Clergy: What & How do you carry

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Quoheleth

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As I get closer to getting my CCL (take the class in either Sept. or Oct., depending on when it's offered & scheduling), I’m wrestling with what to carry and where to carry it on Sunday mornings.

I’ve been thinking that the kel-tek .32 or .380 or Ruger LCP would be my choice. They are small & flat, disappear into the front pocket of a pair of slacks (my usual Sunday morning attire, outside of the service) and relatively inexpensive. From comments I’ve read here, most seem to be able to shoot them reasonably well (6”) out to about 20 feet or so.

But this morning I realized that if a BG entered through our doors at the rear of the sanctuary, and I were at the front of the chancel (altar area), I would be more like 20 YARDS+ away. The very characteristics that make the KT or LCP an excellent pocket auto (and close-range weapon) could make it difficult to use at that distance should, God forbid, I need it. I’ve held both KTs and LCPs: are these weapons capable of accurately engaging man-sized targets at that distance?

So, that’s got me wondering if I should pursue something a bit bigger with better sighting equipment – Bersa .380 concealed carry, PT111, XD9c, M&P9c all come to mind, along with a j-frame Smith or Taurus. While these provide better sights and better grip, they become conspicuous for pocket carry w/out a coat or something worn over the top (I see the similar thread here about PF9 vs j-frame). During the worship service I wear full vestments – alb (full-length robe) gathered at the waist with a cincture (rope). A larger weapon in the pocket wouldn't be a problem then; the robe covers the bulging pockets. But between services and after the late service, I wear only slacks & shirt – rarely a suitcoat – so bulging pockets would be a quick giveaway.

I could carry in the pocket during the service and then transition to IWB during Bible class and after-church meetings, but I would prefer to not have to move the weapon around, even in the privacy of my office.

That leaves ankle carry. I saw an episode of downrange TV where Todd Jarrett was demonstrating how weapons in different positions could be brought into action. The ankle was no where as fast as untucked-IWB, but it also provides the benefit of dropping into a crouching position, making a smaller target.

Honestly I’ll probably have to begin my carry process with an IWB weapon – I don’t have funds to purchase a new carry weapon AND my license. I have a full-size MP9, 3” SP101, and 1911 in my safe; I would probably use the SP101 to start, tucked IWB, and hope that should something happen I could get to it fast enough. I just couldn't see toting that SP101 in an ankle holster...

I’m sorry this is long; I wanted to explain my thoughts and why I am thinking what I am thinking. If I am wrong and KTs and LCPs can be used to engage targets at 20+ yards, the rest of this is moot. If, however, their diminutive size, sights, and grips make such shooting difficult then I need to be thinking of other options.

Thanks,
Q
 
I’ve been thinking that the kel-tek .32 or .380 or Ruger LCP would be my choice. They are small & flat, disappear into the front pocket of a pair of slacks (my usual Sunday morning attire, outside of the service) and relatively inexpensive. From comments I’ve read here, most seem to be able to shoot them reasonably well (6”) out to about 20 feet or so.

But this morning I realized that if a BG entered through our doors at the rear of the sanctuary, and I were at the front of the chancel (altar area), I would be more like 20 YARDS+ away. The very characteristics that make the KT or LCP an excellent pocket auto (and close-range weapon) could make it difficult to use at that distance should, God forbid, I need it. I’ve held both KTs and LCPs: are these weapons capable of accurately engaging man-sized targets at that distance?

Actually, the question is, are you capable, under stress, of shooting someone when your entire congregation is between you and the target?

I would VERY strongly suggest that if you are worried about security at your church, that you talk to some of the folks in the church who do carry and develop a plan to deal with such an event. YOU are in the absolutely worst place in the building to do anything at all.

Carry where you want; but let other people be the first intervention in a crisis. You cannot do it safely, not from the sanctuary area.

Springmom
 
Good points; and yes, we are discussing it in various groups. A member is an HPD officer (20-year veteran) and he's guiding the process with us.

Don't misunderstand me...my job is to be pastor, not security. I know that, and I have to trust that the others who are part of our contingency plans are on the ball.

But my family is also sitting there in the pews...

Q
 
It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?

I'm not arguing with your choice to carry or exercise your rights, but would your parish understand and except their religious leader shooting someone?
 
I think it's great that your talking security because a shepard must defend his flock. I must also agree with springmom that your in the worst position to be effective in most siutations and you need a plan with other members taking up the slack.
 
