Why is this an issue at all?

To get back to the OP:

But if you take down ANY gun for cleaning without FIRST MAKING DANG SURE IT'S EMPTY, you're an idiot.

Thoughts?

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I agree.

With this line of reasoning we will quickly loose the justification for anyone to own anything that 'may' be dangerous in the hands of those who are not responsible.

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Not at all. Most anything useful is dangerous to some extent; From bullets to garden hoses.

Where did you get the idea that I would disallow Glocks because they are dangerous?

All I am saying is that I think there are better thought out ways of disassembling a gun.

Sorry...

Long day.

I understand where you are coming from...

Take care

where do you draw the line?

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Who said anything about drawing lines? Are you familiar with the "slippery slope" logical fallacy? I'm afraid you have fallen into one in this case.

It seems that you 'feel' that I am slighting Glocks. Glocks are good guns. As I said, I own two. I wouldn't own them if I thought they were unsafe.

The take down procedure is one of three things that I would change in the basic design of the Glock. Contrary to the marketing hype, Glocks are not perfect.

Why is this an issue at all?

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Good question? So what is this discussion about? Some folks continue to act as if guns are unloaded when they actually are loaded and so occasionally shoot someone or something that they don't intend to. This is why the four rules make very good sense. They are used, not because Cooper came up with them, but because they work.

Even when you know that the gun is unloaded if you continue to treat as if it were when it comes to dry firing, practicing a draw, etc. and follow the other three interlocking rules the chances of shooting your T.V., water heater or your neighbor are greatly reduced. So if you have to drop the hammer (or striker) on your piece to safely disassemble it, EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT'S UNLOADED point it in a safe direction.

The overly literal minded don't get the 4 rules ("If I treat my gun as if it's always loaded how can I clean it?"). They are stumped by this. But then the same folks live in fear of removing the tags on their mattresses. You can't help folks cursed with this disease.

tipoc

Why is it when someone shoots themselves with a..oh..let's say...a Smith & Wesson revolver, they're stupid.

But when they shoot themselves with a GLOCK it's a "poor design"?

I have no idea.

"Progress" is good.

The S&W M&P eliminated the Glock "design flaw" of having to pull the trigger to disassemble.

No doubt the next generation of Glocks will have that feature, and others!

In both the case of the Glock and the example Smith & Wesson revolver, the user almost certainly did the same thing: pulled the trigger. For the revolver, however, there is absolutely no reason to do so during cleaning/maintenance, so it comes down to somebody was playing with it.

I'm not a Glock fan, but...

I don't see it as an issue. I've heard of or seen several ND's with other firearms, to include a shot pickup truck (12ga) shot haywagon (.22 rifle) shot hunting cabin roof (7mm Mag) (incidentally, he was "cleaning" it and launched a cleaning rod into orbit, as well as his hunting companions).

Not checking the chamber results in the same loud noises no matter what make, model or caliber the arm happens to be. If you are not going to stow it for use or fire it immediately, render it clear and safe. If you have other bad habits, change them before it's too late.

I don't see it as the end of the world, but anything that forces the use of an inherently dangerous action (e.g. pulling the trigger is generally intended to launch a bit of lead) creates room for error.

Imagine if the only way to service the engine on a car were to be sticking your finger in the engine while someone else turns the key...oh, and make sure the battery is disconnected before doing it. It's a stretch of an analogy, but the general primary function of turning the key is to make parts move.

And I don't believe you can chalk everything down to stupidity. People are fallible, and throw in exhaustion, a long day on duty, a wife yelling at you to get your ass home, a requirement to clean your pistol before leaving the range, people talking to you, people yelling at you, and on and on, it becomes difficult to keep track of everything.

For such a user-friendly design, it WAS an interesting design choice, and I hope everyone here remembers to double check that chamber!