Deanimator
Member
The idea that she should even TRY is contemptible.
.44 Special in thin-walled apartment?
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Old Grump
Member
Old Grump,
I would strongly suggest you take a look at the ballistics of birdshot before you try to touch one off and try to dispatch an unwelcome guest. The birdshot will cause a very ugly looking shallow wound cavity. It will probably just tick him off. Like someone once told me, only use birdshot if you're up against birds. They make buckshot and slugs for a reason.
Aaryq I have had this conversation many times. Slugs and Buck are going to go through walls, I don't want to go through walls. I always shoot a 2x4 with #4 shot before I teach a weapons familiarization class at 10'. The hole is impressive. I also point out that the human body is not made of gelatin, clay, wet phone books or even newspapers. My objective is to stop the bad guy not send him to the pearly gates in pieces. At home defense range of 10' in a house the spread of the shot isn't going to be much more than an inch if that. It might even still be in the wad and it will go into the wound too. Even a hopped up doper is going to feel that and if you have to shoot him again then by all means do so. I do not want shotgun pellets of any size in me and I don't care if penetration is 1" or 6" it is going to hurt like blazes. That kind of pain will stop hostilities unless you are fighting the android army. Unless you are using a sub gauge like a 28 or 410 you will be putting an ounce or more of lead into the target and all that energy is going to be concentrated in a small area but being small light pellets no need to worry about penetrating through and taking out your cat laying on the couch. At 20' the pattern will cover the whole torso and if its winter time and the guy is wearing an old Navy peacoat and a sweater and a flannel shirt and long johns it won't bother him much. Unless you aimed for his face and if he is that far away and hasn't shown signs of retreat or surrender that is exactly where you should aim. My defense load is the same load I use for turkey. 20 gauge, 2 3/4", #4 shot.
I have large powerful handguns capable of throwing 230 grains and blowing up milk jugs at 100 yards shooting off hand. I have rifles that will hit a target with 180 grain bullets at 1,000 yards if I do my part. In spite of that I would go for my 20 gauge and leave the 12's sitting. I have less recoil, I have less noise and I have less muzzle flash to disorient me and if Mr. Boogerman still wants to play I can give him an encore. I don't see that eventuality happening very often. The first shot should get his attention and no more shots need to be fired. If I was armed with my 357 filled with 38 spcl I might have to empty the gun into a determined attacker. That is why I say go for the shotgun. At belly button range the 38 is more than enough shooting from your bed but if you have time to get up go for the gusto, Mr. Mossberg in my case. Sometimes bigger isn't always better, especially if you just woke up to the sound of your door being kicked in.
I would strongly suggest you take a look at the ballistics of birdshot before you try to touch one off and try to dispatch an unwelcome guest. The birdshot will cause a very ugly looking shallow wound cavity. It will probably just tick him off. Like someone once told me, only use birdshot if you're up against birds. They make buckshot and slugs for a reason.
Aaryq I have had this conversation many times. Slugs and Buck are going to go through walls, I don't want to go through walls. I always shoot a 2x4 with #4 shot before I teach a weapons familiarization class at 10'. The hole is impressive. I also point out that the human body is not made of gelatin, clay, wet phone books or even newspapers. My objective is to stop the bad guy not send him to the pearly gates in pieces. At home defense range of 10' in a house the spread of the shot isn't going to be much more than an inch if that. It might even still be in the wad and it will go into the wound too. Even a hopped up doper is going to feel that and if you have to shoot him again then by all means do so. I do not want shotgun pellets of any size in me and I don't care if penetration is 1" or 6" it is going to hurt like blazes. That kind of pain will stop hostilities unless you are fighting the android army. Unless you are using a sub gauge like a 28 or 410 you will be putting an ounce or more of lead into the target and all that energy is going to be concentrated in a small area but being small light pellets no need to worry about penetrating through and taking out your cat laying on the couch. At 20' the pattern will cover the whole torso and if its winter time and the guy is wearing an old Navy peacoat and a sweater and a flannel shirt and long johns it won't bother him much. Unless you aimed for his face and if he is that far away and hasn't shown signs of retreat or surrender that is exactly where you should aim. My defense load is the same load I use for turkey. 20 gauge, 2 3/4", #4 shot.
