African-Americans Involvement in the Shooting Sports...

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Ng Vi

Though I suppose a guy in my unit I took to the range recently is black, I guess, I didn't realize it for the longest time but I suppose it makes sense. I thought he was jewish or something.
'I suppose' one might have to 'guess' concerning someone else's blackness; but i am confused about his 'jewish or something'. catholic or........something. protestant or........something. Something as in exactly what? racism can be subtle or perhaps this is a Maine colloquialism and i am misunderstanding it.
 
Indeed, If a guy is selling a real Nazi era luger and he throwing in a real Nazi flag, it does not bother me any more then someone selling a Nippon Empire flag. There is a place for historical stuff, just like say, stalin era russian stuff. However the KKK and the new production Nazi sellers make me sick.

True, very true. I have heard many white supremacists and wannabes infesting gun shows and claim to be selling "historical artifacts". LOL, but hey, there is a very big difference between orginal Mauser rifles, helmets, bayonets, ammo cans, and posters that say "white power", KKK, or spew hatred against blacks or Jews. Yeah, historical artifacts LMFAO!
 
I can honestly say I've never seen a black person at the range I frequent. I also have never seen a black person in any of the gun shops I frequent, at least not at the same time I was there. And I have been aware of that fact, being black myself (well, mixed, just like the OP actually IIRC). I received most of my exposure to firearms from the Marines, and definitely not my family. I know that everyone on my dad's side (black, from New Orleans 9th ward) was raised to say away from "guns and drugs" and make something of themselves, so they could get out of the 9th ward. I see that as being a major factor why there aren't more minorities in the shooting sports. My relatives aren't anti's deep down inside. It's just that in many black communities "guns" is a synonym for "gangs", "crime", etc. It actually really reminds me of the fact that, in the Marines, "gun" is a big no-no. It's a service rifle, crew-served weapon, pistol, etc. but definitely not a "gun". "We're not back on the block, we don't shoot guns here," one of my marksmanship coaches would always say when I was at Parris Island. There's just something about the word "gun" that has been so vilified by the anti's that the word has almost separated itself from the object.
 
I have seen a few black people at the range. One I believe was father and son, didn't look like they had much experience shooting and looked out of place, but hey they were shooters.

The other man had a BFR in 45-70. The blast was tremendous. Right as I went over to see what it was he shot his last rounds.
 
However the KKK and the new production Nazi sellers make me sick.
Yeah, the last gun show I went to (late 1990s) had a table with Nazi flags. Made in China.

The problem with racism in the shooting community isn't the overt kind; it's the subtle kind. It comes from the guy who says he's "not comfortable" shooting next to those other guys.

When pressed for a reason, he can't come up with one. He doesn't like them because they're black/asian/latino, and he's too craven to say so. This is the kind of guy who, when he's with his friends, says things like, "I'm not racist, but..."

As I mentioned, it's hard for minorities to break with institutionalized taboos and get into the sport. It's worse when they show up for meets or shoots and get shunned for being different. If I felt everyone staring at me the whole time, I'd feel weird about it, too.

I've noticed it among people from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Everyone thinks if you've got dark skin, dark hair and "an accent," you must be a Muslim (and therefore, bent on killing all infidels). I've heard from Georgians, Persians, Italians, Indians and Greeks about this, and it makes them not want to shoot.

That's a shame, because folks from repressive societies often take to shooting with great enthusiasm if they have a little guidance and encouragement.
 
When pressed for a reason, he can't come up with one. He doesn't like them because they're black/asian/latino, and he's too craven to say so. This is the kind of guy who, when he's with his friends, says things like, "I'm not racist, but..."

Not so sure i agree with this. A lot of people will say the, "Im not racist" line as an intro to people around them because they are afraid of being called that. And that is only a result from being raised in a generation that is incredibly quick to call someone a bigot. Or in other words, our society today has so much politcal correctness pounded into it, that as soon as anyone proclaims their distaste of someone of a different race, someone else doesn't give a second thought to give that person the title of a, "racist."

I could easily say, "Im not racist, but i just don't like that group of said asians/blacks/latinos. They're really loud and they're interrupting my focus on shooting."

Now does that make me racist?
 
I haven't seen many in my area, but my dad has a friend that is black and he carries for SD. I have seen a few in Phoenix but unfortunately the range is in a bad area and most of the shooters were dressed like gangsters (there was a few whites and mexicans dressed like that there also) kinda made me wander what they were target practicing for or if they just enjoy having their pants ride halfway down their a** at all times??????
 
'I suppose' one might have to 'guess' concerning someone else's blackness; but i am confused about his 'jewish or something'. catholic or........something. protestant or........something. Something as in exactly what? racism can be subtle or perhaps this is a Maine colloquialism and i am misunderstanding it.

