Unarmed defense against a handgun

A long long time ago I was in a martial arts class.
The usual procedure was to face off with someone, wait for the go, assume a position and say Hah!
Well, one time I was placed against a person 3 skill belts higher than I was. Feeling completely outclassed, I changed my plan. The go was given, and instead of saying Ha! and assuming a position, I said "EARRGHHH!!!!!" and just belted him one. The other two points in the match were simple because he was afraid of getting hit again.(This particular course didn't do much hitting. Light taps only.) Dude would cringe as soon as "go" was given.

Lessons learned:
Don't train anywhere you aren't going to get clobbered from time to time.
Violence supersedes skill set. (Mind set, training, equipment).
Hit the guy. It makes all the difference in the world.

So if I were in a similar situation I would hit [him]. With a rock or sharp end of a laptop, if it was all I had. A pencil or pen. Or like lawdog suggests, a lock on the end of a belt. Whatever. Just so long as I get mine in, I figure everything will work out.


Edit: Looks like Grammaw visited me and fixed my langage. Poor old dearie missed one so I came back and fixed it.
-Jdude

I think the trick is first to be lucky, second to remain aware and aggressive. If you have a gun on you and are not yet dead, you have a great chance.

They want something from you. If they are doing petty gun robberies, they are not a very smart person. Yes, they are dangerous, but if they look away from you and their finger is off the trigger, that buys you half a second plus.

If they are holding the gun away from their body I would attempt to get under or beside the line of fire and simultaneously go for the gun and kick groin or below (thigh/knee/shin).

I would like to do some training, but I think it's very important that you are as aware, or more aware, than the perpetrator. Not giving up hope is important...

If you are asked to raise your hands or start to do it out of instinct, the best time to attack is while your raising them because they are already expecting hand movement.

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Excellent advice. Another good way is to raise your hands and say "No, no, I don't want any trouble" IF possible...

Give the hijacker the keys to the car. Get the kids out and away. Make sure the hijacker has enough gas/gas money to leave the scene. Ask if there's anything else you can do for them . . .

This is why we have insurance.

If I'm the armed "bad guy" and have the drop on you -- which is presumed here -- you're going to get shot dead before you can close ground on me or reach into your pocket.

Anybody who thinks different has never been held at gunpoint.

The problem with most "gun disarms" is they focus only on the gun. If you have a man with a gun doing everything he can to kill you and you "disarm" him, you still have a man doing everything he can to kill you. The only thing that changed is he doesn't have a certain tool anymore. Well, you didn't need that tool to deprive him of it...why does he need it to beat you to death?

Now, consider a 100lb woman wrenching a gun away then trying to punch and knee with arm and leg strength alone like many, many techniques out there. Good luck (she'll need it). Most techniques (martial arts, sport fighting or "reality based") were developed by fit males and are well suited for them. You can tell by the method and selection of strikes. It favors the faster, bigger, stronger person.

The focus in any violent conflict should be to injure the other guy until he cannot function. That is the only thing that will make you safe and doesn't rely on them deciding to quit. If their body is broken, it doesn't matter what tool they have. If their mind (CNS) is shut down, it doesn't matter how big and strong they are.

It's not that the "techniques" are so bad, it's that the focus is (usually) all wrong. Your goal from the first movement you make to the last should be injuring them. If in the course of causing said injury you avoid the muzzle and wrench the gun free, great. If you don't, but still injure them, then it will be like the bouncer story who just busted the guy in the mouth knocking all his teeth out (injury).

So, what can a 100lb woman do? She can: crush a throat, gouge an eye out of the skull, rupture testicles, break an; ankle, knee, clavicle, rib, neck (especially via a stomp). She could knock them out be striking the side of the neck, break a jaw (at the hinge). None of these injuries can be reliably caused with limb strength alone, they all can be caused with 100lbs of mass applied to the right area with good penetration.

