Hollow Points Vs. Solids

JHPs are used to help prevent overpenetration of the target. You're right, dead is dead - including any innocent bystanders. If you're sure that your line of fire is completely clear of them, then by all means use whatever kind of projectile you want.


If you're using wadcutters or semiwadcutters in .38spl, I wouldn't worry too much about overpenetration either, that's a pretty low speed round.

Only if you're in New Jersey.

Generally, you shouldn't have a problem no matter what you choose, but its wise to stay with commercial offerings that are close to standard LEO issue for self defense purposes. Handloads aren't illegal per se, but a particularly grumpy prosecutor may try and twist it to say that you made the handloads extra lethal and try to infer intent.

Shysters, being what they are, will often try and use the type of ammo used even in a good shoot. Have you ever heard the term "Cop Killer Bullet"?

They have tried to use this term and sway a jury against someone who uses home brew ammo. Ayoob, up in NH, has testified in a number of trials against a shooter when the shooter used reloads instead of factory loads.

That being said, it is strongly advised that you carry factory loads when your not at the range. No handloads...

To answer your question, you want the most effective round you can legally carry. Since Black Talon are no longer legal (?), then a quality hollow point is best.

The state police, the labs in 4 major cities here in TX. tested which factory load were the most destuctive. Hands down were the Winchester STHP.

The next, running a close second, was the CCI Blazer GDHP.

A short distance behind these were the +P from Federal and Hornaday.

The info came from one of the San Antonio cops who were involved in the study,

IMHO, There are a number of factory loads to fit every budget. Even the CCI Blazer, aluminium hulled solid point are a good choice.

You do what you think best and good luck

Since Black Talon are no longer legal (?), then a quality hollow point is best.

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Black Talons are not, nor were they ever, illegal. They stopped producing them many years ago, however.

A slick prosecutor can weave a line of BS to demonize any sort of ammo you use.

I would personally recommend a quality hollow point bullet though, if for no other reason than to lessen the risk of over penetration.

Disclaimer, I'm not a doctor, lawyer, or ballistic anylist.

That is my personal handload of 5 gr of UNIQUE with a 150 KIETH bullet in a 38 special.

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I use the 158gr. LSWC-HP from Federal. It's got a good reputation for stopping power and is very accurate. I used to be able to get them for extremely attractive prices. I can't easily get them any more, but I did recently see somebody online who had a supply of them. As a substitute, I would use the equivalent load from Remington or Buffalo Bore. If a prosecutor wants to argue that you AND the FBI are wanton murderers because you use or used the same ammunition, I say let him have at it.

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Since Black Talon are no longer legal (?), then a quality hollow point is best.

Black Talons are not, nor were they ever, illegal. They stopped producing them many years ago, however.
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I still have some Black Talons. Methinks they were just a good hollow point with a black lubricant coating, nothing special.

In my 357. carry, I use hollow point Blazers and in my 380. I use Federal hydroshocks.....I asked a retired state cop I know if there were any laws in PA as in HP's or RN's in your carry weapon and he said no..
But General Geoff said it best overpenetration is something you don't want I.E..Dead or injured innocents.

I was talking with some guys about handloading .38s and they suggested that I could load a wadcutter bullet backwards in the case. This would give me an HP round with a HUGE hollow cavity. At personal defense range I don't think over penetration would be a problem but it would make an enormous hole in the attacker. While this sounds like a very effective round I doubt a jury would agree with the necessity of such a round.

I bet that if a shooting passes the smell test of "rational and prudent person", the type of ammo won't be an issue with a Grand Jury.

Might be a problem if you're in a state that doesn't do the Grand Jury thing, though.

It probably depends more on your location than anything else. If you're in a self defense friendly area, then anything goes so long as it's a good shoot. If you're in an area where it's not quite as accepted, it might not be a bad idea to make sure you have all of your i's dotted and t's crossed.

I use the hollow base wad cutters loaded backwards and have tested them in water jugs. Very effective and often drop to the bottom of the 4th or 5th jug.

The prosecuter is going to try to fry you over using your target loads? hmmmm

Pops

The BIG legal issue with any carry ammo is THIS:

"Does this ammo pose an unreasonable risk to bystanders in the environment where I'll be?"

The next question is, will this stuff stop an assailant?

To me, the next question SOME people ask doesn't even factor in: "will this stuff do too much harm to an assailant?" If I have a round that isn't a danger to bystanders yet will turn a goblin into a layer of paste 40 feet wide and an inch deep, cool!

I would gleefully carry hollow-base wadcutters loaded backwards, except that some modern hollowpoints in 38+P are more effective.

A 150 to 160gr solid-nose Keith design slug will tend to punch very deep, probably leaving a goblin's back at still-lethal speeds. Hence I would carry them ONLY in low-population, low-bystander count areas where critter defense might be an issue. Even in 38Spl, that load is perfect for, say, cougar defense.

When I carry a 38Snubbie, I carry Speer 135gr 38+P Gold Dots (which I have right now and CCWed today in fact) or when I can find them, Remington or Buffalo Bore 158gr all-lead hollowpoints. Failing that, Winchester's 130gr "Supreme" 38+P is another large-cavity jacketed hollowpoint and sort of a "conceptual ancestor" to the Speer 135.

All of these will punch to about 14" tops, usually closer to 12" and reliably expand. They're effective and they're about as "bystander friendly" as you can hope for.

WATCHING YOUR BACKSTOP IS STILL AN ISSUE.

Note that if your gun is a 38 snubbie (2" barrel) very few loads will reliably expand. If your barrel is longer, your number of possible effective rounds goes up. What I've listed are some rounds I know work in a 2".

In 357Mag which I carry more often, I usually run one of the above type 38s in the first two chambers "at bat" and then I run very hot 357Mag "full house" ammo in the next four. The idea being, if the first two rounds don't solve my problem(s), with any luck bystanders will have run away or found some cover or at least hit the deck, and I can start laying down bigger damage.

The exception is that if I know I'll be going into VERY people-dense areas, like a convention or something, I'll back down to all-38 (same loads as above) even in a 357. This is also what a responsible court bailiff would do, as one example.

Sticking with ammo used by police is a good idea for both defensive and legal reasons. First, police departments tend to standardize what works. Second, if they ever decide to use your choice of ammo against you in court, you can use the fact that it's a standard choice for police very strongly in your defense.
Hollow points serve 2 purposes.

1. Minimum chance of penetration.

2. They deliver allot of energy in to the target. Sort of like the difference between having a large needle plunged through your hand VS catching a led ball moving at 100mph. The one you stop is the one that's going to knock the living daylights out of you.

These are both important in self-defense.
Don't think for a minute that your attacker will cease all hostilities the instant a bullet enters his body. If you are using ball ammo, expect the exact opposite; that he's going to come unglued and try to take you with him. You want something that's going to put him down and keep him down. That's what hollow points are good for.

Most police and police departments I have encountered use Cor Bon defense ammo and Federal Hydra-Shocks, both of which are hollow points and particularly nasty ones.