Heller denied again in DC - Duplicate threads merged

The only application received yesterday was from a woman who brought a revolver "...and she is not allowed to use it, even for self-defense, unless her application is approved."

I'd like to see this publicized more. Complying with the law but still can't defend one's self until permitted by the powers that be.

Heller was allowed to take the gun home

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Ok, now it's getting really bizzare.
It's illegal for him to have it until he has a permit, but they gave it to him and told him to keep it until they give him the permit.

Wouldn't be surprised if he gets an O-dark-thirty visit and arrested for illegal (unlicensed) possession. Just because they handed it back to him and told him to hang onto it doesn't mean it's legal for him to do so.

It might be wise to return the gun to its out-of-DC storage location until the license is granted.

Heller was allowed to take the gun home later Friday after police fingerprinted him and ran a ballistics test on the weapon. The registration process is expected to be completed in several weeks after police finish the required background check.

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How would you define "arbitrary" or "capricious"? Do you suppose the FBI did a background check on Heller when he applied for his security job? (I'd guess so.) A couple weeks to complete a registration? (If it takes more than a couple hours, somebody is way over paid!) :banghead:

I wonder just how many different ways these D.C. tyrants can refuse to obey SCOTUS's ruling? Sheesh!

Poper

you know, its still better then NYC which can take a year and close to a thousand bucks for every gun you want to register.

I detect a unique medical condition (recto-cranial inversion)in the case of the Mayor of D.C. These people must know what is coming next with such a narrow definition of what they consider acceptable. Is it masochism, overdeveloped sense of the stubborn, or what?? I want to set u bleachers and sell tickets for the next round, this is going to be great entertainment.

Ok, now it's getting really bizzare.
It's illegal for him to have it until he has a permit, but they gave it to him and told him to keep it until they give him the permit.

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You must break the law to comply with the law!

Don't worry, nobody will abuse that. It just means officers will now all have to use thier discretion to decide if anyone warrants arrest.

Isn't that how it is for all free people? It is at the discretion of thier overseers if they are arrested at any moment, and all can be arrested because all are technicaly breaking various laws that can be discretionarily enforced.
But if you have nothing to hide, then don't worry. They won't use that discretion against you.

I got to meet Mr. Gura last night...

He came and spoke to VCDL's monthly meeting. Got a copy of the oral-arguments transcript autographed...

Anyway, addressing some of the stuff: Heller was going to (probably has by now) return today to register the revolver. He didn't bring the 1911 with him yesterday because of the "we'll confiscate machineguns" thing.

Mr. Gura also said that DC is in for some financial pain. Having lost a civil rights case, yes, they are going to have to cough up some attorney fees Also, someone asked last night if Heller, and the publicity thereof, would affect Mr. Gura's fees. He said that it would. Asked in what way, he responded,

"Upward".

On the subject of a book deal, he said it was in the works. He was not, however, promising any kind of publication schedule.

"I'm kind of busy suing these cities...", he said.

With regard to zoning gun stores like porn shops, he pointed out that the porn-shop zoning thing is based on secondary effects. You don't want guys with bags of candy under their trenchcoats, hanging around schools. By contrast, consider a gun shop: Name ANY other business where (a) the staff have to have clean records; and (b) the CUSTOMERS are subject to background checks. An FFL is by definition the legally-cleanest business one can have. Your neighborhood CHURCH is going to have a scruffier-by-definition clientele.

On the subject of machineguns, his opinion is that with 150,000 MGs among 290,000,000 guns, you ain't gonna get the general population's knickers out of their twist for a long time. That's a future battle.

922(r) may have some potential, though. Consider a gun that's perfectly legal to make inside the US, but not importable. Um, say again? The bogometer just pegged up.

Someone asked about the gunboard denizens who claim he sold out for not immediately getting our right to own nukes certified. He replied,

"With 300,000,000 people in the country, you can't please everyone. For that matter, there's going to be quite a few that are incurably bitter. So, we'll just cling to our guns... "

Incidentally, I was a good boy this morning. Got in early today, so was going over to the LotsaBucks for some caffeinated goodness. Lo and behold, there is none other than Cathy Lanier sitting at an outdoor table having coffee with someone. In a fit of virtue, I did not go over there and yank her chain.

