close to it) might be a reasonable candidate. The original Fitz revolvers were custom built at Colt, and they didn't have any issues in doing it, although they were a special order item, and the orders usually came through Fitz himself.

Also, unquestionably - more of them were made outside the factory then in it. One individual who apparently had an "outside job" was Clyde Barrow of Bonnie & Clyde fame.

All of the factory guns weren't bulit on the New Service platform either. They used everything from the little .32 Pocket Positive up to the massive (for a pocket revolver) New Service.

Love the rough tough evil Fitz.

I am hoping more of the same
emerge as well as Jovinos and
other fine chop jobs.
I am considering semi-Fitzing
a .38 special OP that is definitely
not a collectors piece.
I would prefer a .45 acp,but it
seems to hard to find an acceptable,as in rough,donor.
I also have a 1897 pump,just right
with the Fitz.

[/IMG]



A young local gunsmith did this for me about 20 years ago. I wanted a 3" M29 but couldn't find one that was right. This Redhawk came to me as a 5.5" used gun. It was the 'smith's idea to keep the interchangeable front sight which was nice. I suppose I rushed him (stopping by his shop about everyday) or he would have done more with the muzzle area. Someday I may tackle that myself.

I ground the Pachmayrs down a bit but they'll soon be replaced by Hogue Bantams. The current load is Speer 200gr Gold Dot over a full charge of H110. They should expand OK.