Man arrested while Open Carrying at Political Rally

I'm probably just missing something) but I am still having a hard time finding upon what statute(s) it is made legal.

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You will find no such statute, because there is none. There is simply no statute that makes it illegal to open carry, and thus it is legal. The Uniform Firearms Act specifies that carrying concealed on or about one's person, or in a city of the first class (Philadelphia) is illegal unless said person has a LTCF. In other words, it is completely legal to carry a firearm so long as it's not concealed and so long as you're not in Philadelphia, with no license whatsoever. You do still need a LTCF for carrying in a vehicle, however.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

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§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

1. such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
2. such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

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Thanks, Geoff, that makes things easier to understand. I'd heard it said that state law is like this; it is either made explicitly illegal, or explicitly legal. Otherwise, it is legal. I had a feeling that it would turn out to be something like that.

So what is the definition of open carrying a firearm? May only some of the firearm be visible (say, the top of the grip and slide from inside IWB holster+tucked shirt) or must the weapon be completely visible and easily recognizable? Otherwise could you be charged by accidental brandishing of an illegally concealed weapon?

As long as some part of the firearm is intentionally exposed, it is considered open carrying. For purposes of this definition, the hoster itself can be construed as part of the firearm. So carrying a gun in a flap holster (effectively concealing the gun itself) is still open carrying, as is an IWB holstered gun with the shirt tucked behind it.

Understood, thanks for answering my questions! It looks to me that carrying IWB with just the handle of the weapon sticking out would be a less blatant way to OC (and perhaps cause less trouble/visual contact)

I'm trying to see how practical the OC method would be, even though it is seemingly the only choice an 18yr old adult would have. Could an adult who is 21 years of age or older purchase a firearm and legally transfer full ownership of the firearm to another adult who is 18yrs of age (say, his son) or would the father have to keep the firearm in his name until 21 if he were to allow his son to OC? In short; how does someone between the age of 18 and 20 obtain legal ownership of a handgun?

Furthermore, on OC'ing inside vehicles; if the father and son were together and the father had an LTCF, could the weapon (perhaps a second weapon besides the fathers own CCW) be kept in the vehicle until the destination were reached at which point the son could OC (as long as the firearm is in the fathers name)?

My apologies to the OP of this thread/mods, if you'd rather we take this to PM's please let me know and I will do so. However, I feel that the more times this information is talked about, the more times it is made available for newbies like myself to find the information... thus the reason I've not taken the discussion to PM's at this point. (I'm a moderator on a couple of forums, and I understand how annoying stuff like this can be under certain circumstances).

Uhhh what does this guy expect?

There's a reason for CONCEALED Carry. Use discretion.

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The role of the police is not to enforce discretion, it is to enforce the law. There was no law broken here.

Prophet,

In PA, 18 is the minimum age to own, carry, and use a handgun. You have to be 21 to buy, but an 18-20 year old can have a handgun given to him. However, it will have to be transferred to his name when given to him UNLESS given by a parent or grandparent. Gifted handguns from parents or grandparents don't have to be transferred - there is no paperwork involved in this case.

As you probably know, carry inside a vehicle requires a LTCF if the gun is loaded. If the parent is along and the gun is not on the person of the 18-20 year old, the only thing that could get them in trouble (IMO) is if the handgun is in the 18 year old's name. Otherwise, there would be no reason to think it wasn't the parent's gun if they said so. If the 18 year old was driving alone, he could always carry unloaded while in the vehicle and load up upon arrival. However, he would need to be very careful not to arouse the suspicion of passers-by while loading.

~Dale

Ok, keeping that in mind; what about reciprocity of firearms between spouses? If you have a CCW could you (I'm speculating here) get in trouble for carrying your wifes/husbands firearm in a public place? If no, then why should it be a problem between parents and children of age? Furthermore, could you get into trouble OC'ing a firearm that is not in your name at age 18-20? Also, what constitutes the difference between a "gifted" firearm and a firearm that is just simply not in your name?

