The Lonely Sheepdog

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A sheepdog is there to protect the whole herd from wolves. His JOB is to keep them safe.
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Agreed.

My only job is to keep myself and my loved ones safe.
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And they are your "flock." You're a sheepdog with a small herd, as most of us are...but a sheepdog, nontheless. Your duty to your family...your "job" if you prefer...is to see to their welfare and keep them safe, even at the cost of your own life.

So, you would do sudden violence on behalf of your family. Excellent! Welcome to the brotherhood.

Policemen aren't sheepdogs by definition, though some are by nature. Their duty is to enforce the law and maintain public order...but they have no duty to protect anyone. Most will, of course...given the opportunity...but they only rarely have that.

Nor is the soldier, in the strictest sense. He will run headlong into battle with orders from on high in order to protect the country and the people who live in it...but he normally has to wait for orders, willing though he may be.

The sheepdog is independent. He will wait for no orders, nor will he be restrained when his hackles are up. Some limit the response to their immediate pack, while others will extend their services...which occasionally lands them in trouble...but those will not stand idly by while a wolf attacks and devours a weak or helpless sheep. This, regardless of who feeds him.
 
The Killology commentary was thoughtful. The sheepdog does everything to keep the sheep safe, the sheep may not like it. I sure hate speeding tickets or getting pulled over for any reasons. but the is generally there is a good reason.
There is nothing worse than a sheepdog done bad, a man abusing women is an example. Or, a wolf in sheepdog's clothing is a real scary thought, ie a bad cop
 
rather it's about the fact that the shotgunner is always accompanied by something known to attract the wolf
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And what of the coaches that didn't carry strongboxes, and only transported passengers? They too attacted highwaymen...and they had a guard riding shotgun, just like the others.

The people who blamed the strongbox for their peril are typical in the "There is no real danger" because they don't want to believe that there is any...so they look for things to blame for their discomfort rather than admit to themselves that the man with the shotgun really is a good idea.
 
Therefore, I, and others in this conversation are not sheepdogs.
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Speak for yourself. For some, there isn't a choice in the matter. Or, in the words of our favorite swabbie:

"I yam what I yam."

If the wolf goes after another sheep, not in my control, then that sheep should be protecting itself or have it's own sheepdog.
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So...you're saying that if you witnessed a young girl being abducted in a parking lot by a pair of unsavory characters, you'd just stand there...pistol on your belt...and write down the license number and be a good witness... (?)

Interesting.


Police officers and the Military are the sheepdogs.
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And that is another point that I have to disagree with...at least in part. Some become sheepdogs by choice. Others are sheepdogs by nature, and they will be sheepdogs with or without a uniform or job description. These are the people who see a group of thugs harassing an old man, and intervene...without a moment's hesitation. These are the true sheepdogs. They're born to it.

A good many of them do wind up in the military or with police agencies, thank God...but being a sheepdog isn't a prerequisite for either job.
 
So...you're saying that if you witnessed a young girl being abducted in a parking lot by a pair of unsavory characters, you'd just stand there...pistol on your belt...and write down the license number and be a good witness... (?)
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Ok, I can prop up a strawman too.... The young girl was just caught in a police sting by the two undercover police officers. She was just seen dealing black tar heroin to school age kids next door. She is also from a well known cannibal clan of hillbillies.

Now, unbeknown to me, the rest of the police are coming around the corner with the van to take her away and go after the rest of the nefarious clan. But, I, whip out my pistol and my new Batman Decoder ring and I draw down on the two police officers.

Well now, from behind me, the officers friends just witnessed me drawing on their comrades.... I wonder what they will do? Ventilate me like swiss cheese would be my guess....

In any situation... you don't know what you don't know.

In your situation, I probably would get involved. I can come up with dozens of situations where I would and dozens that I would not. Does not make me a sheepdog that protects the entire herd. It makes me someone who will fight if needed, be a good witness when needed and hope I am right 100% of the time. It does not make me Batman, a Sheepdog or even the Green Hornet.

If you want to go with the label Sheepdog, great, but you might as well call yourself Batman then. Same thing.... The protector of the herd... or Gotham City.
 
Ok, I can prop up a strawman too
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It wasn't a strawman at all...so I'll rephrase it into a straightforward question.

Would you intervene if you witnessed such an event...or would you stand there...remain uninvolved...and be thankful that it's somebody else's daughter?

If you would offer help...you're a sheepdog.

I'm not bustin' your...ummm...chops. Just tryin' to figure out which category you fit into.

If you want to go with the label Sheepdog, great, but you might as well call yourself Batman then. Same thing.... The protector of the herd... or Gotham City.
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Oh, please. Let's not let this spiral downward into a cutesy attempt at ridicule and veiled insults in order to support our postion.

So...The question stands. Would you save the fair damsel, or would you let the cretins have her?
 