I lead the worship and singing portion of our Sundat services before the Pastor coes up to preach, so I'm in, physically at least, the same position as you.

A lot depends on how "huggy" your church is. I can get away with (and do) carrying a 5" 1911 with a couple reloads because we're a bunch of handshakers. My last church, however, was all huggers. I couldn't have hidden my wifes' .380 on my waist.

Carry what you feel comfortable with. Approaching others about CCW in church can be touchy if they'd rather you not know.

I'm also the rather un-official security guy at church, mainly because I'm the only one who has a clue. The Pastor asked me to write a security plan and I wrote it just general enough that it can be adapted to nearly any building. If you'd like, PM me your e-mail and I'll attach a copy back to you.
 
Not a double post.

This is a response to a different comment in the thread.
Quote:
It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?

I'm not arguing with your choice to carry or exercise your rights, but would your parish understand and except their religious leader shooting someone?


There's nothing at all contradictory about it. Most religions teach peace through education and conversion, not ignoring evil and letting yourself be walked all over. Groups like that have a habit of going extinct. Personally, I'd rather have a Pastor or religious leader protect me than be too heavenly to be of any earthly good. I can't and won't cite examples for two reasons. First, this is Olegs' private area and he allows us in under certain rules and religious quarreling is one of them. Secondly, I've no idea what faith the O.P. is and it really doesn't matter in the context.
 
OK, here's how I do it.

Much depends on the style of dress. While some churches have become much more casual, that works against you when it comes to what can be carried. Business casual extremely limits the choices of carry to small pocket or ankle guns, which when you're looking at 25 yard engagement ranges can be pretty marginal unless you are VERY well practiced. You could go all Rick Warren with an untucked Hawaiian shirt, but to me that's far too casual for preaching (just my preference)

Sunday mornings, I wear a jacket all the time; either a full up suit or a sport coat and slacks. I carry OWB, concealed by the jacket, usually a 5" 1911 for a CZ P-01. I'll have a pocket gun as well (usually a S&W 642). I buy my suit jackets and sport coats a size or two large for this purpose- I don't have any problems with printing or the gun becoming visible (I go for the holster at about a 4 o' clock position). I keep that gun in a bag as I go into church and then put it back right as I am about to leave (usually not wearing the coat then).

Standing at the pulpit, I have by far the best field of view of the sanctuary as well as the best firing position. If somebody comes in the doors, I see them first (usually before they come in due to the windows). With the pulpit (we have an older large style one, the new thin or acrylic pulpits won't work for this) I have some extra concealment- it would only count as "cover" with extremely low powered weapons. But it gives me that extra half second to get to the gun before it becomes obvious.

Yes, it is better to have others in the church who can handle this (if you have a sound booth in the back, that would be ideal), but it is not always possible.
 
"It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?"

Are you trying to imply that all religious people shouldn't take any measures to defend themselves or their families?

If the lord wants to have a discussion with a BG prior to sending him to burn in hell:fire:, he just might send him to see the good pastor. The pastor can punch his ticket to meet his maker. The lord works in mysterious ways. :D
 
Quoheleth,

I am 100% behind you, I'm glad to see one more person who defines their decision to carry by the likelihood of them being attacked, rather than the likelihood of them going crazy and shooting someone in "a place of peace" (apparently if you shoot someone elsewhere it's better).

I put a lot of rounds through my new LCP to see exactly how comfortable I would be in using it. I view that gun, and guns like it, as being extremely concealable secondary weapons most of the time, and primary weapons when my usual rig won't fly. In that capacity, I cannot imagine having a need for it beyond maybe 7 yards.

Based on my experience with the LCP so far I have no doubt whatsoever that I can shoot minute of man at 7 yards. Actually, I can do considerably better than that now that I've gotten more used to the trigger pull, but statistically if I need to use the LCP it will be at 2 yards, so I'm more than all set.
 
I recently completed my CCW. My class had the usual wide variety of students, and the oldest ( a fellow alumni who graduated just a few short years ahead of me ) was the designated "Church Security Deacon" from his congregation.

Our area had recently gone through a church shooting, it's caused a lot of thinking that we aren't so protected here down in the Ozark shires. That incident was basically a personal dispute brought to their church. I've seen issues like that before: women who insist on worshipping being chased down by possessive others, infidelities pleaded after the sermon, etc.

The local impression is to have qualified door greeters and ushers who can be the first line of defense in a situation - especially during service when the hallways get quiet and nobody seems to be out and aware. I would be more comfortable with an usher helping to guide latecomers than a pastor or songleader making a belated stand in the sanctuary.

