approached in a parking lot...

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Bear spray makes a fog & it's what's available in Co Springs (where I've run into faaaaar more bears than bad guys)
 
Every time someone mentions Bear Spray, I think of that episode of South Park with Cartman as "Dog the Bounty Hunter."

I can't help myself.


-- John
 
Bear spray

What makes you think he was justified in spraying the guy but not in drawing his weapon?

Besides he DID use a non-lethal deterrent - verbal commands.

In law enforcement our force contimuum starts with officer presence then escalates to verbal commands with several stages between there and your sidearm HOWEVER there is no rule that says you follow that continuum step by step. Your response depends on the situation. Your continuum is also dependent on what tools you have available - baton, OC spray, taser, etc. In this case the OP acknowledged the other guy's presence by engaging him visually, responded verbally telling him no several times in an increasingly forceful manner, THEN when the threat escalated he drew his weapon (but never pointed it) allowing it to be seen by the other guy who retreated. It sounds to me like he followed his force continuum (that he probably didn't know he had) and handled the situation appropriately. I think he'd have a lot harder time explaining why he sprayed the guy at that point than why he drew his weapon.
 
Where in this situation does the "Castle Doctrine" come into play? If you're leagally allowed to be where you are, why do you have to tuck tail and run? You weren't doing anything wrong, but the "homeless" man can make it YOUR obligation to run. I don't think so.
 
I hate it when someone comes up to me in a parking lot, especially at night. The store parking lot lights can be minimal. Once I just pulled into a parking space (daytime) and a guy pulled up beside my truck (driver's door to driver's door), blocked me, and asked for money. Fortunately it didn't turn into a bad situation, only a learning experience.

I'm sorry, but if you undertake a 1000+ mile trip in your ratty van and don't have enough money for gas or a broken water pump you are stupid! I would never do that.

In the past I've bought gas for people and even put 3 guys up in a motel for the night. But I decided it's too dangerous. Don't come up to me wanting something, especially at night. I decided any situation at night causes me to automatically have a grip on my pistol in the holster and then decide if more escalation is needed.

Paul
 
PA does have "castle doctrine"; what we don't have is a "stand your ground" law; if i'm in public, and have a means of a escape, i have to take it. and i would've, too, if i could've. i was in a pretty tight parking spot that took me over a minute to get into; the guy would have had more than nough time to smash my window, reach in, and do whatever.

was he really going to rob me? who knows. i just hope the next time he tries to pull this crap with someone else, he gets shot for his troubles.
 
The Treo School Of Internet Law

Where the education you receive is worth every bit of the price you paid.

What makes you think he was justified in spraying the guy but not in drawing his weapon?

In Colorado the standard for lethal force is reasonable fear of life or greivous bodily injury. I really think I'd have a hard time justifying that in this situation.

In Colorado if you display a weapon (if you even say you have a weapon) and lethal force isn't justified it's brandishing a weapon. Should you happen to point the weapon it's felony menacing.

The standard for non lethal is a little lower, " I thought he was going to try to start a fight so I bear sprayed him."

I figure if I don't present W/out a CLEAR threat to my life I won't ever wander into that gray area.

Class dissmissed
 
The standard for non lethal is a little lower, " I thought he was going to try to start a fight so I bear sprayed him."

Sounds like assault to me. Hard to defend that kind of preemptive strike.
On the other hand, to say "He approached me and asked me for a cigarette, I told him no several times and to stay away from me but he challenged me and kept coming. Then he reached into his pocket and I was afraid that he might have a weapon so I drew my gun and held it where he could see it and told him to get away from me again, but I didn't point it at him." comes across as reasonable and defensible. Plus no one was hurt, unlike in your scenario where the guy is probably going to be writhing on the ground crying and gagging (at least until EMS shows up and decontaminates him) while your trying to explain your reasoning to the responding LEO.


18-12-106. Prohibited use of weapons.
(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor
if:
(a) He knowingly and unlawfully aims a firearm
at another person

This is from the Colorado statutes, I underlined for emphasis. Like any law any where how it is applied would be dependent on the totality of the situation. I'm willing to bet that given the circumstances we're talking about a LEO (who has quite a bit of discretion in how he applies the law) would lean in favor of the OP. Based on the information we have I know I would.

I figure if I don't present W/out a CLEAR threat to my life I won't ever wander into that gray area.

Wait that long and it may be too late.


Of course this took place in Pennsylvania but the gist is the same.
 
"or what?" he laughed, putting a hand in his pocket. i had drawn my gun from its holster when he asked the second question. now, i held it
against the steering wheel, where he could see it. i told him, in french, to get away from my van, and that i wasn't going to tell him again.
What exactly did you say to him after you displayed the weapon? Can you quote it as best you remember? (minus the full spell of any French words)

What is the law in PA regarding display of a weapon? They have something slightly unusual, IIRC. Does Scranton have any ordinances that apply to display of weapons in public?


was he really going to rob me? who knows. i just hope the next time he tries to pull this crap with someone else, he gets shot for his troubles.
That's an odd hope.

If the guy is just a pushy and socially inept beggar who is not a real physical threat, there is no need for him to get shot by anyone.

But if you're right in thinking that the pushy beggar is deserving of getting shot in the future for doing the same thing he did to you, then it would seem that you had an opportunity to do it yourself. Kind of a contradiction.

I don't think it's very nice to wish for something like that unless you know that the guy was an assaulter.
 
About a year or so ago, my fiance and I had gone to dinner and a movie. On the way back to the car, a guy popped out asking for change. I said "I don't have any change, sorry". He then persisted and said "I know you have money." (this was before I had started to carry anything and caused me to carry later on)

Well I gave the 'look' so my fiance knew to hop in the car and start it. The guy ended up pulling out what looked like a piece of scrap metal with electrical tape for a handle and told me he was going to cut me and lunged at me. I side stepped him then grabbed the arm with the weapon and bulldogged him with my shoulder into this short concrete wall that was behind the cars.