Your Strawman was to set up a scenario that was easy to knock down on your argument as it was easier to do that than to refute the actual argument. I responded with my own Strawman waiting for you to knock it down. I have now equated thinking that you are indeed a Sheepdog to the very similar notion that you also consider yourself Batman as the two roles are very similar.

As I said before, I can devise millions of scenarios where I would likely be a "sheepdog" and I can also devise millions of scenarios where being a "sheepdog" or Batman would not only be the wrong thing to do, but could conceivably get you killed for being wrong.

So, since my definition of a sheepdog is one who protects the herd just as Batman protects Gotham City, the point is valid. Batman=sheepdog.

Just as I am not Batman, I am also not a Sheepdog....

Whether I am a sheepdog for my family, friends etc, is a different scenario, but in no way am I society's sheepdog


And in the reversal... Would you shoot the undercover cops and let the cannibal heroin dealer get away while the officer's friends ventilate you or would you let them do their business?
 
And in the reversal... Would you shoot the undercover cops and let the cannibal heroin dealer get away while the officer's friends ventilate you or would you let them do their business?
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Nobody said that you have to shoot anybody! (Talk about a strawman.)
You don't have to shoot in order to intervene. You only have to shoot if your intervention causes you to come under an attack...which you could...but that's not part of the question. Never was. You made an assumption that we should respond with guns a-blazin'.

C'mon, man! Just answer the question. Would you help the girl or not?

It's real simple. :)
 
And what of the coaches that didn't carry strongboxes, and only transported passengers? They too attacted highwaymen...and they had a guard riding shotgun, just like the others.

The people who blamed the strongbox for their peril are typical in the "There is no real danger" because they don't want to believe that there is any...so they look for things to blame for their discomfort rather than admit to themselves that the man with the shotgun really is a good idea.
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Oh, I agree with you. But that's not what Earp was talking about. If it was, he would not have said, "without him and his pestilential (strong) box, their lives would be 90 percent safer...and they know it."

Let me ask you this:

You are given the choice of stagecoaches to ride through dangerous territory. Both have guards. One has a box that is known to be full of valuables, the other does not.

Are you telling me that you'd choose the one that is known to be carrying valuables and honestly consider it equally safe?

Earp isn't talking about fear of the sheepdog simply because he's a sheepdog. Not given that he's added the bit about the strongbox. No, Earp is talking about fearing that which necessitates the sheepdog's presence. The shotgunner has that fear cascade onto him, but it's not because of anything inherent in the shotgunner.

I grew up in an area where tornados were relatively common. When the sky turns purple in the middle of a thunderstorm, I'm going down to the basement. That's got nothing to do with a fear of the color purple, but rather the knowledge that it means increased immediate risk of a tornado.

I understand the similarities, but it's not quite the same. When you're in a neighborhood with bars on the windows, are you more on your guard? I would think so. Does that mean you're afraid of the bars? Of course not. But you're concerned about the increased threat level that they represent. Similarly, the presence of a shotgunner on a stagecoach meant you were in for a riskier drive than normal. It's not that people were afraid of the shotgunner, rather, they were concerned about the increased risk that necessitated him.
 
ok, Ill bite..

Would you draw down on the two officers?

Or, we could come up with thousands of scenarios and debate each one. Or we could debate the topic of whether we really are Sheepdogs or just think we are.
 
Exactly. All this thread tells me is that chest thumping from the anonymous safety of the Internet is alive and well on the High Road. :D

~G. Fink
 
357 Wheelgun is exactly right. Earp is saying the passengers fear the "sheepdog" because of his bandit-attracting strongbox. He gives no other reason and any other interpretation of this
On the stagecoach, he is the necessary evil. Passengers and driver alike regard him with aversion, without him and his pestilential (strong) box, their lives would be 90 percent safer...and they know it.
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is unsupportable.
In fact, nothing in Earp's quote indicates that the "sheepdog" is there to protect passengers or drivers at all. Earp's statement supports nothing but that the "sheepdog" is there to protect the strongbox.
In the second paragraph, we learn why the badmen hate him: he's guarding something they want_the strongbox_ and he has a very effective weapon.
Nice colorful quote from a colorful man, but it has jack to do with CCW.
I agree, BTW, that the whole "sheepdog" analogy has long been nothing but a way for ccw holders to stroke our own egos.
 
Wheelgun...I understand what Earp meant. I had rather hoped to point out that the sheep fear the sheepdog because he represents something that they can never be.

Anyway...back to the point/counterpoint with Dravur. It's time to come clean, I guess. Sorry, Drav. I truly didn't mean to put ya on the spot...but there's method to my madness.

Read on:

You won't answer the question because you can't. Now, pay attention. I'm goin' somewhere with this, and it's not where you think. You sorta took the thread on a drift, and since you brought it up...we may as well address it. It's worthwhile.

