FFL transfer nightmare, help

First of all the FBI does not register guns. An individual can only sell a gun to an individual in another state by going through an FFL in the receiving state. He can send to your FFL to make the transfer.
It sounds to me like you were rejected on the NICS check. Better double check with your FFL as to what happened.

The guy could have kept your money and not even bothered sending your gun in the first place. Obviously the seller is trying to do the right thing. There is always a bit of trust and risk involved with any internet sale. But if the guy sent the rifle once already, I think your safe.

Second, you do not have to send a rifle from FFL to FFL for a transfer. The seller is allowed to send it from his house directly to the FFL. If he couldn't than the delivery company wouldn't allow him to send it at all. I don't deal with FFL's who require this due to the fact that by adding additional personal regulations will eventually make these law. I don't know what games your FFL is playing but I would question him.

Sounds like your FFL doesn't know his butt from the road to China. There are more of them out there than you might think, unfortunately

What is going to keep him from just keeping my gun and my money when it gets back to him?

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Did you go through gunbroker for the sale? An online auction has been proven to be a binding contract and if you went through such a place, you have plenty of evidence to back your claim up.

If you didn't, the only other evidence you have is your first NICS check at your FFL and his log book. The fact that the gun was logged in and a NICS check run as part of the sale process means that the seller shipped a gun to the FFL. This means that you likely already paid for it and shipping, as a seller almost never (as in "unless he's stupid") ships a gun unless it and the shipping are already paid.

The shipping method of the gun could also be used as evidence to there actually being a gun shipped.

A claim of this type could fall into the realm of "contractual theft of a firearm", which gets the important authorities involved. I can't speak to the interstate transfer requirements as I'm not well versed on them, but there's no reason the NICS check would flag on the fact that it's been transfered at all. The paperwork has the gun info on it, but the only thing describing the gun that actually gets told to NICS is "handgun" or "long-gun". If you were denied by NICS, it's on your side.
State or local registration is also a possible spot, but without knowing which state/city you're in, we can't tell you if that's a possibility.

Individuals can send Firearms to FFLs. I do it all the time. You just can't send it to another individual without an FFL.

Sounds like you need to talk to your dealer and get this straightened out. No offense, but it sounds like you don't understand the process.

Here it is in a nutshell:
1. Firearm is purchased. Seller MUST send firearm to an FFL holder (unless this is a private Face to Face sale, then you both must be residents in your state and it has to be legal in your state).

2. Purchaser should inform receiving FFL that a new firearm for you should be coming from X person or business.

3. Firearm is shipped to FFL holder, who then logs it into his Bound Book as a Firearm received. FFL holder should then contact you to let you know your purchase has arrived.

4. Purchaser meets up with FFL holder, and fills out a Federal form 4473, in addition to any state or local forms that might be there (VA has a separate background check and the VA SP conduct the NICS check).

5. FFL calls the information into the NICS, or whatever state agency does the background checks (as mentioned above, in VA it's the VA SP).

6. FFL gets an approval number, or is informed that the sale is refused, or delayed based on a flag in the background check. FFL informs the purchaser of pass, fail or delay. Delays can be anything from sheer number of requests, similar names, or a glitch in the system. For these, you can get a special ID number. (For example, my Dad and I have the same names with the exception of a VI, and a VII so we have decided not to buy guns on the same day, it drove one dealer a little nuts when we did this).

7. You pay for the transfer, pick up your gun, and go home.

FWIW, all the FBI does is conduct a background check through NICS. Unless IN has a waiting period, or a limit on the number of handguns one is able to purchase, it should not be an issue. I hope this helps! Good luck with the dealer.

Obviously the seller is trying to do the right thing.

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Not necessarily. It would seem that he is, but he could still keep the rifle once it's sent back. The good new is, though, that if he does it is mail fraud (assuming you sent payment through the mail) and is a felony iirc. It is against the law to scam someone by offering to sell something and not sending what you were paid for, so don't worry about him trying to screw you; you have plenty of legal recourse.

Ok, one last question: If I buy the handgun in IL (I think it will just be easier that way), will I be within the law to keep it in IN while I live there?

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Why not? IN is not nearly as authoritarian on gun ownership/possession as IL (foid cards and all that).

I am an IL resident who is a student in Indiana. I stay in IN through the school year, and in IL over the summer. When I filled out the forms, I put IL as my state of residence, so when the FFL came up as Indiana and my residence as IL, the call ended there.

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Assuming this is a handgun, the IN FFL should have caught that you put an IL address on the 4473 and showed him an IL DL before he called the FBI. Per Federal laws he can't transfer that gun to you unless you present ID with an IN address.

If I buy the handgun in IL (I think it will just be easier that way), will I be within the law to keep it in IN while I live there?

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Get a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms (Indiana honors these) and make sure your residence isn't a prohibited location under Indiana law.

