Destructo6
Member
No way, unless they're already int he middle of a pirouette.
ilbob, the difference is that a LEO is legally authorized to use force to include lethal force and sometimes compelled to do so.
Road Rage:Federal Agent Killed at Broward County FL,Post Office
- Thread starter Solo Flyer
- Start date
- Status
ilbob, the difference is that a LEO is legally authorized to use force to include lethal force and sometimes compelled to do so.
Aguila Blanca
Member
What difference does it make if the agent had identified himself as an LEO? He could still have threatened the shooter. The agent clearly was not engaged in any official capacity when he was following the older guy into the parking lot to continue a road rage argument. In many states, the mere act of following him would be construed as stalking.
SharonAnne
Member
from what I read on page 1 it seems the 'victim' was the aggressor, leaving his car to continue the confrontation.
instead of pulling into the parking lot, he should have driven on, disengaging from the situation.
instead of pulling into the parking lot, he should have driven on, disengaging from the situation.
Mickstix
Member
I dont see how "self defense" will ever fly in this case.. Thinkin' you may be in for an arse-kickin is no reason to use deadly force..
Self-defense won't fly regardless. The government isn't going to let somebody get away with slaying on of their own. Unless the agent was committing some kind of blatant crime...which obviously he wasn't... this guy is more likely than not going to be injected with a needle containing some very special chemicals that make you sleep for a very long time
Mickstix
Member
You may think it's reason, but it's certainly not "law".. Fearing a butt whippin is far from "fearing for your life"....
Valkman
Member
Really? Say that after you've had a liver transplant. I'm 52 and disabled and would have no problem shooting an unarmed person if I thought they were going to hurt me.
Shooting an unarmed person does NOT mean it was a bad shoot! If this cop had not followed the older guy into the parking lot he'd be alive now and he was at least as much at fault in this. It was indeed mutual combat.
Fleeing the scene, dying your hair and renting a car are NOT the actions of a "poor, helpless, innocent old man acting in self-defense."
They're the actions of a CRIMINAL who knows he's done something very wrong, and is clearly attempting to evade arrest.
If it had been a "good" self-defense shoot, he would've stayed at the scene and called police.
Mr. Wonder would be wise to plead guilty to second degree murder, and plead for a lenient sentence based on (1) The victim did help escalate the situation. (2) Wonder's health status is poor. Being on dialysis, he's probably not long for this world anyway, unless he's lucky enough to find a donor for a transplant in the near future.
gretske
Member
Just one minor point here. The determination of whether he was shot in the back or not still has to be made by the medical examiner. LEOs on the scene often make wrong calls on which is the entry and which is the exit wound.
divemedic
Member
Remember that the standard is "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm." Great bodily harm can include broken bones, and does in many states.
Or they could be the panic reactions of a guy who just had to shoot someone and didn't know quite what to do afterward. Anyone in a rational state of mind is going to realize that none of those things is going to help him out.
Hopefully this will be tried in state court and he will get a chance at a fair trial.
Last edited:
KelVarnson
Member
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 255
Either it was a good self-defense shoot, or it wasn't.
Wonder's fleeing the scene is a separate crime, and should be treated as such.
The fact he ran away does not change the events that led to Pettit's death.
Wonder's fleeing the scene is a separate crime, and should be treated as such.
The fact he ran away does not change the events that led to Pettit's death.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Mick, in most (if not all) states, the standard for use of lethal (or "deadly," depending on the state) force in self defense is not limited to fear of losing your life. As Divemedic posted above, the usual standard is fear of death or "grievous" bodily harm. Thus, for an older man with chronic medical problems to have been followed into a parking lot and accosted by an irate younger man, possibly in visibly better physical shape, who may have threatened to pound his [bleep] through the pavement -- yeah, in such a situation a "reasonable person in the same situation" might well have feared great bodily harm -- and that WOULD be legal justification to employ lethal force in self defense.mickstix said:
Vonderek
Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2006
- Messages
- 1,536
Or it could be the reaction of an elderly retiree who felt he was defending himself from a guy who returned to the parking lot to escalate the confrontation..... After the shoot he maybe realized his life savings would be liquidated defending himself in court, leaving himself and wife destitute. Add to that the images on TV of SWAT pulling people out of every Chrysler LX at M4 gunpoint and I can see why the shooter might want to disguise himself. Cop killers have a way of getting themselves killed during a manhunt down here in Florida. Not saying running and disguising himself was the right thing to do but there's a lot of "maybes" in this case and we may never know exactly what transpired that day. It will be interesting to see if that post office parking lot has security cameras and what they show happened.