I have large powerful handguns capable of throwing 230 grains and blowing up milk jugs at 100 yards shooting off hand. I have rifles that will hit a target with 180 grain bullets at 1,000 yards if I do my part. In spite of that I would go for my 20 gauge and leave the 12's sitting. I have less recoil, I have less noise and I have less muzzle flash to disorient me and if Mr. Boogerman still wants to play I can give him an encore. I don't see that eventuality happening very often. The first shot should get his attention and no more shots need to be fired. If I was armed with my 357 filled with 38 spcl I might have to empty the gun into a determined attacker. That is why I say go for the shotgun. At belly button range the 38 is more than enough shooting from your bed but if you have time to get up go for the gusto, Mr. Mossberg in my case. Sometimes bigger isn't always better, especially if you just woke up to the sound of your door being kicked in.
Aaryq
Member
Old Grump, go ahead and use your anti-bird devices. I'll use as much gun as I can. Just remember, if I send the BG to the pearly gates, he can't sue me. When that tweaker high on speed who's trying to break into your house, panics when he sees you and attacks, you shoot him and he doesn't stop, don't come crying to me. With someone intent on hurting you or drugged so he can't feel pain, you'd might as well load rocksalt because you're just going to tick him off anyway. Put him down. Down for the count. That's it.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Aaryq, it appears that you are so intent on promoting your vierw that you have lost sight of the original question, which was asking about what's safe to use in a thin-walled apartment.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but personally, I would not want to be touching of 12-gauge loads of buckshot in a thin-walled apartment.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but personally, I would not want to be touching of 12-gauge loads of buckshot in a thin-walled apartment.
Deanimator
Member
I would find that infinitely preferable to my best friend standing in front of a room full of people in dark suits, telling everybody what a great guy I WAS. And I don't have anybody ELSE to protect.
Patrick Henry
Member
I remember a story on the local news about a year ago. A guy had just finished arguing with his girlfriend (or so he thought). He was sitting in the living room watching TV and before he could react, his girlfriend walked in and shot him in the stomach with a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun was loaded with buckshot. He survived with no permanent injury. They interviewed him sitting in the exact same chair in which he was shot complete with bullet holes in the back; then he pulled up his shirt to reveal about 10 nasty entry and exit scars on his front and back sides.
Amazingly, none of the shot had hit a major blood vessel or organ.
Man can be a remarkably resilient creature. People in combat have had limbs blown off and kept fighting. By choosing a load designed to kill birds IMHO you are seriously compromising your ability to stop anything...except, as one poster said, a 2x4. The human body is also not made out of 2x4s. Personally I am more afraid of being hit with a single .38 special than getting hit with birdshot. Birdshot just will not penetrate well.
Discharging firearms is a dangerous activity.
Sometime, you might have to do something dangerous to save your life.
Not too long ago, I lived in an apartment like the OP described. My home defense weapons were a 9mm handgun beside the bed and an AK-47 underneath it.
Yes both weapons would surely penetrate the walls of the apartment. It's not something I was happy about, but I had effective weapons I could count on. If the choice is between death and a less than 1% chance of hitting an innocent person, what would you choose?
Maybe it's reckless, but if somebody is trying to break down my door to murder me I am grabbing the most effective weapon I have, even if it might penetrate a wall. That's just me.
Let me offer a quote here:
"An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration...The concern that a bullet would pass through a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. A review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss a subject entirely.
"...No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued because a bullet hit an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."
-- Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, pg. 12
I believe a .44 special will also surely penetrate the walls of an apartment.
I believe a bullet from a gun that hits your attacker (especially a hollow-point) does not pose a significant risk to somebody on the other side of 1 (and probably several) intervening walls.
Amazingly, none of the shot had hit a major blood vessel or organ.
Man can be a remarkably resilient creature. People in combat have had limbs blown off and kept fighting. By choosing a load designed to kill birds IMHO you are seriously compromising your ability to stop anything...except, as one poster said, a 2x4. The human body is also not made out of 2x4s. Personally I am more afraid of being hit with a single .38 special than getting hit with birdshot. Birdshot just will not penetrate well.
Discharging firearms is a dangerous activity.
Sometime, you might have to do something dangerous to save your life.
Not too long ago, I lived in an apartment like the OP described. My home defense weapons were a 9mm handgun beside the bed and an AK-47 underneath it.
Yes both weapons would surely penetrate the walls of the apartment. It's not something I was happy about, but I had effective weapons I could count on. If the choice is between death and a less than 1% chance of hitting an innocent person, what would you choose?
Maybe it's reckless, but if somebody is trying to break down my door to murder me I am grabbing the most effective weapon I have, even if it might penetrate a wall. That's just me.
Let me offer a quote here:
"An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration...The concern that a bullet would pass through a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. A review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss a subject entirely.
"...No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued because a bullet hit an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."
-- Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, pg. 12
I believe a .44 special will also surely penetrate the walls of an apartment.
