I could come up with a hundred scenarios why you should have a safety and a hundred why you should not. Go to any IDPA or other tournament and see how many people forget to disengage their safety. It happens. Now ask yourself this. What if that was a real life situation. I am not sure if you have ever fired while under stress and their are different levels of stress. Shooting IDPA is stressful because a lot of people are watching you plus you would like to win so those two stress points make even the best practiced people forget to disengage that safety. It happens. In my opinion the best carry is one that you draw and fire. Everybody has their own opinion but if you can justify a safety then you can also justify not putting one in the chamber and just practice racking the slide every time you draw. People will say it is no problem for them but in a nut shell. It is one less thing to worry about. Period. No safety for me thank you.
From a self defense/combat standpoint: what's the deal with thumb safeties?
- Thread starter Telesway
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Ske1etor
Member
... As opposed to what? Having to assemble it first? Having to inflate it? How would having a thumb operated safety stop you from drawing and firing? Its really not that big of a step...
Two completely different beasts there.
Making a firearm ready to fire from the empty chamber condition requires you to draw, grab the slide with one hand and the frame with the other, draw the slide back, hope that the round doesn't nose dive or have another malfunction. Then you must get your shooting grip ready, aim and fire.
A thumb safety requires none of those extra actions. Draw the firearm, sweep the safety either while drawing (Like I do) or sweep it once your sights are on target. Have you ever seen an IDPA shooter forget to pull the trigger? That act requires the same amount of muscles and mental preparation.
Justifying one is not even close to justifying the other.
My thumb safety is disengaged before the muzzle even clears the holster.
easyg
Member
I've used a manual safety for many many years.
I've used them on my rifles, and on some of my shotguns, and on some of my handguns.
But I must admit that I have pulled the trigger with the safety still engaged on more than one occassion.
Lack of consistant and regular training?
Probably.
Regardless of the cause, if I had been in a life-or-death situation the outcome would have probably been the same.....not good.
This is why I like revolvers and Glocks.
The only safety I need worry about is my trigger finger.
I still love to shoot my other guns, the ones with manual safeties.
But the one that I carry, and keep beside the bed at night, is my Glock.
Point and shoot....the way it should be.
I've used them on my rifles, and on some of my shotguns, and on some of my handguns.
But I must admit that I have pulled the trigger with the safety still engaged on more than one occassion.
Lack of consistant and regular training?
Probably.
Regardless of the cause, if I had been in a life-or-death situation the outcome would have probably been the same.....not good.
This is why I like revolvers and Glocks.
The only safety I need worry about is my trigger finger.
I still love to shoot my other guns, the ones with manual safeties.
But the one that I carry, and keep beside the bed at night, is my Glock.
Point and shoot....the way it should be.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1
I keep getting the feeling that many of these posts are coming from folks who have never even held a 1911 in their hand, let alone shot one!
Forgetting to take off the safety during the draw stroke would be about as likely as forgetting to put on your pants in the morning.
I do highly recommend you keep it on until the gun is out of the holster and coming up into alignment however!
Once about 30 years ago, I managed to fumble a draw so bad I pitched the gun down range quite a ways.
Thank John, the safety was still on when it landed!
rcmodel
I keep getting the feeling that many of these posts are coming from folks who have never even held a 1911 in their hand, let alone shot one!
Forgetting to take off the safety during the draw stroke would be about as likely as forgetting to put on your pants in the morning.
I do highly recommend you keep it on until the gun is out of the holster and coming up into alignment however!
Once about 30 years ago, I managed to fumble a draw so bad I pitched the gun down range quite a ways.
Thank John, the safety was still on when it landed!
rcmodel
Ske1etor
Member
RC, I can understand the reasoning behind leaving the safety on until the gun is clear of leather but that particular technique is ingrained in my head.
My Kimber Custom II is good to go if I drop it with the thumb safety off. If dropping it causes the firearm to discharge with the grip safety disengaged and the firing pin stop still engaged then I will assume that I was supposed to walk to the pearly gates that particular day... lol
I can't help it. Its the way I was taught. Acquire my strong hand grip, begin draw stroke, thumb safety as firearm is clearing holster, finger rides on the slide, acquire target, finger on trigger, squeeze trigger, repeat if necessary. After that, thumb safety on, re-holster.