Solo Flyer
member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2008
- Messages
- 581
It's amazing to read the comments in the Herald article Defensory posted.
They're running about 10 to 1 in favor of Mr.Wonder, primarily based on the late Mr.Pettit's actions leading up to the fatal, final moment.
Wonder might have a chance if he gets the "right" jury.
Here's an example of a very angry citizen:
8/9/2008 11:10 AM
While some cops are indeed as they were intended to be, the police force in general has evolved into a suspicious, intrusive, and abusive "gang" of condescending a-holes... Hence, the increasing violence toward them... It's been a while now that they have forgone treating their "subjects" with dignity, repect, and consideration... This has, in turn, created something beyond resentment, but closer to ill will... So, when you read the cop haters on here, realize that the cops have put much effort into creating that sentiment...
As far as the old man, some of you have said that Pettite's gun hadn't come out, so Wonder was out of bounds pulling his... Well, I wasn't there but Wonder's a 65 year old, very sick man... He probably doesn't have a leg to stand on in the case of a physical confrontation... Furthermore, any healthy middle aged man could probably go so far as to kill or maim him with as little as 1-2 well placed blows... Conclusion: Blast the man chasing you down with the threat of violent confrontation... Because, there is no other reason for following a man, exiting your vehicle, and approaching him if it's not to cause either a violent confrontation or the other to back down, effectively humiliating him through the threat of violent confrontation... Either way, Pettite still gets shot in my book... Why follow an elderly man to futher a confrontation...? That's despicable... Not the shooting of one who would do so... That it happened is tragic, yes... But, this isn't a perfect world... People have been killing each other since the dawn of time, and we probably always will... The point is avoiding becoming the mess, even if that entails making the mess... Survival, it's something we are all born with.
Posted by: SCC
They're running about 10 to 1 in favor of Mr.Wonder, primarily based on the late Mr.Pettit's actions leading up to the fatal, final moment.
Wonder might have a chance if he gets the "right" jury.
Here's an example of a very angry citizen:
8/9/2008 11:10 AM
While some cops are indeed as they were intended to be, the police force in general has evolved into a suspicious, intrusive, and abusive "gang" of condescending a-holes... Hence, the increasing violence toward them... It's been a while now that they have forgone treating their "subjects" with dignity, repect, and consideration... This has, in turn, created something beyond resentment, but closer to ill will... So, when you read the cop haters on here, realize that the cops have put much effort into creating that sentiment...
As far as the old man, some of you have said that Pettite's gun hadn't come out, so Wonder was out of bounds pulling his... Well, I wasn't there but Wonder's a 65 year old, very sick man... He probably doesn't have a leg to stand on in the case of a physical confrontation... Furthermore, any healthy middle aged man could probably go so far as to kill or maim him with as little as 1-2 well placed blows... Conclusion: Blast the man chasing you down with the threat of violent confrontation... Because, there is no other reason for following a man, exiting your vehicle, and approaching him if it's not to cause either a violent confrontation or the other to back down, effectively humiliating him through the threat of violent confrontation... Either way, Pettite still gets shot in my book... Why follow an elderly man to futher a confrontation...? That's despicable... Not the shooting of one who would do so... That it happened is tragic, yes... But, this isn't a perfect world... People have been killing each other since the dawn of time, and we probably always will... The point is avoiding becoming the mess, even if that entails making the mess... Survival, it's something we are all born with.
Posted by: SCC
rainbowbob
Member
I think the last time I flipped the bird at another driver was 30+ years ago. I was a young cab driver and stopped at a light. The guy behind me had his brights on. He jumped out of his car with a large knife at his side and came up to my window. I made some lame excuse that I was simply "waving" at him to turn down the brights. And I learned something.
Shortly after that I took a defensive driving course as a new UPS driver. They stress the concept of using a friendly wave and a big smile as the most effective way of defusing potential road rage incidents. This works for driver safety as well as better PR for the company. I've used that technique ever since and it is amazing how effective it is. I can think of NO driving incident - not even deliberate vehicular assault - that would warrant any behavior other than looking for the quickest possible escape.
Shortly after that I took a defensive driving course as a new UPS driver. They stress the concept of using a friendly wave and a big smile as the most effective way of defusing potential road rage incidents. This works for driver safety as well as better PR for the company. I've used that technique ever since and it is amazing how effective it is. I can think of NO driving incident - not even deliberate vehicular assault - that would warrant any behavior other than looking for the quickest possible escape.
