Son-in-law assaulted

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Totally agree John.

If that post was making a case for the underprivileged or a specific group, what are people supposed to do, exactly? You can't stand in a circus midway and tell a group of multiple attackers that you understand their plight and rail on about sociology.

"Hey, I get it. You see women as objects since your Father left at an early age and treated your Mother like garbage. But, the social barriers you see around you are an illusion. Why, Max Weber...."
*smack*
 
JWarren said:
There are MANY in our culture that simply do not have the programming within their character to feel remorse for anything.

The point I made would have been more correctly stated as "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Thugs get beaten, shot, thrown in prison and beaten and shot, it isn't the romantic life that some would believe and so it will be for the puncher in this story.

JWarren said:
No offense, sir, but that is psycho-babble at its finest. Some of the worst bullies I've ever witnessed or encountered were children of privilege.

Like Chihuahua's and other crap dogs. Those are the most viscious because no one takes them seriously and no one bothers to correct them. A pit bull that acts in a similar manner is put down...
 
mbt2001 wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWarren
There are MANY in our culture that simply do not have the programming within their character to feel remorse for anything.

The point I made would have been more correctly stated as "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Thugs get beaten, shot, thrown in prison and beaten and shot, it isn't the romantic life that some would believe and so it will be for the puncher in this story.


Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWarren
No offense, sir, but that is psycho-babble at its finest. Some of the worst bullies I've ever witnessed or encountered were children of privilege.

Like Chihuahua's and other crap dogs. Those are the most viscious because no one takes them seriously and no one bothers to correct them. A pit bull that acts in a similar manner is put down...


I think I am seeing what you are saying, but I am rather dense this morning.

To follow the theme, I'd say that it would logically be the correct course to deal with the Chihuahua in the same manner as the Pit Bull.

However, I don't like the analogy. Its problematic for me to make a smooth transition to this case.

Fundamentally, I have to reject the notion that a person of privilege equates to a Chihuahua and a person of not-so-privilege equates to the Pit Bull. I've seen quite a few dangerous persons come form the former group and some not-so-dangerous persons come from the latter. I don't think the societal situation as relates to danger flows seamlessly.

I mention this because of the preconcieved notions about the smaller dogs and the Pit Bull. The imagery we get in our heads is that the smaller dog WANTS to be tough, but really isn't a threat while the Pit is actually a threat.

I have to reject the premise that a person out of a privileged background is more likely to be less of a threat-- based upon ability or mindset.

But I do see your analogy, and I probably shouldn't overanalyze it as I have.


-- John
 
uhhhh

Rich folks have good lawyers and continue to do "bad things" until they do something so bad that they can't get off. Same with those little yip dogs. It's funny when the yip dog bites the boy friend or something, but when he bites a kid, he gets put down...

In many cases had the Rich person been poorer, they would have not been sheilded from their mistakes for so long. The small size of the yip dogs sheild them, make it kind of a joke and people don't take their behavior seriously until they actually hurt a particularly innocent someone.

...deal with the Chihuahua in the same manner as the Pit Bull.
John, you are a great guy, but the world doesn't see things the way you do. I wished it did, but it doesn't, that is why there are so many viscious Chihuahua's out there... :neener: You are sometimes to logical for your own good. :p
 
Good point mbt2001.

As I expected, I am still a little groggy this morning. Thanks for elaborating.


-- John
 
"Hey, I get it. You see women as objects since your Father left at an early age and treated your Mother like garbage. But, the social barriers you see around you are an illusion. Why, Max Weber...."
*smack*
:rolleyes:

Priceless! Give the man a cigar!
 
Ahh yes the worlds going to hades in a hand basket..can't even go to a childs sports activity without the fear of being assaulted or the ref being assaulted or even the threat of a brawl in the stands amongst the parents.
 
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No offense, sir, but that is psycho-babble at its finest. Some of the worst bullies I've ever witnessed or encountered were children of privilege
Not talking about bullies. Bullying would be one or more roughing up or ostracizing someone because of a point of view or other perceived threat. Like a politically incorrect point of view on a gun board.

The original post referenced, as he put it, "gangs and thugs". A social phenomena rather than a personality dysfunction.