It doesn't matter what you do as long as it injures them. Focus on how to create debilitating injuries, not how to do "techniques". Look for the injury opportunities within the techniques and figure out how to maximize them.

Statistically, getting shot (once) won't kill you....getting shot multiple times and/or beaten to death will. As others mentioned, you may (expect to) get shot, keep going until they are disabled, don't focus on the weapon, eliminate the threat.

Be ultra-aggressive - assuming the distance is not far, come straight at them hard and immediately. A friend of mine implemented this and proceeded to beat the snot out of an aggressor with the butt end of their own revolver.

The agressor has a certain expectation that you'll be cowed initially by the sight of that firearm. If you react lightning-fast to the contrary, it creates a short mental hitch for them.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that even though they have a gun pointed at you, chances are they didn't initially want to shoot you.

strambo - good points.

While I'd live (hopefully) with knocking the gun away from both of us, my ideal hope would be to TAKE the gun from the attacker. If he's cowed by that and stops attacking, good for him. If he still presses the attack, on the other hand....

A version of the Krav Maga disarm that I've seen is that instead of wrenching the gun *away* from the attackers hand (maybe you cant get it away), you just smash it in the attackers face repeatedly, until they let go of it, then you have a gun to either keep smashing them with or shoot them.
This works even against stronger people, because there simply arent that much muscles to stop the elbow from bending inwards, and you will use your whole bodyweight to force the gun into their face..
But the key is surprise and aggression, just attack repeatedly and dont stop until you are sure you stopped the threat.

Now, consider a 100lb woman wrenching a gun away then trying to punch and knee with arm and leg strength alone like many, many techniques out there. Good luck (she'll need it). Most techniques (martial arts, sport fighting or "reality based") were developed by fit males and are well suited for them. You can tell by the method and selection of strikes. It favors the faster, bigger, stronger person.

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Well that brings to mind the cover of a Tae Kwon Do magazine I saw while I was in college in the late '70s. An attractive woman is on a tennis court when she's assaulted by some slimy looking character. She executes a roundhouse kick to the side of his head... while holding an ALUMINUM TENNIS RACKET in her hand. At least at that time, that was an accurate representation of the attitude of a lot of Tae Kwon Do (and probably other arts as well) practitioners.

I've experimented with various Shorinji Kempo based ways to get an attacker to shoot HIMSELF. I don't know how practical they'd be in a real situation, but they'd beat LETTING somebody shoot you without resistance every time.

For me, the martial arts are in large part a means by which I can buy time to get to my weapon... or my ATTACKER'S.

Wow- no one hs mentioned the one thing that this lady for sure had on her at the time of the attack- Keys!

My mother used to teach adult ed in a tough part of West Palm Beach- when the security gaurd walked her to the car each evening, he told her about placing the keys in between your fingers in a fist. if somene ever grabs you or gets too close- go for an eye or nose (up the nose). or some key rings themselves can be bulky enough to cause damage to attacker.

One I have though about cause I have them always around is a water bottle. most are partly filled- but for whatever reason people always try to avoid being sprayed n the face with stuff- even just water. IT could give you enough time to strike or run.

Strambo ~

Good post. Need to add one option that isn't often discussed: getting the gun away & just shooting the guy with it.

There are a lot of leverage-based techniques for twisting the gun away that do not require the extreme physicality that strike-based techniques do. But once the gun is in hand it's a whole different story -- and the targets you mentioned are all likely to be well defended.

But there are two things going for you in that situation:

1) If he wanted to outright kill you on the spot, you'd already be dead. The reason he's trying to get you to go somewhere with him is because he doesn't want to kill you right then & there if he doesn't have to. So if your response is quick and decisive enough, he may break off the attack rather than pursuing it further.

2) The reason he has a gun in hand in a situation like that is because he doesn't think he can make you do what he wants you to do without it. He has some doubts about his ability to handle you bare-handed. If you successfully get the gun away, you've just shown him that he did in fact need the gun to handle you. This should make whatever you do next more effective simply because you just scored a huge psychological victory.

