The bill for Heller: $3.5 million
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Henry Bowman
Senior Member
And they got a 3-7 year head start making that money. If they saved and conservatively invested money in the early years, they're ahead in the game.
romma
Member
In a case like Heller, the stakes are high, the bar is set higher, and if you lose the case, there goes your career potentially. Risk/Reward.
divemedic
Member
I called around last year looking for an accountant- nearly every one of them that I talked to charges $200 an hour. I used TurboTax. The attorney we used five years ago charged us $300 an hour. One court appearance alone cost me $750.
Before I embarked on my current career, I used to repair electronic equipment at the Orlando Airport location of a company that repaired ground support equipment. I was required to bill out at least 85% of my day. It was not too difficult, because we billed in 1/2 hour increments, and there was a 4 hour minimum for emergency service and a 2 hour minimum for normal service. Routine maintenance billed a minimm of one hour.
What did the company charge for my time? $45 an hour for routine, $90 an hour plus a $40 service fee for after hours and holiday calls. There were plenty of times that I came on a holiday in for a repair that took me 15 minutes to do. That means the service call cost $400 for my 15 minutes of work.
What did I make myself? $12 an hour. My skills at my trade were nowhere near what Gura's are at his own.
Before I embarked on my current career, I used to repair electronic equipment at the Orlando Airport location of a company that repaired ground support equipment. I was required to bill out at least 85% of my day. It was not too difficult, because we billed in 1/2 hour increments, and there was a 4 hour minimum for emergency service and a 2 hour minimum for normal service. Routine maintenance billed a minimm of one hour.
What did the company charge for my time? $45 an hour for routine, $90 an hour plus a $40 service fee for after hours and holiday calls. There were plenty of times that I came on a holiday in for a repair that took me 15 minutes to do. That means the service call cost $400 for my 15 minutes of work.
What did I make myself? $12 an hour. My skills at my trade were nowhere near what Gura's are at his own.
ctdonath
Member
People routinely pay $100/hr for auto repair, plus parts costs. ...and that's mundane maintenance of well-understood vehicles, not arguing obscure points of Constitutional law. Also, the mechanic actually doing the work usually sees little of that $100.
Pat McCoy
Member
In this discussion of costs, I think we are missiing an important point.
If this case is successful, the issue of firearms ownership being a "civil right" will be set firmly in cement.
Think what this means to those who would not allow legal CCW on their "private" premises. Once this is confirmed to be a "civil right" there will be more challenges to the "no Guns allowed" signs as an abrogation of "civol rights".
If this case is successful, the issue of firearms ownership being a "civil right" will be set firmly in cement.
Think what this means to those who would not allow legal CCW on their "private" premises. Once this is confirmed to be a "civil right" there will be more challenges to the "no Guns allowed" signs as an abrogation of "civol rights".
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
Amen, brother. - from a Magna Cum Laude 2008 Graduate of the University of Miami.
No you don't, see above. My friends who started construction and drilling businesses out of high school are doing much much better.
+1
The best engineers get Google, Microsoft and Cisco stock they are on a completely different pay scale then us mere mortals.
Getting an architecture degree is like taking a vow of poverty. People do it because they like it, not to make money. No problem with it, but you can't compare.
divemedic
Member
Remember, we are talking about an attorney who has accomplished what few others have done in the history of our nation.
Out of the millions of attorneys who have practiced, few ever argue in front of SCOTUS. Fewer still got to argue cases of this nature. He is at the top of his field.
Since when do we base salary on how much school you attended? I have an AS, and I make more than many engineers and architects. Supply and demand is the key. The supply for attorneys of Gura's caliber is very limited, so he can charge a premium for his services. What he does may look easy, but like most people who are good at what they do, he makes it look much easier than it is.
leadcounsel
member
"Pay for services" and "value" are all skewed in our world and in the USA.