Well I don't know if this will come out the way I mean it to, but I was mostly just going by his name. He is very pale, like I get when I'm away from the sun too long, and it wasn't something I ever put any thought into until he surprised me when telling a story about using a clearing barrel in Kuwait for the M-9 he was carrying. Since he has smallish hands he was telling me how he had to contort his grip of the pistol to release the mag and then lock the slide back and being from wisconsin, he was the only black guy in his unit so they were needling him a bit because he looked like he was playing around holding it sideways. He wasn't, it was just a coincidence. Also our NCOIC chronically mispronounces his name which already sounds german or jewish to a similiar but even more german/jewish name.

I don't know, he has been pretty much the only other non-NCO in our unit for the longest time, we have both been in the Maine guard for about the same amount of time, I just never thought about it.

How I worded it earlier was probably mostly because of carelessness and relative apathy as far as ethnic distinctions go, to me, having a spanish/argentinian father I never really knew and growing up in Maine an overwhelmingly white state ethnic distinctions strike me as more of a curiousity than anything else.
 
I would say that one reason why guns arent big in the black community is because of the make-up of said community in terms of statistics in the areas regarding crime, drugs, and poverty. Not to say that black people don't own guns, but that they do not shoot them often, or express enthusiasm in them as a hobby. That could be maybe related to the 'lower class' statistic/perception/stereotype.

But, I do see all sorts of people go into my local shop, but I live in a very diverse area. I'll see people of all ages and types, from college kids like me, to the competitors, to the casual family guys who just make sure they can still shoot a bad guy, to the gangstas who need to be punched in the neck, to the normal person, of all color and gender and background.
 
I don't know about the "shooting sports" but I quite often see African-Americans at the shooting range. I also see Asians, Europeans, South Amercans, Native Americans and occassiononaly just Americans
.

I think that's the problem. What are "just Americans" as opposed to the others listed.

The gun doesn't care what your ethnicity is and neither do most gun owners

No the gun doesn't care but lets not kid one another here or anywhere else. All walks have their intolerants, ignorants and racists. Perhaps no more with the gun crowd than most other groups however I've left more than one shooting gathering due to the political and racist bashing. I think younger shooters are generally more tolerant. There's a friend who used to frequent here and other boards who is Afro American and a practicing atty. He continues to shoot but it can be a struggle at times.

CRITGIT
 
Well, I think levels of involvement vary from place to place. In Delaware, the people I see in gunstores and the range the most often are white guys that drive pickups, but the second most common are middle- to upper-middle-class African Americans.

As for shooting sports, which for the sake of discussion I'll use in the sense of games (such as trap, skeet, blah blah), it's almost exclusively pickup-truck white people, which I think has to do with what it takes to get into games vs. into paper-punching: a person can figure out paper-punching for themselves, and is mure likely lured in by practicality that comes along with the fun of it. It seems like that for black shooters, the practical merits of shooting sports are a bigger (though not necessarily biggest) attraction of shooting activities; for hardcore white shooters, despite all our talk about practical this-and-that, it seems that the shooting itself is what is central, with the practical stuff being a justification rather than a motivation. Furthermore, with games like skeet and trap, a person arguably needs both a certain knack for that kind of shooting and lessons right from the start; they are way more likely to get the latter if they already have a family-member or acquiantance who plays that game--I've seen people try to jump into a game of trap or skeet just for the sake of general shotgun proficiency, and it's not pretty. On this subject, a person doesn't need to have the hyper-competence that something like skeet or silhouette shooting fosters, to defend themselves perfectly effectively or even to hunt with great success--in these sorts of games, being really good is just an end unto itself. Anyway, as time goes by, and black and white subcultures intermingle more and more, the shooting culture of country white folks (the only people still doing shooting sports, since they died out among the upper-class along with steeplechase and foxhunts) cross-pollinates into black culture.

Another factor at work might be the relatively uncompetitive nature of shooting sports. Watching the people in my dorm play videogames together, I noticed that black players gravitated to the very top of the skill ranks; with time, it became clear that this was because their enjoyment came out of the competitive aspect of the game, whereas the other players appeared to play merely for mindless relaxation, deeper escape into the games' plots, the social interactions that happened around the game consoles, or the affirmation of their own nerdiness. (Essentially all involved, just like essentially all at the school, were huge nerds regardless of background.)