But if you don't have the physical skills to reach and defeat the usually well-defended targets on his body, you do at least now have a deadly weapon in your hand. And you could simply use it.

Not the best if it turns out he's been bluffing with a BB gun, but for someone who's smaller, weaker, & doesn't have a whole lot of other tricks up her sleeve, it could be a viable plan. Certainly better than getting the gun away & then standing there going, "Now what?"

pax

Even in the most impermissive area a person would still be allowed a backpack, shoulder bag or purse.

With a little practice a bag can be whipped off the shoulder and be travelling at a high speed in arc where the hypothetical bad guy's head is.

Of course the person would have to follow up the attack to make sure the threat is ended.

Or maybe a retreat would be best. Hard to say.

The trade off is that by wearing the bag on only one shoulder makes it easier to be grabbed by a purse snatcher.

Just a quick note, but the idea of putting your keys between the fingers of your hand to use on someone is frankly a bit of a legend. Try it on a punching bag or a couch cushion before you think about using it for real. Your hand is a delicate instrument and I frankly doubt if you'll enjoy what it does to your hand any more than I do.

Boy... sounds like a very sticky situation. Im glad she and her kids made out ok. I think if an attacker is close enough (within arms reach) I would use my folding blade pocket knife and Jab/Grab/Stab aiming for the eyes or the throat. Otherwise, I might try to run (unless my kids were in the car).

It is hard to say though, because if the attacker has one in the chamber, ready to pop, I might not have enough time to get my knife out. I guess it all comes down to situational awareness, and seeing the attack as it unfolds... not being shocked by it when you are staring down the barrel of a gun.

Generally though, I believe that giving them a good fight is better than being submissive. Social perpetrators like easy victims, and as soon as they realize that you are not one, they will most likely take a hike.

hmmmm this strikes me as a very unwinable scenario. The lady in question was very lucky. I think my reaction would have simply been to look at the assaulter and say something like, " I'm not willing to give you the keys to a car with my grandkids in it. No."

Hopefully the perpertrators would be unaware of this if they just pulled up. Maybe they would be in a hurry and not want to get involved with kids, and a crusty disabled old man, and look elsewhere for a quicker 'fix'. Maybe not and I'd get shot. So be it. In the situation described I think my only recourse would be a simple, "No". I would have no other options available to me, and I would be unwilling to release my grandkids while I could still breathe.

There is a lot of good stuff in the previous comments and I agree with a lot of them. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:

• Be in reasonable physical condition.
  
  
  - Its easier to defeat an opponent if you have some strength and aerobic/anaerobic conditioning.​
• Have some unarmed combat training/practice
  
  
  - We are culturally trained from childhood not to hit other people. Training in a situation where you actually hit others and are hit in return can acclimate you to the idea of hitting another person. (This training can be done with safety equipment but should be full contact) You don't want to have to get over a cultural inhibition on hitting somebody while fighting for your life.​
• Use distraction techniques prior to attack.
  
  
  You should satisfy two conditions before you initiate your attack. First you must get close enough to your opponent to physically contact them and second you must cause enough distraction or doubt in their mind to allow you to initiate your attack without being shot. This can be accomplished several ways. As has been noted before, yelling, waving your arms, and acting the lunatic is one way. The other might be to just hand over whatever they are requesting and initiate the attack at point of contact...or drop the keys at your opponents feet and make them crouch and/or look down to retrieve them and attack!​
• FULLY COMMIT to the attack
  
  
  
  This must be treated as a life threatening situation. You must have the mindset that you will either prevail or die. There is no holding back. If you have initiate the attack you must use absolutely all the resources at your command. In other words you should be entirely willing to sustain serious injury to prevail. In almost all fights both participants will get hurt, sometimes the winner is the one willing to take more damage and keep fighting after the loser has decided the confrontation has cost too much damage or pain.​
• Attack until your opponent is no longer a threat
  