I believe a bullet from a gun that hits your attacker (especially a hollow-point) does not pose a significant risk to somebody on the other side of 1 (and probably several) intervening walls.
machinisttx
Member
I guess they never talked to NYPD or the NY Transit Authority. :banghead: Several officers in NY were hit by an over penetrating bullet from a seperate officer's gun, as well as numerous bystanders being hit. The lawsuits are the reason they switched from FMJ to HP.
I suspect that a whole lot of people here haven't shot many live animals with a shotgun at close range. I have, and I know that even birdshot will physically remove meat and bone at close range. A 1-2" diameter open wound is NOT going to make the bad guy laugh and keep coming. Do I recommend birdshot? No. Will it work up close? Yes.
GigaBuist
Member
Well, to be fair, the population density in NYC is pretty darned high. That'll affect the incident rate of folks getting hit with errant shots. Contrast that with, say, Montana, where you could rip off a 30 round mag from an AK off your back porch into the air and not hit anything time after time.
Now, honestly, how often do we hear of a regular citizen hitting somebody in a self defense shooting that wasn't the intended target? How about ones that happen in the home? I can't recollect a single one, and I follow the news like a crack addict, especially on such matters. I'm not saying it never happens, but it's exceptionally rare, rare enough to slip below my radar.
How may reports do we have of folks having an ND in their very own homes on this board? A pretty good handful, but nobody killed their neighbor. Yes, I'm aware of ND's that have happened to non-members that made the news because they killed their neighbor, but they're rare.
Still, it's good to be concerned about penetration matters, but we might fret about it a bit too much.
I say run whatever you feel comfortable with. Odds are you'll never actually need it.
UHH OHH the HD birdshot VS. buckshot argument.
Yes Yes buckshot will kill things better than birdshot.
HOWEVER I have read posts where LEOs have said they have seen people shot in the chest close up with birdshot DRT. So there you go.
Birdshot like #4 like O.G. said he is using seems to nicely fit his needs.
Really....people always give that same extreme example of the BG who gets shot and keeps on coming at you.
There are VERY VERY few people that are going to do that.
By far the, VAST majority of people who get shot run away as fast as they can OR just fall down and scream.
Besides, to stop this extreme robo BG you will have to hit the heart or CNS , hit him anyplace else, be it birdshot or a .44 mag, it won't matter because it takes time to bleed out.
What to use for HD is always a compromise, this one seems to fit the bill for O.G.
OH and Yoda the .44 special is going through a bunch of walls. (see boxOtruth link .45 hp with through 6+ walls.
I have mine loaded with winchester silvertips, it will go through walls but I have decided that Im ok with that.
Yes Yes buckshot will kill things better than birdshot.
HOWEVER I have read posts where LEOs have said they have seen people shot in the chest close up with birdshot DRT. So there you go.
Birdshot like #4 like O.G. said he is using seems to nicely fit his needs.
Really....people always give that same extreme example of the BG who gets shot and keeps on coming at you.
There are VERY VERY few people that are going to do that.
By far the, VAST majority of people who get shot run away as fast as they can OR just fall down and scream.
Besides, to stop this extreme robo BG you will have to hit the heart or CNS , hit him anyplace else, be it birdshot or a .44 mag, it won't matter because it takes time to bleed out.
What to use for HD is always a compromise, this one seems to fit the bill for O.G.
OH and Yoda the .44 special is going through a bunch of walls. (see boxOtruth link .45 hp with through 6+ walls.
I have mine loaded with winchester silvertips, it will go through walls but I have decided that Im ok with that.
True, but then we should all use .22 pistols and bird shot right? I always plan on the BG not stopping unless he physically cannot continue. Whether it's with a firearm or a knife or H2H, I plan on having to break him sufficiently that he can't continue whether he wants to or not. That takes the subjectivity out of it.
There are plenty of examples of BG's fighting after being shot (multiple times) with effective calibers. Why make it worse by handicapping yourself? A home invasion is already an extreme situation. Shooting someone with a deadly weapon is extreme. The type of person who would invade somebody else's home to do them harm is an extreme case. In preparation for the above...why on earth would you handicap yourself with a less than ideal weapon or round choice pointing to the best case (some people have died from bird shot at close range and it really hurts) and ignoring the worse case which will cost you your life and perhaps everyone else you love as well?
It's like having a fire extinguisher with a mild cleaning agent in it that won't harm the furniture or carpet. Sure, it doesn't put fires out as well as the messy foam, but most fires homeowners deal with are small anyway.
Patrick Henry
Member
machinisttx said:
Well the NYPD ain't exactly renowned for their outstanding marksmanship.
Why would they shoot in the direction of a fellow officer?