VARifleman
Member
Look at his picture, he certainly wasn't a decrepit 52 year old, but was in good health. Wonder was not in good health, and as stated in the article Wonder tried to deescalate the situation by turning into the Post Office, and Pettit turned around to follow him. Pettit then becomes the aggressor and Wonder is cleared of previous escalations. Pettit is much more fit and stronger, and could have turned when the gun was drawn, or could have walked away saying he was going to get a gun and shoot wonder. Wonder defended himself against a vicious attack by a federal LEO who had a chip on his shoulder and is being hung out to dry for defending himself. Who's to say that he didn't rent the car and dye his hair after reports came back that it was a fed? That's a reasonable course of action for someone that is in his situation considering the actions of the feds in the past.
And if you think he couldn't be considered imposing to a 65 year old who's health is waning...from the cop's own daughter:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-flbagent0809pnaug09,0,5115158.story
Found an actual picture of him. #20 from: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-0805pineshooting.pg,0,1294625.photogallery
Pretty big guy...
Old Dog
Member
Did I miss something in any of the news reports? Where was it reported that Wonder was the victim of a "vicious attack?" All verbal argument, the deceased returning to his vehicle ...
Seems quite a few here are looking to argue that Wonder was justified in killing the man.
Posts such as don't do anything but stir the pot:
Guess that justifies the use of deadly force on another human being over a verbal confrontation between two older men ...
None of you were present, so all this rampant speculation solves nothing.
Is this really what you want to believe? That what Wonder did was reasonable?
Defensory said:
I didn't say that I believed it...only that it was possible the shooter in this case was reasonable in his own belief that he was facing the threat of imminent deadly force or the possibility of grievous injury.
Others who have posted have collectively made the case for this possibility.
I didn't say that I believed it...only that it was possible the shooter in this case was reasonable in his own belief that he was facing the threat of imminent deadly force or the possibility of grievous injury.
Others who have posted have collectively made the case for this possibility.
Orthonym
Member
Wow, where do I start?
Well, first, when I was a Boy Scout our troop used to go camping in an area near Davie.
Second, I describe myself on my Blogger profile as "a grumpy old bachelor."
Third, I don't have a carry permit and generally don't keep a piece with me when driving, though you betcha I keep one by the bedside.
Fourth, I seem to have turned into a scaredy-cat in my old age; I let road traffic situations slide.
Fifth, this is yet more evidence that LEOs are now a privileged class of nobility, whose lives and deaths are more important than ours.
Well, first, when I was a Boy Scout our troop used to go camping in an area near Davie.
Second, I describe myself on my Blogger profile as "a grumpy old bachelor."
Third, I don't have a carry permit and generally don't keep a piece with me when driving, though you betcha I keep one by the bedside.
Fourth, I seem to have turned into a scaredy-cat in my old age; I let road traffic situations slide.
Fifth, this is yet more evidence that LEOs are now a privileged class of nobility, whose lives and deaths are more important than ours.
Solo Flyer
member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2008
- Messages
- 581
Old Dog,that wasn't my post,it was quoting the post of a Herald reader who seems to typify the mood of the article's respondents.
It's certainly not my view of LE, or this particular case in general.
Now it also turns out that Wonder himself was an ex-cop:
Greg Sorrells, 60, of Lake City, said he has been friends with Wonder for 35 years.
"He's a low-key, quiet guy," Sorrells said. "I've never known him to jump out at anybody or attack anybody."
He said Wonder once worked as a police officer on the FEC railroad before he started trucking. Sorrells couldn't believe his friend would get involved in a road rage incident, much less a shooting.
"I think he probably panicked, because he's never been in that situation," Sorrells said. "He would be the last one I would see in it."
Lots of irony in this sad story.
Orthonym
Member
P.s.
My FL driver's licence says "safe driver" on it.
My FL driver's licence says "safe driver" on it.
Orthonym
Member
Wow, Solo, our posts crossed in the ether. Yup, mutual combat.
One could wish that we could still do that in a formal manner, as in " [slap!] Sir, you have insulted me! I live at such and such an address, and will wait there for your next friend to visit me there, if you have a friend!"
Hey, at least the bystanders are safer if the mutual combat is formally arranged!
One could wish that we could still do that in a formal manner, as in " [slap!] Sir, you have insulted me! I live at such and such an address, and will wait there for your next friend to visit me there, if you have a friend!"
Hey, at least the bystanders are safer if the mutual combat is formally arranged!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked