Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

I know many people don't like it but I would use a .223 for the round. It packs a big enough punch to kill any person no problem and can take smaller game without completly blowing it apart. I would imagine that head shots could take just about any game. I would say it needs to be a bolt action so that you don't waste rounds when, in a survival situation, you probably can't get more. Also, the ammo is relativly light. No optics at all, just iron sights. I would go with sights that can be adjusted out to 500yds.

Intermediate cartridge, clean operating system (piston), carbine length, magazine fed, semi auto, hi-cap mag.

Why need for a high cap, semi auto for a survival rifle? Keep it simple. A bold action is easy to use, clean, and will last forever.

Minimal survival rilfe.... I don't think you need to make one. If you did build one, I would think in terms of a double barrel (over under) 22 and 223 with a composite stock or something along the lines that are available for ARs. I hear the triggers are tricky however.... just some thoughts.

Shot back into Time

Okay, 100 million years ago, you've be shot back into the really olden days with only one caliber rifle at your disposal, so what would it be? My choice would be a .243 Winchester as the most practical. Would my caliber choice make me superior to every spear-chucker out there? Would I survive?

Of course. The Remington 760, 7600 etc are very reliable. I thought you wanted to build something from scratch? ... and something simple in design too...

Honestly, I think a Ruger Mini-14 would be hard to beat for reliability if you want semi-auto. It would be my choice for fire power for a rifle that I didn't have to clean every 10 shots.

Hey Nolo, I think you are setting a hard niche to fill here. You want something that is good for SD, hunting, and has a simple design.
Of course the simplest design will be bolt actions, but unless you utilize a system like that of the British WWII Enfields or similar, it would be kind of slow for SD, and even those Enfields would be slow by today's standards. I would say semi auto for SD, but that would increase the complexity of the design.
Obviously a semi auto can be made rugged and reliable, I mean look at the M14 or the AK47, but it adds weight, and more moving parts.
I think ultimately, unless you come up with something truly revolutionary, you'll end up with a "best compromise" rifle.

Interesting thread.

Jason

I still think a bolt action would be best and if you want it for food, a smaller caliber would be best because you can take small game such as rabbits. There is very little that can go wrong with a bolt gun and .223 is all over the place. As I said before though. ONLY IRON SIGHTS is a must for a survival rifle.

IMO, if you're talking real total collapse, you'd better be able to recycle.
That means recycling your brass.
Anyone who's shot an AK can tell you that it's not exactly gentle on brass. Even when you can find it it will often have large dings or other damage done to it that can make reuse kind of hard. The AR and FAL can be hard on brass too.
And when you fire your brass is gone. If you knock off an animal and want to get out of the area with your meat quickly without losing a potentially vital casing, your only choice is to put your FAL on "grenade" and hope you remember to switch it back.

Anyhow, you can't carry all the ammo you're likely to need for the rest of your life so one of the Lee handloading kits, a pound of powder, loose bullets and primers, and the ability to cast your own bullets might be useful to have around.
Yes, there are drawbacks, but I think they could potentially be gotten around. And when you consider what the longhunters of the 1700's carried, it was basically similar stuff to do that, minus the equipment for dealing with metallic cartridges.

Personally, I think something like a Marlin .357 in a stainless rendition with synthetic furniture might be just about what you'd want.
- Ammo and brass is common now so start buying it and reloading it.
- They can use .38 Special ammo which adds versatility for small game use.
- The rifles themselves are light and handy.
- Not a semi-auto but firepower is still decent.
- No detachable magazines to lose.
- They and their predecessors worked fine under more harsh and demanding conditions than most of us have ever seen.
- The brass stays in the chamber when you shoot. Fire one shot, eject the empty into your hand, and go collect your deer. Then reload that casing later, perhaps with the same bullet that you recovered from your deer and re-cast over your campfire. Nothing goes to waste.
- Not the most powerful round, but I think it was Shawnee who pointed out once that it's possible to zero it so that you can use the same hold out to nearly 200 yards and still land your shots within a few inches. If not, add a ladder sight to the barrel or an elevation adjustable tang peep sight. I still wouldn't shoot at game past 125 yards or so unless I was next to starving, but it does add some more distance if you need to hold someone off.

Another good case can be made for the 30-30 in a similar gun. At 300 yards you can still land a bullet just under an attacker's belly-button by holding for his forehead. That oughta' take the fight out of him.
Reduced loads can still be used for small game.