  
  This one can be surprisingly hard to figure out. Err on the side of caution and thump, smack, stomp, twist, bite, or gouge a bit more if unsure. ​
• Take it personal. In other words, get angry about what your opponent is doing to you and use that anger to fuel your attack
  
  
  I've been threatened a few times and have had knives drawn on me as well as a broken bottle. For whatever reason that sort of thing makes me intensely angry. I've found that anger to be very helpful in resolving those situations in my favor. Let the anger flow but channel the energy. It is surprising how much more power you will have at your disposal. Additionally understand that your opponent is out to hurt or kill you, use that realization to release your inhibitions to do the same to them. You didn't initiate the confrontation, any damage they sustain is a result of their decision to assault you.​
• Remember, getting shot by a handgun is not a death sentence, if it happens, keep fighting!
  
  
  If you have been a member of this forum long you have read many posts related to handgun "stopping power". The basic truth is that although handguns and bladed weapons are certainly dangerous and can be deadly, they are usually only deadly in the longer term. Handgun wound survival rates are commonly quoted in the 70-80% range, particularly if the victim is able to get to a trauma center within a half hour of the injury. (No, I don't have any hard stats on this. ) If you are shot, don't go by what you see in the movies and on TV and just fall down...keep fighting! If you look at confiscated weapons you often see .25s, .32s, .380s, etc. It's likely you will survive a gunshot would to the torso with one of these, but not if you give up the fight when shot. (No, I've not been shot before. )​
  
  
  Remember the immortal words of Monty Python's Black Knight, "'Tis but a scratch!"
  ​
  Of course not getting shot in the first place is the best plan and using the aforementioned Krav Maga techniques is a good approach. i.e.: get out of the line of fire while simultaneously grabbing the gun to take possession of it or make it non-operational by causing a mechanical malfunction. Just remember, if you do obtain the handgun, you should assume it has non-operational. If you are clear for any amount of time run the gun through a malfunction drill before attempting to deploy it against your opponent (At least rack the slide if it is a semi-auto). A little practice of these techniques using blue guns or their like is advisable.
  ​

One final piece of advise/opinion. If you want an idea of what to try with an opponent that is trying to hurt/kill you, look up the rules of MMA fighting. Particularly the list of things the fighters are not allowed to do. Here is an example:

"The list of illegal moves starts with head-butting, eye-gouging, hair-pulling, biting, fish-hooking, and attacking the groin. Strikes to the back of the head, spine and kidneys are all illegal, as are strikes to the trachea."

My favorite is this one: "No inserting fingers into any bodily orifices." I'll let your imagination work on the possible ramifications of that sentence. Mindset, training, aggression, conditioning and the will to survive can make all the difference in the world.

and the targets you mentioned are all likely to be well defended. -PAX

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I'll touch on this because it is a critical point. Those targets cannot possibly all be defended. That is exactly the point...no matter what position you or the opponent are in, there is always a weak part of their anatomy exposed. I listed targets from ankle to eye. Trying to protect all those simultaneously paints a picture in my head of a stupid slapstick scene in a bad comedy where a woman gets her clothes accidentally ripped off and she is trying to cover everything up with her hands front and back. It just doesn't work...and that's only 3 places.

If the upper torso/head is protected, the lower torso and limbs are exposed and vice versa. Don't pick a favorite target and hunt for it...injure the one you see exposed, then the next you see and the next...

Just take whatever they give you and throw all your bodyweight into it...it'll break. A story from one of my instructors: In training a jerk (large male) FBI agent didn't want to play along with his 115# female partner and give her reactions like he was getting injured. So, when she stepped in with all her weight (at slower training speed) to do a punch to the sternum he stood still. His sternum was split (then he moved!) and he was out on medical leave for 6 months. The human body cannot take 100+ lbs of force to many weak areas, things break.