Be careful how you ask your congregation to assist in this, you might get a much larger response than you counted on!
 
Now, I'm not a preacher, nor even religious in any way, but if I were, I'd have to think long and hard about pointing a gun towards my congregation..flock...whatever is called. Flip the view to that of someone sitting in the church, and all of a sudden the person at the altar whips out a pistol and points it at the crowd. The results could end up even worse. Not as likely, but something to consider.
The whole situation is tricky. Lots and lots of innocent bodies to get in the way. Good move to be thinking about it, though, certainly.
 
Agreed.

Quote:
The local impression is to have qualified door greeters and ushers who can be the first line of defense in a situation - especially during service when the hallways get quiet and nobody seems to be out and aware. I would be more comfortable with an usher helping to guide latecomers than a pastor or songleader making a belated stand in the sanctuary.

And I believe local sentiment to be correct. Part of my "master plan" (evil laugh) is ushers/greeters who are an early warning system of sorts. Add some sort of communication to this (cell phones would be best, IMO) and you've got something. There are some other issues I raise that would add to their effectiveness, but the basic issue is true. Better a confrontation of any sort in the lobby or foyer than in a crowded sanctuary.
 
I am a pastor. I carry a Kahr PM9 in a pocket holster all day, every day.

You need to make sure that someone else has your back, shooting across your congregation is a bad idea.

You also need to reconsider the idea of changing mode of carry between Sunday School and your worship service. This is a recipe for disaster. You need to settle on one mode of carry, and keep it holstered without having to worry about an ND while reholstering, etc.

You also need to examine your anthropology and your theology. Unless you have asked the hard questions related to self-defense, and have come to the conclusion that you can morally and righteously take a human life under certain circumstances (your personal "rules of engagement"), then you shouldn't carry. Note that this applies to everyone, and not just clergy persons.
 
pastor with a lcp

I'm in a similar situation as a pastor myself. Here's my thoughts: My pulpit is nearly centered between two main entrance doors behind the foyer area, everyone else back is to those doors, I'm the only one facing during service save for musician(s) when they're up there. We are fairly casual dress, and I don't sport the jacket all that often, which means I'm tucked button up and nice slacks. (Guys with robes have a benefit of sorts here except for quick access.) We also have a nice big wood pulpit that helps hide a lot.. but when you're not behind it and shaking peoples hands or if its a particularly huggy-place?

I have a nice IWB for a full size s&w but I just find it too hard to conceal for church when I'm greeting and moving around a lot. So I've taken to the Ruger LCP most of the time IWB or in a good very concealed pocket holster. I think those guns you asked about ARE capable of man-sized targets at the range in the right hands, the question is the user and their comfort level. I never expect to use mine at that kind of range though. As others said its just unlikely. Do some research on peoples scanned targets from those guns at those ranges. Groups won't be the same as target guns of course. I'm not particularly great with mine though. Its not always realistic to expect to get a good sight picture in such chaos, with any gun. I would hope to not engage at distances like what you're talking about. Myself, gotta be closer and certain. I'm not throwing caution to the wind but trying to protect and that means not causing more problems in the process. I'm don't see firing over or through frantic peoples bodies and heads. A few quickly thrown hymnals and Bibles to buy a second or two and a mad dash, evaluating and thinking all the while... and a controlled but clear directive to folks around.

I see you wear robes for part, but since you loose them between you need to work to the lower denominator. Nothing is easier to hide than the belly guns you talked about, but they are a compromise. I've decided conceal ability was a top concern so that's where I'm at. I agree, you don't want to be moving\changing weapons. Bad idea, you'd soon rightly hate it and it adds unnecessary risk certainly.

1911 Guy speaks wisely.
 
Again, to clarify:

I am not a police officer. My training at this point is minimal - I will have taken the class (of course) before carrying, and I have read and continue to read works such as Mas Ayoob's The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery. Additional classes are desirable, but that will have to be "as the budget allows."

I am not unstable, nor do I think a pistol makes me Superman. I do not plan to whip out a pistol anytime a stranger enters the sanctuary in the middle of a service, and PALE RIDER is not my favorite movie.

I am a pastor and not a security officer. I believe the worship service to be a reverent place of worship and the church building shouldn't be a place for physical violence. My job is to preach & teach. Neither the US Constitution nor my church constitution gives me the right or responsibility to be the body-guard for the entire church. I have to be a part of a comprehensive plan, not a one-stop-shop means of defending a congregation.

