Why leave a 6 shooter a 5 shot Revolver?

azhunter122,

If you haven't encountered it yet, the mnemonic for getting the single action hammer down on an empty chamber is:

Load one, skip one, load four.

After loading the fifth round, fully cock the revolver and the empty chamber should be in battery. You could drop the hammer but ease it down anyway.

Naturally, The Four Rules always apply.

so tell me again how it could possibly fire by dropping it on the hammer...

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In some pre-1945 S&W revolvers if the hammer spur was hit hard enough it might break the hammer stud (the pin the hammer revolves on), an in such an instance it might be possible for the firing pin to hit a primer if there was a cartridge in front of it. This might have happened in the famous case with the U.S. Navy during World War Two; when a Victory Model revolver was dropped from some considerable height onto a battleship's hardwood deck. Smith & Wesson never knew because the revolver wasn't returned to them.

However after a new (second) hammer block was introduced in 1945 this possibility was ended because the hammer was blocked just under the firing pin as well as at the bottom by the rebound slide. These two independent blocks in two different places proved to be more then enough. They still use both systems today, and there hasn't been any recorded instances that the company knows of where a S&W revolver discharged after being hit or dropped on the hammer spur.

Unfortunately there are some who remove the second hammer block to "inprove the trigger pull." This is not only untrue, but brainless! But if you buy a used gun check and be sure all of the safeties are present and working as they should.

thanks for the clarification, old fuff. though i didn't specify it, i was speaking of post-WWII revolvers even though i know lots of folks here on THR own older specimens. heck, i wish i was one of 'em...

I didn't mean to get in a dig...

The problem is mainly caused by folks that are carrying Smith & Wesson revolvers that have no idea how old they might be, or what kind of safety devices they might have, if any. They simply go on blind faith.

And Tex, older Smith & Wesson revolvers are not always expensive - unless you just have to have one in like-new condition.

heck, i wish i was one of 'em...

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Do you wish to own older specimens, or be one?

zip7 said:

I have both types of SA - an old blackhawk without the conversion, and an old single six that DOES have the transfer bar.

Even with the transfer bar safety, if you are going to carry it - like in the woods or whatever, if you load six it's more dangerous than loading five.

Here's why: Both guns need to be half cocked in order to load them. That means the hammer needs to be cocked and let down after loading. You have to pull the trigger to let the hammer down. So, if you load one, skip one, load 4, cock back and your thumb slips off the hammer, nothing happens. If you load 6 and do it, BANG.

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I don't know about single sixes but if it has a transfer bar safety, it should be safe. The way a transfer bar safety works is that the trigger must be pulled and held completely to the rear. You don't de-cock a revolver by pulling the trigger and holding it to the rear -- that raises the transfer bar into position and enables the firing pin to contact the primer. You firmly hold back the hammer, pull the trigger just enough to release the hammer, then let off the trigger and ease the hammer forward. In fact, you could even let the hammer fly forward at this point -- it simply cannot touch the firing pin unless the trigger is fully held to the rear when the hammer lands.

Again I don't have your gun but that is how it works in every gun I've ever seen that has a transfer bar.

Probably only an academic distinction but the single action army and functional replicas do have a "safety notch" that holds the hammer off a loaded round's primer.

It's just that nobody trusts it or recommends it be used as such but I believe folks would notice its absence as I believe it's one of the "four clicks" heard as a SAA's hammer is drawn back. It's generally considered fragile enough that ignoring the thing and lowering the hammer on an empty chamber is considered preferable.

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I'm new to SAA revolvers so I've read through (a couple of times) the Safety & Instruction manual that came with the two USFA Rodeo revolvers that I bought recently. Looking at the schematic, there are three notches on the base of the hammer that engage the trigger when the hammer is pulled back. First "click" is what USFA calls the 1st Position Safety Notch (but they recommend carrying the revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber). The second "click" is called the 2nd Position Loading Notch. The third "click" I have no idea about (does anyone?), but the fourth "click" is the what they call the 3rd Position Cock Notch. It seems that the hammer would have to be pulled back a little and the trigger pulled in order to drop the hammer from the 1st Position Safety Notch or the hammer would have to be hit hard enough to shear the notch off the base of the hammer. Both events may be unlikely and USFA's recommendation may be more about avoiding litigation but I for one will be following the load 1, skip 1, load 4 school of thought.

You guys are missing another reason for shooting five at a time... it takes off one row at a time from a box of ammo, whether commercial or homebrew! I know a fellow who loads only five per cylinder in his 7-shot 686+ for the same reason. Of course, I started loading five for a different reason.

Years ago, when I bought a fnew Ruger .454 Casull SRH, a recent entry then, I loaded only five... I was cheap! A box-o-twenty was $18 then - that was nearly a buck a round! Of course, check out SD .38 Special ammo today...

Everyone should know now how safe a post WWII S&W is with the hammer down by now. Carrying a DA revolver with the hammer charged may be 'safe' for drops, but pointless otherwise. Of course, my only carry options now, a 296 & 642, do make SA use a tad difficult.