While I think this same competitive mode of consumption (with the same cultural lineage, to boot) is also present to an unusually high degree in the white culture from which hardcore shooters come from, I think another central part shooting culture is a certain recognition of and revelry in the absurdity of what is being done. Is this now how we appreciate bull-riding? My former nextdoor neighbor's friend owns two MiG-21s and two MiG-23s, which he picked up for $100,000 each; the awesome over-the-topness of simply owning such jets, let alone breaking the sound barrier in them, comes from an enjoyment that has the consumer say, "I can't freakin' believe I'm doing this," and then laughing (cackling?) at the hilarity of the action's fundamental absurdity. In the same way we get so much amusement out of fooling around with fireworks (if not worse), we get a kick out of watching Bob Munden shoot two balloons with a speed that would be parody if it weren't real, or owning a Lahti 20mm, or shooting skeet so much that we endeavor to score perfect rounds wrong-handed. (I've known at least one person who has successfully done that latter.) When a person holds the record for the most RBIs, or field scoring, or passing yards, it's just plain impressive; when a person has the distinction of jumping the Snake River on a dirt-bike, it's still impressive, but in a different way.
 
Essentially all involved, just like essentially all at the school, were huge nerds regardless of background.
Huh? Nerd? ME?

...ah...who am I kidding? I enjoyed learning Latin :)

It's worth mentioning that the people who really do frighten me at the range are the 22-year-old suburban white "gangster" wannabes. They seem to be the most likely to violate the basic safety rules and imitate whatever movie/videogame is big right now.
 
I go to a pretty good outdoor range and it's got a varied membership. I've seen black, white, asian, men, women, sometimes kids with a parent or grandparent. I do notice that the "minority" shooters, if that word really applies any more, tend to be younger and more focused on target shooting and self defense while the "old white guys" tend to be more focused on hunting and other sport shooting. I also notice that anyone who shows up and isn't a safety hazard is either left to their own devices or helped copiously if they say they need it. I'm sure it's been said, but the shooting community is probably the most colorblind group of people around. Of course we have a large rural population, so it's more accepted in general to be a shooter than it might be if this were downtown New York.

Ditto Tom Servo's last paragraph. Piercings and tattoos don't bother me. Piercing, tattoos and waving a gun around bother me. Then again, a little old lady waving a gun around would bother me.
 
African-American?

Last time I checked, most of them were born here. That would make them American.

You don't see me running around claiming I'm Welsh-German-American do ya?
 
You don't see me running around claiming I'm Welsh-German-American do ya?
I don't see you at all.

That having been said, I don't like the term "African-American" for two reasons, one of them precisely the opposite of the one you're trying to express.

1. It was a direct result of a slow news-week for Jesse Jackson one year, and nothing more. "Black" works just fine for me.

2. "African-American" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. If they were to immigrate to the United States, Nelson Mandela, Olusegun Obasanjo and F. W. de Klerk would all be "African-Americans". The ONLY White people I see calling themselves "European-Americans" are mentally handicapped neo-Nazis. I don't generally consider them fodder for emulation.
 
That having been said, I don't like the term "African-American" for two reasons, one of them precisely the opposite of the one you're trying to express.

I know quite a few black people classified as "African-Americans" that aren't from Africa.

I also know quite a few white people from South Africa and they aren't classified as "African-American".

We really need to stop that circle of stupidity.
 
African-American?

Last time I checked, most of them were born here. That would make them American.

Just wanted to thank you for bogging this thread down with a discussion of proper nomenclature. :rolleyes:

Seriously, guys, when you make hay out of the PC-ness of the nomenclature issue, you're just dragging the discussion along even further. It's a complaint that is as nit-picky as the PC stuff itself, so people get the impression that your motives aren't practical, but rather ideological. (I'm not saying that's the right impression, but it's the logical one.)

In reality, the only people who are going to insist on using "African-American" instead of "black" are self-righteous neo-hippies; these people can't be persuaded by rational argument (just try debating gun-control with them), and no one takes them seriously anyway.
 
I took 4 black guys from my office shooting about two months ago. They thoroughly enjoyed it. One of the gentlemen has been out with me a few times and really enjoys rifles.

He came to me asking about rifles and was very interested in buying one. He found a savage 10fp with the heavy barrel in .308 hardly used for 450. He called me and asked if he should buy it. I said "If you don't, I am, tomorrow"
We just put a bushnell 3200 elite 5-15x40 and are going to take it out soon.
 
He came to me asking about rifles and was very interested in buying one. He found a savage 10fp with the heavy barrel in .308 hardly used for 450. He called me and asked if he should buy it. I said "If you don't, I am, tomorrow"
We just put a bushnell 3200 elite 5-15x40 and are going to take it out soon.
I've got a 10FP in .308 and a 112BVSS in .30-06 (very hard to find). Both of them are now in the laminated varmint type stocks that the 112 came in, which Savage will sell you separately. They're not terribly expensive and are MUCH nicer than the crappy black plastic stock that most 10FPs and 110FPs come in.

I've got Bausch & Lomb Elite 6-24s on both of my guns, and have found them to be superbly accurate at 600 yards with my target handloads.
 
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