That's a future battle.

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While the rationalle and sentiment is understandable, SOMEONE is going to bring such a case sooner rather than later, and it WILL affect the overall arc of RKBA restoration attempts. I'm hoping Gura et al are spending a little time figuring out how to integrate such a case into their overall efforts with some approach other than "not now".

Considering that DC equates detachable-mag semis with MGs, this issue may arise from his own client. Scalia hinted at drawing the line at "unusually dangerous", which is exactly the argument DC will use when Mr. Heller gets 'round to registering his 1911.

It's A Trap!!!!

This is a clear case of a government denying rights through a registration process. People are forced to ASK for their right, PAY for their right, WAIT while the government mulls it over, and then are ultimately limited to the circumstances under which they may express that right.

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It is my belief that Gura and his team are setting up DC for a BIG fall. They probably KNEW that Fenty, et al would do something like this.

OK, what's happened? Heller tried to register his 1911, and his application for registration was denied. It was denied because:

1) He didn't have the 1911 with him as required by DC's new law, because

2) He couldn't, because DC law defines this ultra-plentiful semi-auto as an illegal "machinegun" and because

3) It would be necessary for Heller to violate the "machinegun" law in order to comply with the new registration law.

IOW, DC is saying: you must violate the law in order to comply with the law. Very ironic, as it echoes something that another guy named Heller made fun of in a very well known book and movie. Somehow, though, I don't think that the Court will find that amusing (except the amusement over Fenty's and DC's stupidity).

Now that the application has been denied he has standing to sue (as in the original case), and I'm betting that Gura & company are targeting the entire idea of obtaining a permit (for a fee, plus a hefty delay) to exercise a Constitutional right. IOW, I think that the Court may ultimately end up striking down ALL of DC's permitting process.

DC's licensing process wasn't addressed in the first case, and Scalia specifically said that the issue wasn't addressed because Heller didn't challenge it. Well, now he's going to, and DC walked right into Gura's trap.

Oh, and when the Court rules that the SF and Chicago rules are unconstitutional because of the application of the 2nd to the states via the 14th Amendment, the strikedown of permits and fees will apply to every single jurisdiction in the country. When/if average full autos like M16s are ruled to not be "unusually dangerous" the '34 NFA tax stamp will even go by the wayside.

Sometimes, I believe that Fenty cannot POSSIBLY be that STOOOPID, and wonder how much GOA is paying him. But then I come to my senses and begin to grasp Gura's sheer genius.

You know, a semi auto isn't a bottom loader if it is held sideways...

Methinks they won't be doing that long under a Supreme Court decision. Either DC Circuit or SCOTUS will unleash fury (they WON'T be so ignored), or the purpose of the 2nd Amendment will become apparent.

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I agree. Even the most vehement anti-gun federal judge would NOT allow DC's "revised" gun registration process to stand. They'd set their personal ideology aside, in order to preserve the authority of the federal courts over the subversion of DC municipal government. Its a matter of principle.

I agree. Even the most vehement anti-gun federal judge would NOT allow DC's "revised" gun registration process to stand. They'd set their personal ideology aside, in order to preserve the authority of the federal courts over the subversion of DC municipal government. Its a matter of principle.

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Judges, especially federal judges are pretty good at abiding by settled law, even if they do not personally approve of it.

Just out of curiosity how do you plan to transfer it to him? Is there an FFL in DC willing to do so?

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I plan on using a FFL that Heller designates. By the time the gun is built, we might have a few FFL's in DC to work with.

If not, I'll contact Josh Sugarman of the VPC. He has a valid FFL.

Josh Sugarmann does not have an FFL anymore. It was revoked by the ATFE.

Josh Sugarmann does not have an FFL anymore. It was revoked by the ATFE.