The guy lost his grip on the weapon in all of this and we both (still standing and throwing punches) rolled over to a different part of the wall. I finally got his jacket over his head and laid into him. I shoved him to the ground and then I saw blood all over me and thought he stabbed me. I stood up and he ran. The blood was pouring out of my hand and I am sure some of it was his.

The police took a report and I had to go to the hospital. Now I have to deal with every few months getting myself checked because I am scared to death that I got something from him.

The reason I tell this story is that, the thread starter had a guy approach in the same way. He was very justified in displaying a firearm because the same situation I was in could have happened to him. You are very lucky it was just keys and you didn't have to do something drastic.
 
he took his hand from his pocket, holding a set of keys.

I'd hate to get pummeled by a clenched fist holding a set of keys.
He may have had a knife in is pocket too.
You warned him off, he continued, you responded with a display of superior force. I'd say well done.
 
FCFC has never been in a real situation where he sensed a real threat.


Or he is dishonest.

:cool:
 
I'm with you all the way but... In Washington State you would have been considered a very naughty boy. Brandishing a weapon and threatening someone with it. As far as shooting the guy, even if he touched you, you would have gotten in trouble. Excessive force unless he's brandishing a knife, gun or crowbar.

Bottom line is you do what you think you need to do to protect yourself and your family and deal with the consequences later (if there are any).

I think however you are allowed to pull out a knife. You can always say you were removing a hangnail or something. Funny how one type of deadly weapon is OK but another has such a stigma attached to it.
 
The first one to call the cops wins.

Did you call the police immediately afterwards ? If the guy had called first saying you pulled a gun on him, it would probably be a bad day for you.

There is something to this in some situations, but, this is what a veteran cop told me. He said when they run into cases like this they interview the people maybe even a few times and do their own investigation. Because he said "You know what, I'll let you in on a little secret. Believe it or not some times people will actually LIE to the police.....gasp..." So they have had the bad guys try this before. And, a women out buying party favors for her kid is likely going to have a more believable story than parking lot loitering guy.
 
Porcupines, skunks, cats and dogs all make a display of their weapons before they use them. Why? Because they realize that it is far better to display them and not have to use them than to immediately engage with a weapon at the last possible minute.

Why is the principle considered by some to be inapplicable to human self-defense? Only because of the legal ramifications imposed by lawyers and judges. God bless the animals for their common sense.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Well handled, jahwarrior, despite what FCFC's going to tell you.
Well, FCFC checked in, and as expected, was the contrarian once again.

Asking what was said and what the applicable law is ...is contrarian?
LOL.
 
This approach is basic thug 101 and is used to distract until they are close and it almost always proceeds an attack. I think if you had not "pulled", you would have been raped or robed, or both. As for him being twenty feet away; ask a cop about the twenty foot rule. To keep pushing after being told no and not to approach is not normal, this is a threat. To have tried to leave or start your car would not have worked, as he would have been on you in less than a second, before you could have closed and locked the door. You did what you had too and responded well. Any landing you walk away from is a good one.
 
Do not engage the demon in conversation. When someone approaches you like that, tell him "no" in no uncertain terms. There's no law says you have to be polite to someone who may just be planning to attack you.

If he persists, you are justified in drawing. But as mentioned earlier, immediately call the police and report the incident. A cell phone is as much a self defense accessory as a spare magazine.
 
Do not engage the demon in conversation. When someone approaches you like that, tell him "no" in no uncertain terms. There's no law says you have to be polite to someone who may just be planning to attack you.

If he persists, you are justified in drawing. But as mentioned earlier, immediately call the police and report the incident. A cell phone is as much a self defense accessory as a spare magazine.

I agree. Rudeness is definitely appropriate in communicating with a pesty beggar.

If the guy is really an assailant, about to launch a deadly attack on you, then you have a huge problem and you must act accordingly

But if he is just some drunken homeless wino thinks the world owes him free cigarettes, then drastic measures are not called for. If the demon is not capable of furnishing a real threat of death or severe bodily injury, then you don't want to escalate the situation into gunplay.

The cellphone as weapon idea is a good one. Take a stand and say: Listen mghhgohir, I have a cell phone and unless you get the pharsckl outta here, I will call the cops and stay here to have them arrest you.

They almost always understand that Scare 'em off with some, ahem, French bon mots and get outta there.

You gotta remember: Any time you get to go home without shooting a drunken wino who is physically incapable of hurting you, well, that is a success.

I'm trying to look up the PA statues on displaying a weapon. I'll share what I find. Whatever the law is will have a bearing on how the OP actually did.

Unless, of course, he is a Sovereign.
 
Nope you did not do right, and it should never have come to you drawing a gun and pointing it at the guy - not if you gave us the whole story.

You're wrong.

You don't wait for someone to get their hands on you or within a closing distance before you decide you might need to draw your gun--all the moreso if their behavior and verbeage is implying hostility.

YOU can wait all you want. We'll read about you in the newspaper under "Local man assaulted by Serial Parking Lot mugger."

Bottom line is I have more of a right to be somewhere than a criminal who wants to try and intimidate me or bully me into something I'm not agreeable to. I'll tell you "no" exactly one time. After that, I'm going to start exercising my options that ensure MY IMMEDIATE well-being.

Obviously those who've never been in a bad fight--and I mean one where you're not just real sure if you're even goin to be able to survive it--do not understand how difficult it is to guess and hypothesize what a cop or a judge or a jury may say about your actions all the while you're getting your guts stomped.

Much easier to hypothesize and project onto others from the safety of your computer hutch.

Jeff
 
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