Also, the CZ 527 might make a pretty good base to start with. It shares the same characteristics that make the lever action appealing, minus the firepower. In either of it's calibers it would probably do well.
Maybe even better in .223 because of the lesser weight of ammo and the more efficient use of powder and lead. I have no idea how it will work out with cast bullets for small game use though so that's something to consider.

I know you didn't ask for what our best currently available choices are but maybe that gives you some things to consider that you hadn't.

I know it's cliche, but it sounds like you want an AK.

The world isn't going to end, and if it does, you won't be alive to see it happen. Realistically, how long term do you need to survive solely depending upon your rifle?

When I first read your post, the first thing I thought of was those rifle/shotgun combo things. I can’t think of a better platform for survival. But then I guess lugging around shotgun and rifle shells is a bit much, as is only having a single shot in each … but it’s still probably the best “survival rifle” out there. Darn reliable too!

I guess the real question from the posts I have read is what you think you’re going to be up against. If you have to fight your way out of an urban environment, I think a shotgun would be king. It’s not as if you’re going to need a long range weapon in a city if you’re running + once you have gotten out into the country, a slug will take down anything you need. But then I guess if you’re in the Midwest something you can hit distance with may be useful.

So now a rifle may sound like a better idea … but carrying ammo is cumbersome and means you have to carry less of other things. Opportunity costs bite lol. A .223 would be great if people are your biggest concern - smaller bullets, light rifles, and good range. But then would you want it in a semi or a bolt? It just goes on and on and on lol … I guess in a real SHTF scenario, a Beretta Storm handgun & carbine combo, with a bolt on your back would be ideal … but that’s about 18lbs, without ammo. Man that’s hard hauling … But then if you could have the wife carry all the food …

I think people like animals in a survival setting, avoid conflict for fear of being hurt. My desire in a survival setting would be having a rifle that: I could shoot accurately, would take a minimum of fuss to maintain, could put food on the table, was light, and could remove hostile folk out at a distance. To me that’s a .243 in a fast handling, bolt action.

I like Goons idea though of the .357 lever/pistol combo. Hmmmmm combo ammo, light and fast .... Dang! Good idea.

Define survival.

Bad people & SHTF or lost in Tim Buk To?

Lost a 20ga single shot shotgun with a mixed bag of ammo makes sense.

Bad guys, means lots of ammo, mag fed, reasonable knock down power. aka Battle rifle of choice.

Do some looking for Jeff Cooper's reasoning as he refined his Scout Rifle ideas. There is a lot of thought about how a rifle will be used in a certain scenario which affects any design, of course, and he did well at explaining his ideas.

One aspect of "survival": Does your own scenario include firefights against groups, or avoidance of other than some possible situation of dealing with only one or two Bad Guys?

For the hunting use, do you envision daytime shots on large animals at some lengthy distance, or using a flashlight at night, up close and personal?

IMO, there is no "One size fits all."

I think the Springfield M6 comes pretty close to being ideal. A 20 gauge bore instead of the .410 would be better though. That would give you a lightweight gun that could be used to take any animal from moose to squirrel to birds on the wing. The .22 barrel would enable you to have plenty of shots since a couple boxes of .22lr weigh very little and take up very little space.

If you wanted more defensive ability then the Keltec SU16 would be the answer.

Actually for something different, what about a flintlock rifle .50 caliber, if you are in a situation where you can't get a hold of primers to reload metallic cartridges, i.e. collapse of major manufacturing. Flint can be found in the wilderness and hand fashioned, also lead can be cast into bullets. Pure lead bullets work well in muzzleloaders, but probably not for a high velocity .223. Black powder is a simple recipe and could be home made. Also a muzzleloader is simpler than a bolt action. Mountain men and fur trappers survived just fine with muzzleloaders a couple centuries ago. Granted it wouldn't work as well if you needed a battle rifle of some kind but .50 caliber would be enough to take most bigger game and smaller game, like rabbits, could be caught with snares (saving ammo regardless of rifle choice).

sks action chambered in .223.
milled receiver preferably steel.
ambidextrous safety.
polymer body and stock using a material checked for sub zero and high temp durability (i dont know what types are around so no clue on specifics)
accept m-16 mags.
folding stock such as either su-16 or SCAR
stock with either mag carry capacity or some sort of water tight storage compartment.
tritium sight.
picatinny rails.
either low force brass ejection so it does not spit it everywhere or ability to add some sort of brass catcher to enable reloading. this also will require minimum deformation of brass.
weight empty in the 6-8 pounds range.
ability to float would be nice, but not sure if compact and float go together.