What is lacking in most fighting styles is total commitment of bodyweight. This is because it is slower to strike and especially hard to get distance again...it doesn't work for sparring. In combat I don't want distance...I want to break them. To break them I need my bodyweight. To use my bodyweight, Sir Isaac Newton says I have to slam into them (i.e. get reaallly close).

Taking the gun and shooting them makes sense...provided you can do that while under the pressure of a full on attack as in they don't stop fighting and grap-hit you as you are trying to take the gun and shoot them. I'd rather injure them, injure them again, take the gun, then use it to shoot their buddy before he closes.

This lady did well to fight and survive, good on her. Training is just about increasing your efficiency at injuring people thus increasing your odds of survival. Nobody needs training to do violence in the 1st place...just smack someone's head with a rock.

One final piece of advise/opinion. If you want an idea of what to try with an opponent that is trying to hurt/kill you, look up the rules of MMA fighting. Particularly the list of things the fighters are not allowed to do. Here is an example:

"The list of illegal moves starts with head-butting, eye-gouging, hair-pulling, biting, fish-hooking, and attacking the groin. Strikes to the back of the head, spine and kidneys are all illegal, as are strikes to the trachea."

My favorite is this one: "No inserting fingers into any bodily orifices." I'll let your imagination work on the possible ramifications of that sentence. Mindset, training, aggression, conditioning and the will to survive can make all the difference in the world

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Or in the words of Pax..."fight like a cornered cat." That is to say, fight dirty and hard.

I'd like to add one small addendum, though. "Physical conditioning", as has often been pointed out on this forum, is a boon that not all of us have, can have, or will ever have. Some of us are just getting a bit far along for Krav Maga on the street. Some of us have disabilities, or illnesses, or are six months pregnant (YOU try doing a roundhouse kick with a 20 lb. bowling ball strapped to YOUR belly). Those problems make it even more important to have a repertoire of dirty maneuvers you're able and willing to do, and to practice them.

And all of us can have a confident attitude, can watch our surroundings, can do everything possible to avoid trouble. Moms with small children are extraordinarily vulnerable, and a mom here in Houston lost her life a couple of months ago in an uncannily similar situation. She fought hard, fought as well as she could, was stabbed in the chest and died shortly after staggering into a store for help. Her baby was already in the car seat; the assailant had a knife; she's dead. I'd like to hear from moms of small children how they safeguard themselves and their kids when they're out with their crews.

The lady in the story did get lucky.

Springmom

springmom,

You are absolutely correct about the physical conditioning part. Folks always bring up having limitations. Indeed nearly all of us have physical limitations of some sort and if we don't, we will. The point is to be as physically capable as you can be given your particular limitations. Survival of any kind always has many contributing factors. None of us can nor want to spend all of our time becoming fully prepared for any self defense/survival situation. However, small incremental gains in physical conditioning, training, awareness, mindset, and the tools we carry can make the difference if we ever do end up under attack.

Unfortunately, no matter how well prepared, trained, and conditioned you are, some times its just not going to be your day to survive. All you can do is improve your odds, you can't fix the game.

wow. kudos to that brave woman! she got lucky with a gutless attacker though. i don't have kids but if it was family member, i'd probably do the same thing as her. fight as best i can. for the most part though, this would be my tactical defense tool:



Bobby

The evening news report was a bit different than the papers that Jeff posted .

They said the mother verbally refused to give up the keys twice and then the female perp tried to take them out of her hand and at that point she started screaming her kids were in the minivan as she fought to hold on to the keys .

I'm guessing the female perp thought the whole thing would be a walk in the park , shove a gun in someones face and they would hand over the keys .

She didn't bargain for multiple kidnapping charges of children and having to perhaps shoot a mother just to "jack" a car .

Since the man never got out to help her I am assuming anything she did she alone would get all the credit when sitting in a court , and I think two charges of kidnapping minors and assaulting or killing their mother would earn her close to life in the slammer if not more .