You can't say that you would intervene, because you'd have to back up on your hard stance...and you think I'll use it to prove that you're a sheepdog...but I won't do that becasue you're not. You had it right earlier. You're a sheep with a gun. No sin in that.

Or, if you say that you wouldn't intervene, that I'll offer it as proof that you're a coward...but I won't do that either. I don't know you. I can't make that call.

You're actually pretty normal. Most people wouldn't intervene. They may say that they would, and they may even believe it...but until they're faced with it...they simply don't know what they'd do. That's the real and honest answer, by the way. Unless and until one actually faces it...the correct response is: "I don't know what I'd do."

You may think that you wouldn't...and then turn into a raging tiger when the flag flies. You may state flatly that you would...and fold up like an accordian at the moment of truth.

Most people wouldn't get involved because they're afraid. Afraid of being hurt. Afraid of the legal repercussions should they be forced to shoot should their action result in them being attacked. Afraid of losing all that they own. Hell...afraid of what the neighbors would think. Pick one.

Note that afraid doesn't equate to spineless coward. A little fear is a good thing. Keeps us healthy and sane.

The wolf and the sheepdog are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and they actually make up a very small segment of our population. The largest percentage of the people are sheep. They follow the rules and they observe protocol. They go about their business and avoid trouble rather than run toward it. The born sheepdog will run toward it if and when he hears a piteous cry for help...every time. It's in him in the same way that it's in the wolf to seek easy prey. The two don't just look alike...they are alike. They're just in direct opposition to one another. Mirror images. Each one understanding the other. The sheep understands neither one.

The sheepdog recognizes the wolf and watches for him to make his move. The wolf recognizes the sheepdog and keeps his distance...most of the time. Once in a while, a stupid wolf will choose the wrong victim, or will fail to notice that a sheepdog is watching him as he sizes up a weak one...and he pays the price.

So...the attempt to determine what we would or wouldn't do is probably best made in advance. Have it all sorted out ahead of time. Once it starts...there won't be time for reflection and soul-searching.

By the way...I'm a sheepdog. That "strawman" scenario that I outlined was real. It happened about 25 years ago near Rural hall, NC. I intervened. It was a little unnerving, but everything went well and nobody got shot...though for a few seconds, I wasn't so sure. The wolves were smart enough to recognize that I had an ace up my sleeve...or at least they suspected it strongly. Lucky them. Lucky me. Lucky her.

Would I do it again?

I don't know. Maybe. Probably.
 
That was your shining moment, then, and bully for you for handling it without bloodshed. I still don't buy what you're trying to sell in this thread. It all starts from a false dichotomy and deteriorates from there.
 
Can I Be A Coyote?

I personally despise the sheepdog anaolgy. I do not carry a gun for the protection of the people around me, my "herd" goes armed too. Now I realize that arguments could be made that my intervention on any level makes me a "sheep dog" but I refuse the title. There was an article(oped) today in the Spings Gazette about how C.U. needs CCW on campus ( it does) and how by allowing it the board of regents would get a campus full of plain clothes volunteer security guards. I cringed when I read it, the last thing we need is for CHP holders to think that the card imputes some type of police powers. If we make the analogy at violent crime how far do we take it? Would you "intervene" if someone W/out a handicaped sticker parked in a handicaped spot? Are we the new "Guardian Angles"? Who BTW have pretty much left Co Springs because they were universally despised. There is ( or was they may have disbanded) a group of citizens here in the Springs called the "C.B. Citizen's Patrol" they all wore black BDUs and OC'd and drove around south Co Springs all night on "the look out" for crime. They actually spent most of the evening patroling the South Gate IHOP. You say "sheep dog" that's where my mind goes.

BTW generally when a sheep dog meets a coyote ( or a wolf for that matter) the sheep dog doesn't fare too well
 
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the last thing we need is for CHP holders to think that the card imputes some type of police powers
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I absolutely agree...but why does it always come down to guns? Why is it that it's assumed that intervention in an attack automatically means reaching for a gun? The sheepdog...or whatever description you wish to use...will render aid, whether armed or not. I've seen it.

It's not about guns and it's not about being a self-appointed protector of the weak. The question isn't about whether or not we are on the prowl for dastardly villians. The question is simply:

Will you stand by and watch while someone takes a beat-down through no fault of his own...or will you stand up and say: "HOLD ON! THAT IS ENOUGH!"

Police powers aren't required. Neither is a gun...though it may come in handy.
 
Its a neccesary dichotomy, sheep vs. sheepdog, Civilians vs. Police, etc.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

A balance with checks and balances is good.
 
Again...

You set up the strawman that in a very specific situation you should do X. You have a foregone conclusion, yet, when I bring it full circle and show that every scenario can be turned into a situation where you do not know the facts and that can get you and other people killed. Do you see the problem with the strawman?