I've always thought that when one places "no offense" preceding a point that there's most likely plenty of offense intended............No offense!
.............but thanks for making my point!:)

CRITGIT
 
CRITGIT wrote:

I've always thought that when one places "no offense" preceding a point that there's most likely plenty of offense intended............No offense!
.............but thanks for making my point!

CRITGIT


If your point seeks to place the responsibility for gang/thug behavior on society as a whole and give ANY mediating circumstances to those that prey on others, I am glad to oblige.


-- John
 
There are many things wrong here. First is that of parents not raising their kids well. That is too complicated for me to get into here but I believe it has a lot to do with a lack of discipline. Secondly, a man with 17 convictions is walking free. Let the potheads out and put in violent criminals. Government needs to get their priorities straight.
 
The original post referenced, as he put it, "gangs and thugs". A social phenomena rather than a personality dysfunction.

IMO, the "witnesses" either goaded the perp into it or he talked a bunch of smack about what he was going to do. This was why someone would say "bully" and what are gangs but a "group" of people praying on the weaker, hence they join together collectively to be able to overcome through numbers even the strong, to oppose this, others join gangs so that they are not weak anymore...

West Side story was made in the 50's or something, and there were gangs and gang violence and the whole 9, so don't act like it just started 10 years ago... Colors was also made in the 80's.
 
Exactly! The exclusion of groups coming to this country and being treated poorly is fairly well documented. It's usually based on color, creed, national origin and or economic status. My grandparents told of stories almost beyond belief. It all changed for their children (not them sadly)when they became filthy rich.
There aren't many who would dispute the fact that we are now reaping what we so miserably have sewn for generations. It'll get worse as we go until and unless we educate and include all onto the American team.
I had an opportunity yesterday to have quite a long conversation with a family who was living here from India. Well into the visit I asked how they liked the "area" The father , a young man of approx 29-30 responded "It's OK ...a little narrow". I asked if that meant he had experienced some unpleasantness.

He said..Not on the job just away from the work place..it's quite bad! His wife informed me of his job. It turns out he is one of our communities outstanding respiratory pulmonologist. Work Americans won't do because they no longer have the drive or education.
Her concern was for her children. A year old daughter and a young boy about to enter K. A nicer family I've not met. However they may soon be elsewhere because of narrow minded bigots. I only hope those who drive them away are soon in desperate need of his services.
BTW, his social group is made up of others who came here from other lands for a better life...many are fellow physicians. They cling together as has been the case in this country since day one. Segregated long enough only bad can result...or have we forgotten.


CRITGIT
 
CRITGIT,

I have a number of counter points that I can make to this-- and was about to.

However, in a rare moment of self-moderation, I'd like to invite you (or one of those of us who would discuss the nature of gang development) to open a thread at APS:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/


I suspect that the moderators will appreciate it.


-- John
 
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"The original post referenced, as he put it, "gangs and thugs". A social phenomena rather than a personality dysfunction."


You always hear about the poor thugs who have no daddy and were raised by a family member in poverty .
What you don't hear about is the others from the same area who take advantage of programs ,stay in school and get off their asses and make something of themselves.
Sorry but I don't buy the excuse "that I'm poor and it's easier to sell drugs / rob then to get a job/stay in school'"
If you see the documentaries on gang bangers they are always bragging about how much money they pull in each day.
Well take that money then and get out of the hood. Then what will the excuse be?
These people CHOOSE to be animals and the only thing they understand is
extreme brutal violence.
Until they get locked up and find Jesus.

Flame away

PS
I speak from experience- I grew up in Plainfield NJ and lost my younger 17yr old brother 20 years ago in a "gang related incident'.
 
No poor thugs or sympathy here just stating a simple reality that this stuff comes as a result of other behaviors and policies.
The more disenfranchised the group the more dysfunctional and gang bound they become.
Simply put ....and without violin accompaniment!
In a society that places such importance and significance on color and race it only follows that gangs formed based on this common bond will not be varnishing any time soon.
We could be so much greater as a nation without these attitudes and practices. Education is the answer....but sadly that system is now broken as well.
Some participants in this thread aren't likely to forms new views on this subject. I'm no different.

One thing's for sure...we're droppin' like a hot rock as a culture/country and a different path is way, way overdue.
Again, we're not going to incarcerate or shoot our way out of this one!