I really appreciate the help and answers here, thank you!

There you've got me. I'm afraid you'll have to wait for an answer from a more knowledgeable member for that question.

~Dale

Prophet, in PA there is no registry (or there is not supposed to be, anyway) that ties a person to a gun. My wife can carry any of my guns, and I can carry hers. If I want to give it to her to keep, I can do that without paperwork, and vice versa. Once we go outside the immediate family though, a FFL needs to be involved.

Mr. D; no problem, thanks for the help you did provide!

PennsyPlinker; so what you're saying here is, the signature on the application/record of sale on a brand new firearm has no bearing on who actually owns the firearm?

No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that I can give a gun to my wife to carry for the day, or to own for the rest of her life without having to go through any paperwork. While there is a paper trail connected with a specific gun, there is no registry where I have to submit my information beyond the PIC (PA Instant Check) system.

I can do the same thing with a child of my own as long as that child is of legal age. I am pretty sure that the child also has to be a resident of PA, but I have not looked into it that far. I can also do the same thing with my parents. If I want to give or sell a gun to anyone else, even another relative, it must go through a FFL with background checks, etc.

The role of the police is not to enforce discretion, it is to enforce the law. There was no law broken here

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Thank you tigre.

I posted this on another forum on this subject and on OC in general:

We NEED and MUST change the public perception of guns. OC is a legal option for carry here in PA and while I don't do it often myself I have no problem with it and I defend it.

Bottom line....the anti's have been very successful in the past few decades and this is what the sheeple think:

1. Guns are BAAAAA'd and cause crime.

2. An armed white man of any sort is a Redneck just looking for a minority to lynch.

3. An armed minority is a gangbanger and/or criminal up to no good.

I rarely OC, I mainly CC, the few times I do, I often do so while out with the family. Besides being more comfortable, a different angle is to change to public perception of guns with the public.

It's not everyones cup of tea....but I see OC as just another gun rights issue like NFA items.....I don't own any NFA toys, but I will defend them just as vigorously as any other firearm or firearm right. OC is another right we have to fight for.

Another point (someone elses post on another forum BTW) ......lets take a moment to consider the success of what the activist homosexuals have done by openly displaying/ demanding their rights. If we as a group of individuals openly display and fight for "our god given and constitutionally enumerated rights" like gay activists have had success with, we should learn from that lesson and take a page or two from the playbook. Average people of this country may just start to recognise that we are just normal everyday people going about our own business, just armed. It's almost comical to consider that the gay lobby and activists probably have more guts, unity and cohesion than we do!

If we spend less time attacking each other and thought about what we can actually do "something active like protesting" to guarantee our rights we might just succeed. Let alone getting everyone on the same page that every one of our gun rights is valuable and should be fought for.

I have been active in the pro-gun fight going on 20 years, I have no time for compromise, personally if you aren't willing to recognize and fight for EVERYTHING I have no use for you.

My .02

I've just been in touch with Greg Rotz of PAFOA. As a Californian, I wondered if there's anything specific he'd like non-PAFOA members to do in order to donate. Here's his response, which he asked me to post for the benefit of everyone else on THR.

Nathan,

Thanks for writing. You can find information on how to donate here: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/31704-fundraiser-mountain-jack.html. We have also created a separate, locked thread where you can get comprehensive info on the situation without pouring through dozens of pages of ongoing discussion (which often strays a bit from the topic at hand). That thread can be found here: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/31787-mtn-jack-s-arrest-legal-info-thread.html.

Since Rich Banks (founder of Pa Open Carry) and myself are still working on incorporating that organization, we are using my PayPal account and mailing address to collect donations.

I would encourage you to check out the PAFOA forums when you have the time. There is a wealth of great info there, and there is no requirement to be from Pa. to participate. You may also be interested to read about our preparation for our first court challenge of a municipality that is violating our state's preemption statute. Links to the ongoing story are in the OP of the newly created 'Legal Fundraiser' thread: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/conceale...icipalities-who-refuse-comply-preemption.html.