How are their own people ending up in the line of fire? Not once, but on "several" occasions? Sounds like ****ty training to me. Reminds me of the story of how a dozen odd member's of NY's finest responded to a call of a pit bull attacking people. According to the story they surrounded it and opened fire. Supposedly out of 50 some rounds (I can't recall the exact numbers) they hit the dog twice and themselves a few times more.
Probably not true, but then again....
Old Grump
Member
You can make all the plans you want
When the party starts you don't know how you will react till you have been there. Realistically my motto is bigger is almost always bigger but sometimes situations require a little adjustment. An average woman and few men can shoot a 44 mag as well as I can so I advocate what they can shoot well. A 38 or 380 or 9MM will do them better than missing with a 40 or 45. A 12 gauge with slugs of buck of any flavor will do very well but remember adrenaline is up, shooter may be new to guns or of small stature or may have just been woken up by a door being kicked in or the dog barking. You will not be at your best, this is real life not a video game.
I don't care how much hair you have on your chest, you will be scared, mad and confused. If you don't take these factors into account then you aren't being practical. Been to the dance and didn't like it. I was a lot younger, stronger and more mobile then and I still nearly wet my pants, not sure that I didn't. If I am going to meet a booger man I'd rather meet him on the street than in the dark in my house. I have no problem retreating or fighting dirty but my house is supposed to be my safe place and when that is taken from you things are different. Especially when you have family there who aren't capable of defense like a blind sister. That is why I make compromises I feel are sufficient.
I too follow the news and I remember 3 cases but they were so long ago I can't cite references. 2 were children hit by stray bullets from another house and one was an old man drinking coffee who was shot in the head when the neighbor firing at a home invader missed and shot through the window. I remember that one particularly because the man had just retired the day before and it happened in Bedford Park Illinois not to far from where I worked.
When the party starts you don't know how you will react till you have been there. Realistically my motto is bigger is almost always bigger but sometimes situations require a little adjustment. An average woman and few men can shoot a 44 mag as well as I can so I advocate what they can shoot well. A 38 or 380 or 9MM will do them better than missing with a 40 or 45. A 12 gauge with slugs of buck of any flavor will do very well but remember adrenaline is up, shooter may be new to guns or of small stature or may have just been woken up by a door being kicked in or the dog barking. You will not be at your best, this is real life not a video game.
I don't care how much hair you have on your chest, you will be scared, mad and confused. If you don't take these factors into account then you aren't being practical. Been to the dance and didn't like it. I was a lot younger, stronger and more mobile then and I still nearly wet my pants, not sure that I didn't. If I am going to meet a booger man I'd rather meet him on the street than in the dark in my house. I have no problem retreating or fighting dirty but my house is supposed to be my safe place and when that is taken from you things are different. Especially when you have family there who aren't capable of defense like a blind sister. That is why I make compromises I feel are sufficient.
I too follow the news and I remember 3 cases but they were so long ago I can't cite references. 2 were children hit by stray bullets from another house and one was an old man drinking coffee who was shot in the head when the neighbor firing at a home invader missed and shot through the window. I remember that one particularly because the man had just retired the day before and it happened in Bedford Park Illinois not to far from where I worked.
Rmart30
Member
Frangibles are the only way to go in your situation... you would be very surprised to see just how little "normal walls" stop bullets....
Ive seen handgun calibers shot from outside wood framed houses go thru the outside sheeting, thru 4 sheets of sheet rock and back out the back walls sheeting.
Living in a apartment the first thing I would check is the entry doors hinges and latch plates. When I checked my homes doors I found that the door hinges and the striker plates were installed with 1/2" screws. I replaced those asap with 3" decking screws that anchored into the wall studs and inner core on door.
I also bought at lowes a 1/8" piece of flatbar 24" long for $5...
I drilled 6 holes in it and cut with a jig saw the square holes for the door handle and dead bolt to go into and screwed it over the existing strikers.
There is enough gap on most entry doors ive looked at to do this and it has to be 10x stronger than what it was before...
Ive seen handgun calibers shot from outside wood framed houses go thru the outside sheeting, thru 4 sheets of sheet rock and back out the back walls sheeting.
Living in a apartment the first thing I would check is the entry doors hinges and latch plates. When I checked my homes doors I found that the door hinges and the striker plates were installed with 1/2" screws. I replaced those asap with 3" decking screws that anchored into the wall studs and inner core on door.
I also bought at lowes a 1/8" piece of flatbar 24" long for $5...
I drilled 6 holes in it and cut with a jig saw the square holes for the door handle and dead bolt to go into and screwed it over the existing strikers.
There is enough gap on most entry doors ive looked at to do this and it has to be 10x stronger than what it was before...
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