CRITGIT
 
July 20th, 2008, 02:23 PM #7

dogmush wrote:


Flame suit on, but I'm with Treo on this one.

12 on 1, Ambushed at a placeof their choosing, with little ones? I'm instantly on the offensive. Clear the kill zone early and attack. Keep walking, say "Move" once, and if their still there when you get in reach start breaking bones. Don't mess around with hitting someone in the mouth; hurt them. The sooner the leader is on the ground and bleading, the better chance you have of breaking the Mob menatlity.

I'm sorry that this happened to your SIL, and interestingly enough it's the second story I've read in two days where a man was attacked by a mob in front of witnesses and noone intervined. What happened to community where people watch their neighbors get attacked and do nothing but call for help? How about stopping the attack?

I figure too many lawyers has something to do with it. I figure if I follow this advice I become the attacker ... I have assaulted someone and those lawyers will bleed me dry defending myself. My dad always tells me that life is tough, and then you die ... tougher if you are stupid added John Wayne.

It seems to me folks spend a lot of time rationalizing which laws they will honor, and which is okay for them to break. An interesting world we live in.
 
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I haven't read this entire thread, but I have read the OP's story and some of the first responses.

There's just nothing you can do in a 12 v. 1 situation where you're surrounded with what the OP described as "animals."

Even if one were to draw their CCW and pre-emptively shoot one of them, and continue shooting at the group (highly, highly illegal), they'd eventually take you down and potentially use your gun on you, if not merely beat you to death. If they were all in front of you, and at a distance, then yeah, I suppose this could work, but it'd still land you a long stay in jail, which would potentially include a lot more than just one beating...

It sounds as if your son in law was in condition white that day, and that's what allowed him to be surrounded in the first place. I think what you should really emphasize to your son in law is the situationally aware mindset that comes with serious consideration of a CCW or martial arts training The key to these situations is simply to never find yourself in this sort of situation, because they are unwinnable, and frankly, to have been in such a situation, and to get away with just taking one sucker punch... it seems like a pretty good outcome with all things considered.

As for the punch first suggestion, I could see it going as a 50/50. On one hand, it could scare the crap out of the leader's buddies to realize that their target is potentially more prone to violence than they are, which would cause them to flee. On the other hand, it would just initiate the challenge that they were looking for, and end in a beating that would likely require hospitalization, since the first strike on the part of the victim would initiate a frenzy that would have been non-existent with a more "docile" victim. The odds of having them disperse as a result of striking the first blow just isn't worth it when you consider the risk.
 
CRITGIT,

I believe that you have a fairly accurate view of the origins of gangs.

In the origins, I will question the emphasis placed upon a racial component. History will show that many of the “outlaw Biker gangs” were predominantly white and to a lesser degree Hispanic. For this reason, I have to conclude a predominant organizing factor of gangs is economically-driven.

Obviously, there is a national origin/creed component to “gangs” if we consider the Italian, Irish, and Jewish mafias—which certainly qualify as gangs in their own right. Later to the game, we see the Japanese mafia.

However, this national origin/creed component—in my opinion—is subordinate to the economic component. From what I have gathered, there would be no need for developing a cohesive group centered around a commonality without a level of disenfranchisement.

But you know what? Our history is filled with examples of disenfranchisement originating around ethnic/national/creed lines. Many immigrating groups to the US met and rose above the same challenges.

The Irish have been a well-known group that met discrimination/disenfranchisement. German and Italian immigrants knew it as well. After the Vietnam War, we saw an influx of Vietnamese immigrants. I wager that they met quite a bit of disenfranchisement – and yet they have for the large part met those challenges.

And in the formation of this country and throughout its waves of immigration, groups of common origin have tended to band together out of necessity or comfort. There have been many areas that were primarily settled by groups from one particular origin.

And disenfranchised former indentured servants were a large component of our nation’s push into the frontier. Having very little in the way of resources—if anything—and prospects in the population centers, they set out into the frontiers. I can’t imagine anything more disenfranchised as that. And it largely was based upon economic conditions.