My Kimber Custom II is good to go if I drop it with the thumb safety off. If dropping it causes the firearm to discharge with the grip safety disengaged and the firing pin stop still engaged then I will assume that I was supposed to walk to the pearly gates that particular day... lol
I can't help it. Its the way I was taught. Acquire my strong hand grip, begin draw stroke, thumb safety as firearm is clearing holster, finger rides on the slide, acquire target, finger on trigger, squeeze trigger, repeat if necessary. After that, thumb safety on, re-holster.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I train for self-defense. That means another human being may well die. If that happens, I want to be sure it was necessary and intended, not an accident.
That's why I index the trigger finger and lock thumbs over the safety lock. I can fire by simply closing my hand as the sights come on, but there's no chance of a negligent discharge.
That's why I index the trigger finger and lock thumbs over the safety lock. I can fire by simply closing my hand as the sights come on, but there's no chance of a negligent discharge.
kcshooter
Member
I agree. That's why my natual and trained draw with my 1911 includes getting my finger on top of the safety. That's where it stays.
easyg
Member
Regardless of whether one has a pistol with a manual safety or a pistol without a manual safety, just keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire and there's no chance of a negligent discharge.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Amen. And train so the same motion that puts the finger on the trigger also wipes off the safety.
kcshooter
Member
I agree with the first part, but my safety comes off as soon as I clear leather, long before I'm on target, and therefore long before I want my finger on the trigger.
Telesway
Member
I think the point he was trying to make was that in one format you have to disengage the thumb safety AND pull the trigger while on another you just need to pull the trigger.
By the way, I'm fairly sure fewer people actually forget the safety: if someone manages NOT to disengage it, it probably is due to a failure to disengage it, meaning it was tried but the result was unsuccessful.
Those of you who prefer the thumb safety, do you shoot IPSC/IDPA type tournaments? Have you ever failed to disengage the safety or have you seen anyone fail to disengage the safety when the bell rings? It's hard to believe it'd be that common for experienced shooters who are used to thumb safeties.
As for dropping a gun with no manual safety, I don't think it's that dangerous: the XD, for example, has a grip safety and a trigger safety, both of which need to be pressed in order for the trigger to be pulled back causing the gun to fire. If one of them is not pressed the gun won't fire, I've tried. I think most today's guns with no thumb safety are pretty safe to drop even with one in the barrel. I have no experience what-so-ever with revolvers of any kind.
Yes, although I haven't competed for a few years. However, I've also taken a number of defensive pistol classes that included presenting from a holster and engaging targets. In addition, I practice live fire presentations at least once a month (and often more frequently).Telesway said:
No.Telesway said:
Telesway
Member
Seems this thumb safety vs. no thumb safety-issue boils down to personal preference after all.
Ske1etor
Member
If it was seriously a problem, the 1911 wouldn't still be in use after 97 years...
I agree that it is personal preference but anyone can learn to safely and effectively employ a 1911 with a little bit of practice.
XDKingslayer
member
It must be a problem in this day and age. This is the second post in less than a month with people mind-humping this exact same subject.
I said it in the first one that mind-humping is exactly what this is. Do you forget to use the brakes in your car when you come to a red light? Do you forget to use the bristle end of the toothbrush? Do you put your shoes on the wrong feet?
If you can't handle something as simple as clicking off a safety then obviously a gun shouldn't be your first choice of weaponry.
I said it in the first one that mind-humping is exactly what this is. Do you forget to use the brakes in your car when you come to a red light? Do you forget to use the bristle end of the toothbrush? Do you put your shoes on the wrong feet?
If you can't handle something as simple as clicking off a safety then obviously a gun shouldn't be your first choice of weaponry.
Telesway
Member
I'll repeat once more (hopefully this would be the last time):
It's not that flicking off the safety is difficult or complicated. I'm questioning whether there are any practical benefits to a pistol with a thumb safety when compared to one without a thumb safety from a self defense standpoint?
Aight? That is the point. I don't think anyone said flicking off the safety is complicated or difficult. If someone said it, I must have missed it; who said it and in which post?