Stainz

The 3rd click is the bolt being released by the hammer and popping up against the cylinder.

It seems that the hammer would have to be pulled back a little and the trigger pulled in order to drop the hammer from the 1st Position Safety Notch or the hammer would have to be hit hard enough to shear the notch off the base of the hammer. Both events may be unlikely and USFA's recommendation may be more about avoiding litigation but I for one will be following the load 1, skip 1, load 4 school of thought.

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If the hammer spur is struck while the trigger is in the (so called) safety notch, it is not unlikely that the notch will be chipped, but more so that the thin section of the trigger just below the notch will break off and thereafter the hammer will move forward. Also while it is unlikely, it is possible to lower the hammer had have the trigger come to rest on the forward lip of the notch, rather then in the notch, and a light push will drop the hammer.

Never trust that system to be safe. The folks at SASS knew exactly what the were doing when they made that "hammer down on empty chamber" rule, and it had little to do with lawyers, and everything to do with common sense safety.

I have to admit!

Until recently I would never have considered a round in the pipe in a semi-auto, let alone 5 rds in S&W 642.

After I purchased my Ruger LCP and read these forums I became convinced that it was safe to carry one in the pipe and fill the mag with 6.

Thanks to all that have responded to this thread, the 5th round will be placed in the cylinder and I will feel comfortable that it cannot accidently go off.

Hard to teach an old dog new tricks, hell I just found out that I really don't have to wait an hour to go into the water after eating!!!!!!

Never trust that system to be safe. The folks at SASS knew exactly what the were doing when they made that "hammer down on empty chamber" rule, and it had little to do with lawyers, and everything to do with common sense safety.

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Old Fuff, thanks for the 3rd "click" explanation. If the 1st Position Safety Notch is such a misnomer, is the "feature" still included on current SAA offerings for historical accuracy only? The other thing that comes to mind is that the only time it's safe to have all six chambers loaded in a SAA (Colt and clones) is with the barrel pointing down range while shooting at the range. I think it's fair to assume that revolvers weren't invented for target shooting (originally) so I wonder how many cowboys in the Ol' West only carried five and I'm also left wondering how many AD's occurred either with the hammer down on a loaded chamber or the hammer in the 1st position.

Probably only an academic distinction but the single action army and functional replicas do have a "safety notch" that holds the hammer off a loaded round's primer.

It's just that nobody trusts it or recommends it be used as such but I believe folks would notice its absence as I believe it's one of the "four clicks" heard as a SAA's hammer is drawn back. It's generally considered fragile enough that ignoring the thing and lowering the hammer on an empty chamber is considered preferable.

Certain Italian copies have enhanced the safety notch to one degree or another but the efforts have not been well regarded. They may or may not work but the "load 5" drill is easily remembered and more fool-proof.

If one is buying new and claims unfamiliarity with revolvers most dealers will warn loud and long against any of the models that require short loading. They really are in the minority and might well be nearly gone but for cowboy action shooting renewing the market for the breed.

Sometimes it seems to me that we go to such lengths to not mention the "safety notch" that the occasional newbie is actually puzzled when the hammer "hangs up" in that position. Should it happen, nothing is broken.

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totally agree. i have a bunch of SAA old ones. mostly black powder, 1847, 1851, 1860. Only one of them has safety notches on the back of the revolver. but it can still be un safe. When shooting bp. i load all the chambers. i just cap off 5 and take it to the forward bench when i am about to shoot i cap off the last cylinder. But what was mentioned the hammer can easily fall on a cap on the others. so unless your ready to shoot the gun you either keep one unloaded. OR keep them all loaded just 5 capped and one not. Now i also have some conversion cylinders for these. When shooting those i only shoot 5 and rest the hammer on the empty chamber. its way better to be safe than sorry when dealing with guns. As you can be sorry but cant take away what has been shot at.

I think it's fair to assume that revolvers weren't invented for target shooting (originally) so I wonder how many cowboys in the Ol' West only carried five and I'm also left wondering how many AD's occurred either with the hammer down on a loaded chamber or the hammer in the 1st position.

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One such victim(?) of an unexpected discharge was a young Wyatt Earp, when his revolver fell out of his holster during a poker game.

Newspaper reports of the incident claimed that the saloon/gambling hall cleared out in quick order, but that no one was killed or hurt.

In later life Wyatt prevailed in convincing his biographer, Stuart Lake, not bring this up in his forthcoming book.

I can't say how many suffered a similar fate, but anyone who has extensively worked on, or examined older Colt Single Actions will likely tell you that triggers with broken tips are not unusual.

good info. I need to get some of his books. Good to hear from you old fuf

scrat:

This is a good one, and not very expensive either...

Why the West Was Wild: A Contemporary Look at the Antics of Some Highly Publicized Kansas Cowtown Personalities by Nyle H. Miller and Joseph W. Snell


http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b...ield-keywords=why+the+west+was+wild&x=18&y=18

My dad used to load his colt police so if the trigger got pulled it would land on an empty chamber when my brother and I were kids. I guess he felt safer that way it one of us kids ever picked it up and pulled the trigger. We never messed with his guns without permission.