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Link to info as such? EZ Check still shows his license as expiring 03/01/2011

1-54-XXX-XX-XX-00725

You know, a semi auto isn't a bottom loader if it is held sideways...

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You, young man, owe me a keyboard.|

Pops

Lonnie:
He got a new FFL# when it was renewed earlier this year.

Kharn

Is this going to turn into another case like where the National Guard had to escort the black student into the school building in order to execute SCOTUS mandated civil rights?

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Forget sending in the DC National Guard... I'd airdrop the entire 82d Airborne into DC, and send the Marines ashore from the Potomac River. That would send one heck of a message to Fenty and his chronies.

When/if average full autos like M16s are ruled to not be "unusually dangerous" the '34 NFA tax stamp will even go by the wayside.

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Not going to happen. An M16 is "unusually dangerous." The whole point of the "unusually dangerous" and "common usage" language in Heller is to avoid creating a constitutional right to machine guns.

Considering that DC equates detachable-mag semis with MGs, this issue may arise from his own client. Scalia hinted at drawing the line at "unusually dangerous", which is exactly the argument DC will use when Mr. Heller gets 'round to registering his 1911.

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I think the whole DC "semi-auto == machine gun" thing is a red herring. Laws at every level commonly define the terms they use, which definitions are often substantially different from the common usage of the term. The court is just going to say, "Oh, so you define that as a 'machine gun.' How nice. Now, getting back to the question at hand, is this weapon in 'common usage'? It appears to this court that the M1911A1 practically defines the term 'common usage'..."

This is a supreme irony. Heller vs. DC decided that DC had to allow Heller to register his firearm. Yet, there's a catch-22: he's being required to present the firearm, which would in turn get him arrested (and/or have said firearm confiscated).

Catch-22 was written by Joseph Heller, and is the very definition of the term, with literal hundreds of examples of similar scenarios.

It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

I think one thing should be pointed out vis-a-vis Fenty's and the DC Council's definition of
"machine guns". I do believe the Court used the federal definition of pistols, semi-automatic, revolver, or what-have-you in lieu of the DC definition. I don't think it would take much to find the Council and Fenty in contempt.

Wouldn't you love to see Fenty and company brought before the bar to explain themselves?

Woody

Our government was designed by our Founding Fathers to fit within the framework of our rights and not vise versa. Any other "interpretation" of the Constitution is either through ignorance or is deliberately subversive. B.E. Wood

The whole point of the "unusually dangerous" and "common usage" language in Heller is to avoid creating a constitutional right to machine guns.

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Or maybe just to refer to the argument some antis make about a right to nukes and similar things. Which is not how arm is even defined by the founders at the time. They includes militia type arms on par with foriegn and domestic military soldiers.
Clearly militia type arms would include select fire weapons, which are the worldwide infantry standard now.

So the anti argument that often goes along the lines of "well then you have a right to a nuke, so we have to draw up some reasonable..." holds no water.

So I would not define what 'dangerous' or 'unusual' means in anti terms.

Common usuage is also up to interpretation. Common usage by who? The purpose of the second protects the types of arms in common usage by professional soldiers.
Our military and many of our police, both citizens, and police who are also civilians who regularly employ select fire weapons.

Finaly such things were clearly in common usage before they were restricted by an insane tax that was extremely prohibiting and several times the cost of the weapon during the great depression when many people could hardly feed themselves.

ARs are select fire by default, for the purpose which they were created. Clearly the widespread ARs in possession by many in America would be select fire as intended in the design if not due to legislation.
The very type of weapons that are select fire and in 'common use' by our infantry.
The infantry of the type of 'standing army' the founders intended the regular citizens of the militia to balance and be capable of resisting.

ARs are select fire by default, for the purpose which they were created. Clearly the widespread ARs in possession by many in America would be select fire as intended in the design if not due to legislation.
The very type of weapons that are select fire and in 'common use' by our infantry.
The infantry of the type of 'standing army' the founders intended the regular citizens of the militia to balance and be capable of resisting.

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Exactly.