Our nation has always been a struggle against a type of “Balkanization.” Today, I see a certain degree of regression in our efforts to remain assimilated in a cohesive nation. I see groups of various origins having no desire to be Americans—but rather [fill-in-the-blank] Americans. We are carving ourselves up into subcomponents.

Where I find myself in conflict with your assessment is where the “blame” lies. You say we are/have “dropped the ball.” I disagree.

For decades, the USA has done MORE to address disenfranchisement than probably any country in history. Indeed, it is doing more today that it ever did for a multitude of groups that have faced and risen above disenfranchisement.

With the resources available to ANY American how is willing to work towards a brighter tomorrow, the economic need in formulating gangs has been essentially eliminated. There is government assistance if you need to eat. If you want to go to college, you can go without a dime to your name. In short, anyone who tries CAN rise above the level we see in gang life.

No.

Gang motives today are about Greed, Laziness, and Immediate Gratification.

I say greed because we have a constant bombardment of materialism in our society today. Everyone must have “Bling.” I see it every day. Both my wife and I work in schools that are in impoverished areas.

I say laziness not in the terms of work, but drive. For many it is more appealing to sell drugs or engage in other contraband activities than it is to read a book, take a test, and apply to a college or trade school.

And I say immediate gratification because it is obtainable NOW without putting in the time and effort to build a foundation that one can build a family upon.


To ask society to take responsibility for this condition is to ask it to take responsibility for human nature itself. The reality is that NO society can eliminate those aspects of itself that are cleaved from mainstream society. The reality is that no society can eliminate those who place their own interests above that of others and of morality itself.

The reality is that economic disparities can NEVER be eliminated. There will always be those on either extreme of the bell-curve.

I’ve long asserted that the nature of our world is savagery and that we see pockets of civility arise out of this chaos on occasion. The USA has been one of those pockets. But like every other great nation in history, it becomes a victim of its own success.

So what is the answer? There isn’t one. There is no answer to human nature other than acceptance. But neither is there guilt that there isn’t an answer. With the resources available today, if one chooses gang-life, it IS a choice.



-- John
 
Let's see if we can't steer this back towards Strategies and Tactics if we could, and away from sociology. I think we are all agreed that it's dangerous out there. The main question here is, how do we prepare ourselves and our loved ones to deal with it the situation?

Thanks,

lpl/nc
 
I'm not suggesting "justification" but certainly explanation as to how we got here and how we proceed forward.
Many of the groups /cultures you mentioned brought much of an existing culture/work ethic with them. In almost all cases they opted to be here often at huge personal costs and sacrifice. Of course one group DID NOT...they were kidnapped and the victims of years of sub human treatment. These conditions existed and in some cases continue to exist in my lifetime and perhaps yours.
As to greed the worst offenders aren't gang members but ivory tower dwellers.
As to instant gratification, well that's become an American way of life presently as a result of the commercial success of the concept "You're entitled to this NOW!" The housing crisis/ banking mess is a good example.
Gangs don't have a franchise on laziness. I was fortunate enough to have been raised in a very affluent family and surroundings.
I witnessed some real atrocities perpetrated on the less fortunate by many "Haves"! Greed, and laziness was their motivation and they were without conscience.

I guess in the great candy store we call America folks are going to use the tools at their disposal to participate.
Sure there will always be economic disparity but it doesn't have to be to the degree we experience it today.

The present path of filthy rich v filthy poor with little or no middle class is a dangerous one. I submit we attempt to fix it or it surely will snap.
Thanks for your input and thoughts on the subject.

CRITGIT
 
Let's see if we can't steer this back towards Strategies and Tactics if we could, and away from sociology.

Whatever happened to the OP's thread?

As interesting as sociology can be - that's not what this thread was about. What's going on here now is called "thread-jacking". I've been guilty of it myself on occasion. I've also learned what the "PM" function is for.

I wonder what part of the mods above suggestion is being mis-understood?
 
Agreed rainbowbob.

As I mentioned above-- and then broke-- this would be a great discussion for APS.com.

I'm out. Perhaps I'll cut/past a few of the posts here into a thread and start it there-- assuming that I have persmission from the posters.


-- John
 
As the new guy on the block it wasn't my intention to jack the thread either.
The emotional quality of the subject has a way of lending itself to the macro as well as the micro. Hope every one's OK!:)

CRITGIT
 
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