The real point of the thread is whether CCW holders or others are "sheepdogs". This is a term alot of CCW holders think fits them and that is dangerous. You are not a sheepdog anymore than I am. You may think you are and walk around thumping your chest and imagining scenarios where your superhuman powers can be displayed, but that is not how the real world works. Truth be told, Sheepdogs only occur in comic books, and various works of fiction. There is something bad when a person can say with certainty how they would react to a situation given in a few sentences.

I turned your situation on it's ear and yet you persist in playing it.... It isn't a real life scenario. I have no idea how I would react based on a couple sentences. I have no idea what the actual event would be until it happens. So, the scenario thing is quite lame. But if you want to make up scenarios, I am quite up to the task and we can debate them till we are old and Grey. Maybe on Tuesday, I would intervene and just to be contrary, on Wednesday, I wouldn't. See? it's easy when it's not real life.

Let me ask you this.... How is thinking of yourself as a sheepdog any different than the Mall Ninja protecting his little slice of mallness? Same thing really... He thinks of himself as the sheepdog protecting all of the little mall rats and he can puff out his chest and brag about how he can take multiple hits to the back trauma plate as he loads his wheelbarrow...

So, explain to me how the sheepdog mentality is any different except for the smugness as you conceal your weapons while the Mall Ninja proudly displays his rack of throwing stars.
 
I apologize in advance for venting, but this:

So, explain to me how the sheepdog mentality is any different except for the smugness as you conceal your weapons while the Mall Ninja proudly displays his rack of throwing stars.
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got me just a bit steamed.

You know, fellas and ladies, here's what it boils down to.

In order to have a safe society we have to assume the responsibility for the safety of those around us. We have to be willing to stand up when needed and necessary.

If you won't stand up for others, than you should NEVER expect anyone to stand up for you. And, they probably won't. Karma is a b***h.

As for the comment above, let me tell you something, bucko. I have stood in the breach, and stood up for others at risk levels varying from non-existent to mortal danger.

Does that mean that I am fearless or invulnerable? Quite a few of the times I did stand up for others--both as a cop and not as a cop--I did so while almost shaking with fear, because I knew that I could get hurt or killed. But the alternative was to walk away from a person who needed help desperately--and I wasn't about to do it.

You won't help your fellow man in his or her hour of need? Then you're a rank coward, and I don't care how you pose or posture on line. No amount of stated prose or meaningless sophorisms will change the fact that, while you talk smack on line, you are a bright yellow COWARD, and I want no truck with you.

If you can walk on while someone else is being hurt then you are a waste of air. Some animals won't leave another ANIMAL alone, in mortal peril!

And please, don't color the air with meaningless qualifications. You ARE your brother's keeper. Here's a question--how would you feel if you (God forbid) received news that a loved one of yours had been attacked--and that there was a CPL/CCW there who did NOTHING?

I'm off the soapbox, but here it is again, reduced to its least common denominator--if you won't help another human being in their hour of greatest need, you aren't worth day-old spit.
 
Okay, we've got a lot of words being passed around as to whether the sheepdog-sheep-wolf analogy is accurate.
It is.
Humans are remarkable creatures because they fill the role of many species.
Sheep are sheep.
Sheepdogs are sheepdogs.
Wolves are wolves.
There is NO changing that. People have tried, and they've been injured in some way, usually as a result of that.
People are different than other animals.
For example, there's the existence of a "calling".
People have specialties.
Some have the calling to become doctors.
Some have the calling to become workmen.
Etc, etc.
Some have the calling to be sheepdogs.
I can't imagine the whole world has that calling, as that would shift the dynamics of the world to a totally different bent.
And of course, psychopaths don't fit in as sheepdogs, and they clearly aren't the same as the average person.
Thus, the sheepdog-sheep-wolf analogy fits.
The only thing I'd say is that there are probably more roles.
Coyote is probably a good one.
Sort of the "sheep" of the psychopath world. A follower, an underling, but every bit as vicious.
 
I had a feeling this wasn't gonna end well.

Call me a rank yellow coward but if it's avoidable I'm not getting in it.

I don't have the facts, I don't have the immunity and unless happens right in front of me I probably won't have the time.

The very last thing we need is for CHP holders to get a reputation for, or the self image of, a bunch of vigilantes.

I have witnessed one crime ( that I wasn't participating in) in my life, and all I saw was a guy(the thief) run by me. If I intervene where do I draw the line? what if I see some one dealing drugs? Prostitution? What about a gang war? surely I should jump in on that right?

I'm not a sheepdog I'll be a coyote thanks.
 
By the way, Treo, I wasn't referencing your "coyote".
My comments about the coyote weren't directed at you, in otherwords.
But, I'd choose another descriptor for yourself. People don't like coyotes much.
Mongoose, perhaps?
:D
 
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