However, I understand - whether I like it or not - that the world is different than it was when my granddad was pastoring. The church is no longer sacrosanct and safe from violence. Should someone enter the sanctuary with the obvious intent to do harm (i.e. brandishing a firearm) to me, to my family, and my flock, the situation has definitely changed. Peace is the first choice; sometimes a second option is necessary.

Several posts have raised the question about how smart is it for me to potentially face an armed man with dozens of people nearby. True. I am not Mel Gibson or Danny Glover, and don't intend to attempt to be like them. Would I - theologically/anthropologically - could I shoot someone in self-defense? Yes if my/my family's life was in danger. With other innocent people nearby? I'm a good shot; confident of my ability AT THE RANGE; but I've never been in THAT situation. I won't be an arrogant mall ninja and say "of course." If threatened anywhere, with or without a weapon in my hand, I hope & pray that through common sense and study/training I would react appropriately - whataver that means for the situation. Could I lose my job if I had to shoot? Maybe...(pastors are held to a higher sense of accountability)...probably...I don't know. But I would rather be able to go home with my wife & kids on a Sunday night instead of having to go make funeral arrangements for them on Monday.

That's where I am...it's hard to put it all down in writing so that it makes sense. I hope I don't sound like either an arrogant know-it-all or a terribly confused gimme a gun and it'll all be OK kind of man. There is a real tension in anyone carrying a firearm for defense and even moreso in my profession. I'm wrestling with it in the Sunday morning context and I hope you can appreciate that.

I appreciate the conversation here. It's open & honest, giving ANYONE who thinks of carrying much to think about. I appreciate that I am being encouraged to consider strongly the implications of the act of carrying without either being flamed or being hoisted as a champion of CCW. Again, this is not something I am approaching lightly but very seriously, knowing the implications are far greater than an extra 20 ounces or so to carry.

Need to run...
Q
 
Interesting discussion. I have spent the past 31 years in the ministry, 23 of them as Senior Pastor of our present church. I also CCW. I usually wear suits or sport coat/slacks combinations and, for the most part, concealment of my S&W 9mm is not all that difficult. I am 5'10" and weigh about 180 lbs. I usually wear double-breasted suit coats which give me extra material for concealment. However, last evening, after our Wednesday evening service, one of our young gentlemen came up and gave me a big hug (he just turned 13 and is still all arms and legs). When he hugged me his left arm went around my OWB holster. It was obvious from the change in his expression that he knew immediately what it was he had accidently felt. However, he didn't bat an eye. He pretended nothing at all had happened, as did I, and he said good night, gathered up his little brother and big sister and walked out with his mother. It happens. The best reaction is no reaction.

As to the OP. If I am forced to do so I am prepared to defend myself, my family, and the family of God entrusted into my pastoral watch-care. I hate to think of the toll it would take on me, and my family, emotionally and spiritually to take the life of another human being, but I thought that very question over very carefully and prayerfully prior to applying for a carry permit. Then I signed the application. Lord willing I will never need it. But better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it.

(In the interests of full disclosure, I am a "tent maker." A pastor who also holds down a full time job. The carry permit is a requirement of my job, not just me exercising my 2nd amendment right, although I think that is a very good thing to do!)
 
20 yards is a long shot with anything that small, they just arent made for that.
and under stress it would be almost impossible to safely get off a shot in a crowd.

Is the pulpit a post stand type, or is it a box type where underneath you have storage ?
If its the box type is there room under it enough for a brief case or small soft sided attache case? If that was the case you could keep a full size in it and it would be readily handy. My pastor always carried a case with his books and sermon and placed it under the pulpit and arrianged his papers before service started. .

I agree that if yourself and a cpl of the congregation prepare a plan it would be much better. I wouldnt want the 2 who were also carrying to be sitting next to each other, one near the rear on one side and another mid ways up on the other side.

Hopefully that day will never come, but it doesnt hurt to be prepared.
 
Quoheleth,

Personally, I do not believe just a CCW class can truly be considered CCW training. If you are concerned enough to be thinking these things through so carefully (as you seem to be), please get some defensive handgun training from a well known instructor. I understand budgets, so perhaps you can consider a 2 year plan for training. In the Houston area, consider Brian Hoffner, or there are opportunities for training down by Victoria with John Farnam (usually in the fall or spring). With Hoffner, you can also get training a couple of hours at a time, or go in with a few friends and "share" a shorter session. This type of training will address some of your accuracy concerns, methods of carry, tactics, presentation, and so on.