Just as a side note. While it's perfectly legal for an FFL to receive a handgun from a private party - many absolutely refuse to do so. This isn't a law, it's their choice...

UPDATE: Ok, spoke with the seller, here's what happened: I am an IL resident who is a student in Indiana. I stay in IN through the school year, and in IL over the summer. When I filled out the forms, I put IL as my state of residence, so when the FFL came up as Indiana and my residence as IL, the call ended there. However, According to ATF Rule 80-21, I am an IN resident during the school year, and an IL resident through the summer. So shouldn't I be able to legally purchase a handgun in IN, since the ATF law states that I am a resident?

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This right here is the problem in it's entirety. Why did you put IL resident on a 4473 when you were trying to purchase a hundgun in IN? The FFL should have made no phone calls whatsoever, they should have just refused the transaction plain and simple. If you are an IN resident for part of the year, then you must claim IN residency on a 4473 for a handgun in IN. Then it is up to you to provide proof to satisfy the FFL that you are an IN resident at the time the 4473 is completed.

He's not only legally allowed to withhold the gun until he is sure everything is legal, he's REQUIRED to do so.
FFL holders have gotten in trouble for telling people what to put on a 4473.
Accept the fact that you didn't do your homework before going into this transaction.

I wish he would have done his job and told me what to fill in, I've never filled out a 4473 before so it sure as hell isn't my fault.

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It is not his job to help you fill out a BATF Form 4473. In fact, he can lose his job, his business, and his freedom if he does. ATF does NOT screw around on this, and they run sting operations on dealers regularly... and if it's not ATF, it's people like Bloomberg and his cronies.

He wants to make me FFL transfer to somewhere else. My next question is this: If he wants to charge me to transfer the firearm to a different store, what do I do? I sure don't want to pay that guy for being a thorn in my side. And whats more is that he has my firearm and is preventing me from getting it! Is he even legally allowed to do that?

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Legally he can not transfer the gun to you per the 1968 Gun Control Act, so yes, he can prevent you from getting it. You need to find an FFL in IN to do the transfer since you can't prove IL residency. You will also be paying to have the gun shipped to the IN FFL, and you will be paying transfer fees to both FFL's for their services if you want the gun.

Don't blame the FFL for following the law; blame Congress for passing a law that states that you can only purchase a handgun in your home state.

Amen brother, I am SUPER frustrated with this guy. He has now flatly refused to do anything further for me, and treats me like I am some wanna be criminal. I wish he would have done his job and told me what to fill in, I've never filled out a 4473 before so it sure as hell isn't my fault.

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It is your responsibility to know and comply with the law.

It is not the FFL's responsibility to read your mind or to help you commit a felony....and lose his license in the process.

Do your homework, ask questions, learn and do it right next time.

If it costs you an extra $25 in shipping this time for a re-send, or even if it costs you a lost purchase, look on the bright side.

Nobody goes to Federal Prison, and you have the rest of your life to make additional purchases without jeopardising your freedom or your right to legally own firearms.

Sounds like a small price to pay, and a happy ending.

Here is a link to BATFE's FAQ.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm

BATFE does not look favorably on mistakes, even honest ones.

BATFE does not look favorably on mistakes, even honest ones.

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That is unless the mistake is theirs, in which case they totally ignore it (or try to pin the blame on you).

Brad

I wish he would have done his job and told me what to fill in, I've never filled out a 4473 before so it sure as hell isn't my fault.

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The fact that you have never filled out a 4473 does not absolve you of fault. The dealer isn't allowed to tell you what to put on the form. You must answer the questions honestly. If you answer them honestly and the dealer cannot legally make the transfer, that is your fault, not the dealer's.

If he wants to charge me to transfer the firearm to a different store, what do I do?

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I'd pay him. You don't have that many options. The dealer cannot transfer the gun to you with what you put on the 4473. He cannot transfer the gun to someone else who will give it to you, because he knows the gun is for you and he does not want to be a participant in a straw purchase. He can ship the gun to your home state (he will expect to be paid for this) or he can return the gun to the sender (he will expect to be paid for this) or he can sell it for you on consignment (he will expect to be paid for this.)

If you are very polite, you may be able to talk to the dealer and explain your situation. He may allow you fill out another 4473, this time with a lease agreement or other documentation proving your state residency.

You may blame the laws, and you may blame yourself. Do not put the blame on the dealer. He is following the law. I agree that he should have caught the state difference before ever calling the gun in.

Next time, make it go through one FFL (theirs) to another FFL (yours).

You live, you learn.

Next time, make it go through one FFL (theirs) to another FFL (yours).

You live, you learn.

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Completely unnecessary and potentially expensive. It would not have changed the situation, or the outcome, in the least.

Brad

Nevermind, Brad already said it.