For instance, teachers generally take a vow of poverty - yet we entrust them to instill education, values and be a constant role model and 'baby sitter' for our children for about 1/3rd of their lives from years 5-18+. Their average salary is somewhere in the $30,000-$50,000 range at the top of public schools.
Yet we don't bat an eye when we (through our contributions to sporting events, cable TV, buying sporting goods, jerseys, tax breaks for stadiums, etc.) pay 20 year old athletes $10,000,000 to throw a baseball, football or basketball and live like a king.
Heller's attorneys are at the top of the top of the top of the pyramid as likely some of the most important attorney's that have lived in my lifetime and possibly for decades longer. They have successfully cemented the 2nd Amendment as an individual right, and spent nearly a full 3 years doing just that! They're asking for about $1,000,000 per year over that timespan to cover their risk (of losing and not being paid) and their work. I think that's a BARGAIN!
For instance, teachers generally take a vow of poverty - yet we entrust them to instill education, values and be a constant role model and 'baby sitter' for our children for about 1/3rd of their lives from years 5-18+. Their average salary is somewhere in the $30,000-$50,000 range at the top of public schools.
Yet we don't bat an eye when we (through our contributions to sporting events, cable TV, buying sporting goods, jerseys, tax breaks for stadiums, etc.) pay 20 year old athletes $10,000,000 to throw a baseball, football or basketball and live like a king.
Heller's attorneys are at the top of the top of the top of the pyramid as likely some of the most important attorney's that have lived in my lifetime and possibly for decades longer. They have successfully cemented the 2nd Amendment as an individual right, and spent nearly a full 3 years doing just that! They're asking for about $1,000,000 per year over that timespan to cover their risk (of losing and not being paid) and their work. I think that's a BARGAIN!
scott22
Member
Gura is asking $1,850,354, Neily $900,446.20 and Levy $663,498.40... and thats for almost 5 years. When you divide that up, it realllllly is not that much for any attorney standing before SCOTUS.
ETA - leadcounsel, I was not calling you out. Just using your quote to put it into an individual perspective for each attorney.
KBintheSLC
Member
Does it get any more "unjust" than this? And "legal justification" could be the fact that DC denied Heller his constitutional rights. Seems pretty simple to me.
As for the money, if they lose the award, we could easily compensate them by each donating $0.05. If all 80 million gun owners donated the $0.05 to the Heller cause, he would be covered to $4,000,000. I don't know about you, but I would gladly pay a nickel for this outcome.
Brett Bellmore
Member
The problem with family law has never been the $150-200/hr. It's always been the hour the family lawyer claims to take for each page of boilerplate he or she photocopies. Mechanics might make comparable sums including materials, but their billing practices are hugely more honest, due to enforcement of honest billing.
That said, I really doubt Gura photocopied much boilerplate in this case, and I'd be surprised if he extensively inflated his billable hours, either. The man deserves the money.
First, regarding the pot of gold, the rainbow and the big pile of money that Larry McLawyer swims in as a consequence of his job in the law...listen to what the following posters have said:
leadcounsel
Henry Bowman
Bartholomew Roberts
For the VAST majority of lawyers, the huge piles of money are not there. Truth be told, the market (especially for rookies) is awful. I am a 2008 grad, awaiting bar exam results, and I routinely find myself looking at jobs with starting salaries no greater than $50K per year. Most are pegged somewhere between $30-40K. This is after I have invested 3+ years in law school and a significant chunk of money. Further, these jobs are getting flooded with resumes. It is a little rough on the ego to know that you are competing with 100 candidates for 2 jobs...and the job pays $38K.