Most things are. Folks spend a lot of time on these Forums flogging the whole "is this better than that" to death, when most of the time, it's merely a question of what you like better and what works best for you.Telesway said:
As far as pistols go, pretty much any of the good designs from a quality maker, if properly maintained and in good repair, will do the job, if suits you, if you take the time and trouble to learn to use it, and if YOU can do the job.
As the Romans said, "De gustibus non est disputandum." (There's no disputing matters of taste.)
Vern Humphrey
Member
The practical benefit is in the trigger pull. The training time needed to master double-action or other such triggers far exceeds the time needed to master the single-action pistol.
Telesway said:
Let's try putting it this way:
There can be a multitude of personal reasons why someone may prefer, for example, a 1911 over other types of handguns. These reasons can include things like its slender design, its single action fire control system, its relatively short trigger reach (for people with small hands), the fact that it can be modified fairly easily to suit (e. g., by use of grips of various thicknesses and triggers of various lengths), etc. Now if someone decides that he likes those attributes so the 1911 would be his choice, he must now contend with the fact that the design requires the use of a thumb safety. So if you want to use a 1911 because there are characteristics of its design that suit you, you need to learn to use the thumb safety properly (or pick another type of gun or perhaps get yourself into a lot of trouble by not being able to use your gun well).
NonConformist
member
All my handguns have thumb safeties, my 1911 and both my HKs
I click them off as part of my draw stroke, no problems
I click them off as part of my draw stroke, no problems
Gordon Fink
Member
Bingo! The practical benefit of the thumb safety is that it is attached to a single-action pistol.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
anythingshiny
Member
I carry hk but not in condtion one. my first "real" carry was a 1911 but I was not nearly as well read and practiced back then.
I dont know..Im thinking that if anything really happened
I would fall to practice ..but also know that a good adrenaline dump will mess up what you think you are capable of.
not to bash LEO in any way shape or form...but i have read way way too many post shooting reports where the shooting LEO does not remember how many they shot, cannot remember if they reloaded etc etc...now to me...these are folks, who may not necessarily shoot as much as i do..or "practice" as much as i do...but in general they are "there" way more often than i..and if all that can happen then missing or forgetting the safety CAN happen despite training.
Reading "On Combat" opened my eyes to some of the background of stress and its effects. I may think I have it all down pat...but you just dont know.
For that reason, I would argue that for me..training aside..it is just one more thing that could have an impact...sure sure " i trained a million draws and have always 100% of the time taken the safety off" but how many times under REAL duress have I trained?
Ill take a DA trigger.
Thanks ...now lets go shoot!
I dont know..Im thinking that if anything really happened
I would fall to practice ..but also know that a good adrenaline dump will mess up what you think you are capable of.
not to bash LEO in any way shape or form...but i have read way way too many post shooting reports where the shooting LEO does not remember how many they shot, cannot remember if they reloaded etc etc...now to me...these are folks, who may not necessarily shoot as much as i do..or "practice" as much as i do...but in general they are "there" way more often than i..and if all that can happen then missing or forgetting the safety CAN happen despite training.
Reading "On Combat" opened my eyes to some of the background of stress and its effects. I may think I have it all down pat...but you just dont know.
For that reason, I would argue that for me..training aside..it is just one more thing that could have an impact...sure sure " i trained a million draws and have always 100% of the time taken the safety off" but how many times under REAL duress have I trained?
Ill take a DA trigger.
Thanks ...now lets go shoot!
Sure it happens, nobody is contesting that. But these reports you mention don't give ANY background on these LEO's who forgot to take a safety off, or if they pulled the trigger or not..... Do you know that most Police departments aren't that stringent in their requirements for LEO's getting certified and recertified with thier firearms. I've had LEO's tell me that their department only requires them to qualify twice or once a year!!! In the meanwhile, alot of LEO don't even practice shooting. (this isn't saying that ALL LEO's don't practice, just that there is a significant number that don't put all that much effort into practicing with their side arm.) So I can accept that some LEO's can or might make a mistake when they draw their firearm. They're human after all. But I wouldn't let that disuade me from using what is arguably the greatest combat pistol made, the 1911.
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