I work closely with Rich on a daily basis and on a variety of gun rights issues here in PA. The PAFOA community is very supportive of our efforts. I'd encourage anyone [from THR] who decided to donate (to either fund) to identify themselves as THR members so we can gauge their participation.


Thank you again for taking time out of your day to express your support. I look forward to seeing you on the PAFOA forums soon.

Greg Rotz
PAFOA user 'gnbrotz'

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Note that if you're going to donate, he'd appreciate you mention that you're a High-Roader so that the can gauge our support. I'm going to send him a check for $25 or so, since it's about all I can afford, and I don't want to give any money to PayPal for them to keep.

Hope this helps some of you.

PennsyPlinker said:

Perhaps this isn't your intent, but I get really sick of those gun owners who say if we use our rights, the general public might get scared and we could lose those rights. So best tuck them away and don't let anyone see them! Sure, get 'em out and look at them once in a while, and proudly proclaim that we have them, but don't you go messing things up for the rest of us! Oh no, don't exercise your rights, or the Overlords will come down on all of us with both of their hobnailed boots.

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And I get sick of self-righteous gun owners that beat their chest and say to tough it out or die. Unlike people like me that have a CPL, and live in the real world, the one that says you can't fight if you're in a jail cell. Seems as though this guy gave up his gun rather willingly. Why didn't he shoot it out with the cops like you would have?

PennsyPlinker said:

Do you think that the men who used the phrase "Come and take them" worried about whether or not things might "backfire"? I doubt it..

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Certainly not. And they all died. Are you saying you're going to be the first in your state to give up your life for your gun? Wonderful! Me? I like to pick my battles strategically, and with creeping incrementalism, the same way they try to take rights away.

PennsyPlinker said:

Do either of you do anything to further the cause beyond posting on the internet? Huh? Have you spent any money, have you spent any time, working for gun rights in your own locale, or across this nation? Have you called or written your representative, the media, or political action groups? Have you taken any personal risk to further the rights of gun owners?.

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All of the above. But since you're the one with the mouth, what have YOU DONE?

PennsyPlinker said:

There are a lot of people all over the country doing this kind of stuff every day. That is how our rights are sustained, by the actions of those of us who are doing more than second guessing, or worrying about losing our rights if we use them.

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Yes I know. What I don't know is ARE YOU ONE? You'd better be after all this mouthing off!

PennsyPlinker said:

If you're not using them, you've already lost them! And Stevie-Ray, if your attitude is really what you have written, I suggest that you remove the molon labe from your sig line. I suspect that if this really is your attitude, when they do come to take them, you will hand them over and be thankful nobody spanked you for ever daring to own them.

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Now you're just pissing me off. What are you, 6? If you think for one reason that it is a picnic open carrying in Michigan, I just dare you to try. Sure you'll beat it, but even the CPL instructors say "just try it" knowing full well that you're going to be in handcuffs. They let you out, you put another gun back on, because they haven't returned the first one yet, and the next cop arrests you. Enough of this and sheeple are screaming about new laws, and with Michigan's governor and legislators, that is not out of the question. And then you've screwed it up for the people in rural areas that have been carrying openly forever without problems, but now it's against the law, all because you had to prove something. All possible here. And what about Pennsylvania? I've spent a lot of time in your state and I've seen exactly 0 people open carrying. Do you? Have you ever? In fact I don't think you even live in PA. More like some parallel universe.

You want to discuss this further? Take it to PM!

I cant wait for him to win in court. He was legally carrying per state law and because they had nothing on him they hit 'em up w/ a BS 'Disorderly Conduct' charge.

Now he has an arrest record for exercising his right to bear arms!

I hope he wins BIG in court!

I hope he wins BIG in court!
__________________

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If he takes it to court,has a competent attorney(s)and does not get the 1995 O.J.Simpson jury,Mr.Noble wins.