In a situation like this about all a person could do is perhaps use whats inside of their vehicle as a weapon which could range from a gun to a laundry basket or even a tiretool .

A google video search on "Krav Maga Sherman Oaks" should turn up some good videos.

There are some really good points here.

I think that it goes back to mindset… it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. A smaller person can successfully defend themselves if they have the will to survive.

One does not need extensive unarmed combatives training to be able to defend themselves. Eyeballs, throat, and kneecaps are great targets and it is hard to “toughen” those targets up. We don’t teach groin shots simply because they don’t work all of the time. However, an effective eye gouge will work most of the time. When their eyeball is hanging out they will forget about the gun. If they cannot breathe they will forget about the gun. If they cannot walk, well, they cannot pursue you. With my 22+ years of martial arts training, these are things that I am going to use to save my life should the occasion arise. These are things that we teach our students to do because they are almost “guaranteed” to work on an attacker of any size and/or strength.

What is lacking in most fighting styles is total commitment of bodyweight.

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I could not agree more. A lot of strikes lack follow through and only focus on the “surface”. A 100lb woman can know a 200lb + man back on his rear if she does it correctly. I have seen this happen in our training. One can deliver a whole body punch with power and speed. We do it all of the time. However, it does take a lot of practice.

The size and strength of the opponent can make a difference. However, I think that a confident person of smaller size who demonstrates power and skill can possibly diffuse the situation through their confidence. One good blow from a woman who weighs 100 lbs or so can hurt enough to make an attacker think again. Keep in mind most attackers are not looking for a fight. Once they see you are willing to fight and that you are able to fight, they may very well flee. There are times to display your confidence early in the fight and there are times that you need to keep it a surprise until after you have done something to defend yourself. Let’s face it, the psychological factors in a fight are as important if not more important than the physical elements in a fight. Battles and Wars have been won based upon psychological factors alone.

Disarms are not as dangerous as being on the receiving end of the muzzle. I have seen some people teach disarms incorrectly. That is, moving the weapon then the target. You should move the target THEN the weapon in most cases. Focusing on taking the gun away could be a fatal mistake. It is important to keep in mind that you are fighting the person and not the weapon they are holding. A lot of people become weapon fixated instead of threat focused. More than likely the attacker has other tools available so you have to be aware of those as well. If you decide to execute a disarm, commit to it!!!

As far as disarms go, I am all for them if you are confident enough to do them, or it is a last ditch effort. That is, you know that you are going to die if you don’t do anything. The muzzle is the most dangerous part on the gun, and once you get past the muzzle you are relatively “safe” from being shot for a few seconds. This is when you “control” the gun arm and take an eyeball out or crush their throat getting them to forget about the gun and more about their own survival.

Truth of the matter is that you can do everything right in a fight and die and do everything wrong and live. In most situations training is probably going to be on your side because it provides you with more options than not having any training. A lot of people don’t do anything simply because they don’t know what to do. We find however, that mothers are more likely to put up a fight to protect their children whether or not they have any training. The natural instinct of a mother takes over and they become someone you probably don’t want to mess with.

One does not need extensive unarmed combatives training to be able to defend themselves. Eyeballs, throat, and kneecaps are great targets and it is hard to “toughen” those targets up. We don’t teach groin shots simply because they don’t work all of the time. However, an effective eye gouge will work most of the time. When their eyeball is hanging out they will forget about the gun. If they cannot breathe they will forget about the gun. If they cannot walk, well, they cannot pursue you. With my 22+ years of martial arts training, these are things that I am going to use to save my life should the occasion arise. These are things that we teach our students to do because they are almost “guaranteed” to work on an attacker of any size and/or strength.

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There are also less common target areas which an assailant may find misleading, such as the inside of the thigh. Hard kicks to the inside of the thigh, especially with street shoes can be debilitating. It's also deceptive, since an assailant is probably expecting a strike higher, to the groin.

There are others, probably a lot of them.