Second, I'm happy to see the members here supporting the notion that six figure legal payouts (to lawyers anyway) are justifiable. However, I wonder if we'd have the same hand-clapping and glasses clinking if the demand for attorney's fees came after a civil rights case for police brutality. I know we don't have support for payouts when it comes to other kinds of plaintiff's cases here at THR. (apples to oranges I know...but the principles are the same)
Third, I hope they get paid every red cent.
leadcounsel
Henry Bowman
Bartholomew Roberts
For the VAST majority of lawyers, the huge piles of money are not there. Truth be told, the market (especially for rookies) is awful. I am a 2008 grad, awaiting bar exam results, and I routinely find myself looking at jobs with starting salaries no greater than $50K per year. Most are pegged somewhere between $30-40K. This is after I have invested 3+ years in law school and a significant chunk of money. Further, these jobs are getting flooded with resumes. It is a little rough on the ego to know that you are competing with 100 candidates for 2 jobs...and the job pays $38K.
Second, I'm happy to see the members here supporting the notion that six figure legal payouts (to lawyers anyway) are justifiable. However, I wonder if we'd have the same hand-clapping and glasses clinking if the demand for attorney's fees came after a civil rights case for police brutality. I know we don't have support for payouts when it comes to other kinds of plaintiff's cases here at THR. (apples to oranges I know...but the principles are the same)
Third, I hope they get paid every red cent.
divemedic
Member
I think so. I have a lot more respect for attorneys who fight civil rights and criminal law cases than I do personal injury, contracts, and family law. Many attorneys are just chasing the dollar, but it always seemed to me that the civil rights and criminal law attorneys were for the most part chasing justice.
I could be wrong, but that is what it seems like to me.
I could be wrong, but that is what it seems like to me.
leadcounsel
member
Anyone have a good address to send money to Heller?
Halo
Member
Of course this was worth every penny. I have no problem with good attorneys being well paid for their work. What I do have a problem with is the fact that injustices can go unchallenged only because the victim(s) lack the financial means to rectify them. A less grandiose case probably wouldn't attract high caliber attorneys willing to take it on a pro bono basis. I don't fault the legal profession for that, but chalk it up as one of the crappier examples of the whole "life isn't fair" maxim.
As do I, which is why I am pleased that a mechanism exists to encourage civil rights litigation on behalf of clients who cannot afford to pay by the hour. It is also why I get angry that people attack the very same kind of mechanism (contingency fees) in tort litigation.
azhunter122
Member
I hope the get the money! Also what was the actual cost to the NRA?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Actually, one of the NRAs lead attorneys (Stephen Halbrook) consulted on the initial case (note the bill to him in the main story)
The NRA did initially fear that the case might create bad precedent when it was first brought in 2003 (with two different Justices sitting than the Court that ultimately heard the case). Given that even then it was a 5-4 case, it doesn't look like the NRAs fears were totally out-of-line.
While the NRA did try to block the case at the lower level, they did support it fully once they realized it was going to the Supreme Court with the current slate of Justices. Even Robert Levy commented that they were an immense help for the Supreme Court case when he spoke to us last fall.
Megistopoda
Member
Wall Street Journal quotes DC AG Nickles:
D.C. AG Peter Nickles told the Legal Times: “We obviously are going to have to look at it closely. That’s a lot of money. This is not a situation where there was a trial. Everything was done on motions. Certain kinds of work are recognized to be appropriate and certain kinds are not.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/08/27...e-request-hourly-rate-of-1069/#comment-284892
Blog of Legal Times says this:
Nickles said he was meeting with staff later today to discuss whether to negotiate with the Gura and the others or to contest the fee petition in court.
http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2008/08/heller-lawyers.html
QUESTION: If DC was to contest the motion for fees, how would they go about it ... upon what would they base such an argument?
D.C. AG Peter Nickles told the Legal Times: “We obviously are going to have to look at it closely. That’s a lot of money. This is not a situation where there was a trial. Everything was done on motions. Certain kinds of work are recognized to be appropriate and certain kinds are not.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/08/27...e-request-hourly-rate-of-1069/#comment-284892
Blog of Legal Times says this:
Nickles said he was meeting with staff later today to discuss whether to negotiate with the Gura and the others or to contest the fee petition in court.
http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2008/08/heller-lawyers.html
QUESTION: If DC was to contest the motion for fees, how would they go about it ... upon what would they base such an argument?
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