You sound like a sheepdog, pastor. (That's a good thing :)) Hope you can get the training you need to proficiently address a situaltion we all hope will never materialize. Big crowds like a crowded church present a very difficult scenario.

Have you considered some open hand training, and looked into more intensive attention to verbal defense? Likely you already have a very firm foundation here due to your ministry. Check out Bill Kipp's "Missing Link" DVD, or some of the other self defense info on Michael Janich's media website staysafemedia.com . Lots of things you can do before worrying about keeping your congregation safe while responding w/ a handgun. Not always possible, but good tools to have in the box.

Some very good advice has been given in this thread. Thank you for posting.

Steve
 
I do a bit of preaching myself, from time to time. The pulpit definitely gives you the best view of your flock and any potential attackers, but not necessarily the most unobstructed field of fire. I'm thinking along the lines of working with a few of the CCWers in the congregation to ensure that the right folks sit in the right spots to be able to do the most good.

I'm also thinking about an innocuous-sounding Hebrew or Greek word that could be introduced into a sermon as a heads-up that something is amiss. Of course, that'd depend on my not having put the CCWers to sleep by that point in the message! ;)
 
Im a member at one of those "megachurches" in the Central Texas area, and I have heard from people in the know that our church has about 6-8 armed "ushers" spaced throughout the auditorium at any time. Many are off duty cops, military, or simply CHL holders that the pastor trusts. I always look for bulges under their coats now :)
 
Quoheleth,
No reason to explain yourself any further than you did in your first post. You made it clear you are only worried about your congregation and family. With the way things are in today's world those fears are justified and to ignore them would be foolish. I'm not sure what your beliefs are but I will say the Lord wasn't an advocate of being a victim.

There are several good "tuckable" IWB holsters available on the market that are affordable. Those holsters allow you to carry IWB but still tuck in your shirt. They do a very good job of concealing a handgun, even an M&P 9. I'm a big fan of DeSantis holsters because they make a quality product for a fair price. Take a look at their Tuck-This holster. It lists for $37 but I've seen them for $29.95 locally. Don Hume makes good holsters for a fair price too. If you don't like anything from DeSantis you might find something you like from Don Hume.

There are much nicer products on the market but they also come at a premium. From what you said you are looking for something that works but doesn't cost too much.
 
Direct response to initial post.

I have to apologize, I wandered a bit from the initial questions posed in the original post. My advice would be the following:

Carry the largest handgun you can comfortably and practically conceal. Everyones' situation is different, so I won't throw recommendations at you. Just hash out for yourself what the accaptable compromise is.

Now that you've gotten the initial training required by your state law, look for someone to train you in the specific skills you'll need for your situation. These would include developing a plan for managing the crowd in a state of confusion and panic, skills needed to determine shoot/no shoot situations and pushing your gunhandling skills and accuracy on a range and classroom setting so you know where the threshold of your personal abilities is. As an example, I'm extremely confident offhand at 25 yards, but cut that in half when the target is made of flesh and bone and moving.

You made mention that there are others who are spearheading the security plan and you are there for your family. Actually, this is a wise move. As Springmom said, you're in perhaps the worst place to engage a threat likely to enter the sanctuary at the point farthest from you. The members who are part of the armed group should be seated near the back on the outside of the pews, provided they're not too close to the wall to maneuver. A designated usher/greeter who may also be armed could easily be in place in the foyer/lobby during the service to tip the main body off if something comes up.

Aw, heck, I will toss in a recommendation. If you're looking at carrying IWB anyway, try the 1911 if you don't expect to have to tuck it under your shirt. They're thinner than a lot of other autos and a reload is also thin.
 
I have recosdered my ccw choice for sundays....I usually carry a642 in my pocket.But recent shootings in churches have made me step up to something bigger and w/ more rounds.I carry my S/W m and p compact now.Our sanctuary is pretty big,and I play in the band most sundays,so I am on the far end from the doors in the beginning of the service.I'm not cop or hero,but will stop someone who is trying to kill my "family".I haven't been going to the church for long,and the Pastor doesn't actually know that I carry,but plan on a discussion about it soon.for now,no news is good news.
 
I am friends with a Catholic priest who served as an officer in the Columbian army prior to Seminary, as a combat arms officer. He carries a Smith 36 or a Walther PPKS. I have watched him shoot and I would not want to be a BG in his line of sight. Keeps a pump 12 Ga. with tactical upgrades in the rectory.
 
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