LOL I hope so. This crap needs to have a stop put to it!

Im no lawyer, but to me this is a slam dunk! Then again jurries are full of brainwashed sheeple too!

Problem is to win in court he'll end up having to spend thousands in legal fees. There's something fundamentally wrong with our society when you basically have to pay a usage fee for your rights.

Is this a case where the government could be forced to pay his legal fees if the case is decided in his favor?

Hey guys

Don't know if this has been addressed here yet, but there is a decent forum on open carry called opencarry.org. They also have subforums for every state, and I'm sure this incident has been and is being discussed right now. I have learned alot about open carry here in Washington and I'm sure everyone could pick something up about where they live.

Stevie-Ray said:

Now you're just pissing me off. What are you, 6? If you think for one reason that it is a picnic open carrying in Michigan, I just dare you to try.

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I don't know that I would care to discuss this with someone who can't even hold his temper in a discussion like this and resorts to personal attacks. You want to know what I've done, go to www.pafoa.org and search on my screen name. I post under the same name there as here. I've put my face and my real name in the news, on the radio, and on the internet in the struggle for our gun rights. I have given money and time, helping out those who need it. I contact my representatives at the local, state, and federal level when the occasion demands it, and not just on gun rights.

And if you had any sense at all, you would see this is all taking place in PA. I live in PA. MTN Jack is in PA. Open carry is legal in PA. There are a lot of us who don't tiptoe around in fear of what someone else is going to do or say. I open carry every day. Yeah, there is the risk of cops, handcuffs, jail time, whatever. It was only a few weeks ago I had my county sheriff and one of his deputies screaming in my face because I dared to bring my gun with me to the courthouse and have it checked as the law allows. I didn't worry about losing a right if I exercised it.

And what does any of this have to do with Michigan? Nobody told you that you had to open carry. It's not for fearful people. And I have no idea where you get the idea that I have advocated shooting it out with the cops. But it just seems to me that a big tough internet guy like you with molon labe in his sig line would be willing to do a little more than shrivel up and worry about exercising a right in case someone comes to take it away. So you stay safe in Michigan Stevie, and don't exercise those rights, just like the nice man told you. You don't want to go stirring up any trouble now, do you?

RobNDenver Moderators, this shouldn't be an opportunity for political bashing.

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BOO! HOO! HOO! Come on your joking right?

I've just been in touch with Greg Rotz of PAFOA. As a Californian, I wondered if there's anything specific he'd like non-PAFOA members to do in order to donate. Here's his response, which he asked me to post for the benefit of everyone else on THR.

Note that if you're going to donate, he'd appreciate you mention that you're a High-Roader so that the can gauge our support. I'm going to send him a check for $25 or so, since it's about all I can afford, and I don't want to give any money to PayPal for them to keep.

Hope this helps some of you.

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nplant, coming from someone in a state with your gun woes (california) I commend you for the help and the donation for the defense of our brother in arms here in PA.

Thank You.

Open carry is legal in Pennsylvania? Isn't Pennsylvania a Blue state?

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The state went blue mainly because of the Philadelphia metro area and its massive population....looking at a county by county map of the state we are Majority Red, exceptions are the Cities.

Note that if you're going to donate, he'd appreciate you mention that you're a High-Roader so that the can gauge our support. I'm going to send him a check for $25 or so, since it's about all I can afford, and I don't want to give any money to PayPal for them to keep.

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I'm outa work (again) but I will send a Sawbuck tomorrow.

The state went blue mainly because of the Philadelphia metro area and its massive population....looking at a county by county map of the state we are Majority Red, exceptions are the Cities.

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Great map.
Nebraska,Oklahoma and Utah don't have a single blue county.
Absolutely amazing.
The urban areas are absolutely sucking the lifeblood out of America.
This has to be reversed even at the point of a ............(static)
And I'll match George's Sawbuck tomorrow.