.... maybe more if i think on it

Actually for something different, what about a flintlock rifle .50 caliber

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I've pondered that myself. A muzzle loader might make a tolerable survival gun. Maybe not even a flintlock, it could be electrically fired or use a flint but a different form of lock than a traditional flintlock.

There are dozens of recipes for expedient gun powder, from match heads to ashes mixed with gasoline and a properly built muzzleloader could use them all.

It might not be much trouble to pack an AR/AK/FAL/SKS type rifle AND a sawed off flintlock 50 caliber smoothbore.
Might make sense to have a traditional flintlock with some kind of grill igniter insert that could fit into the vent to ignite the powder. If the igniter ever went bad you could still pick up a hard quartz type rock out of a stream and continue using the gun.
Doesn't sound stylish but it would get you several bases covered.
And IIRC, black powder stuff isn't subject to NFA regs.

MK III Hunter for me....small caliber----no overkill. Lighter than a rifle

http://www.usrsog.org/surfire.htm

Survival Firearms:

U.S. RSOG cadre have certain criteria that they have to go by to choose a realistic survival firearm. The evaluation is based on the size of the firearm in conjunction with the ruck or butt pack that it will be carried in, the weight that not only the firearm but the ammo will add to the individual soldiers basic load. And the accuracy that this weapon will display at normal hunting distances. The formula may look something like, 10 yards for a shot on a frog, 25 yards on a squirrel, and 50 yards on a deer or coon.

Caliber Controversy
The .22 long rifle was chosen for one specific reason, the weight and space. What most civilians do not understand is how the U.S. military operates. The average paratrooper weighs 179 lbs. After loading up his base ammo load he is given a L.A.W. or AT-4, frag grenades, flashbangs, smoke grenades, claymore mines, C-4, and then told to load up on what ever extra he wants to carry. Most paratroopers jump into the night over a foreign land carrying a 100-lb. rucksack. Most active duty and prior service personnel are laughing as they read this because they know that they carried more than that. One hundred and fifty rounds of .22 LR weighs less than 50 rounds of 9mm and takes up far less room. Ammo choices in .22 are amazing for all of the different applications that it can be used for.

Rifles
Again for the weapon to be considered it has to be small. In the rifle category it has to break down to fit into a ruck. The three choices that come to mind are the MARLIN Papoose, the AR-7 and the SPRINGFIELD M-6. The MARLIN and AR-7 are semi-auto and the SPRINGFIELD is single shot but it also shoots .410 shot shells. The SPRINGFIELD is the slimmer of the three but it is the longest. The MARLIN is heavier but very accurate. And the AR-7 is very bulky as it all breaks down and is stored in the buttstock. The weapon of choice for U.S. RSOG cadre ends up being a more concealable piece.

And that firearm is a heavy barreled, match grade, .22 caliber pistol. Barrel lengths vary from 5-10 inches, the longer the barrel the better. These are not the types of pistols that you buy at a pawnshop or at a farm sale. They are tricked out, highly accurate weapons systems. With or without optical sights the pistols have rifle like accuracy. RUGER and Smith & Wesson make the two most common models carried. The preferred finish on the firearm is stainless or after-market weatherproofed camouflaged coating. Many cadre have red dot scoped sites, which increase the abilities of the firearm. Many will shoot a golf ball at 35 yards easily and quickly. If the batteries go dead in the wild places, it is just a turn of a screw and the scope comes off. The batteries are the size of a nickel and way less than a dime. Constant run time is over three days. The standard match grade target sights are already sighted in and ready for the worst. These weapons are not cheap. Many cost more than standard combat handguns after the modification are added on. To add to the package a powerful tactical flashlight is mounted under the barrel (Streamlight or Surefire). Why a flashlight? When a red or amber lens cover is added it becomes a nocturnal game-getter.

Many outdoorsman have misgivings about pistols. And the .22 caliber is often times shrugged off as well. Every mammal on this planet has been taken with a .22 caliber bullet at one time or another. Not to mention the reptiles and some aquatic species as well. A.K.A "ED" rendered a deer to possession with his 5 inch heavy barreled S&W, at 65 yards. The shot was to the neck with a hollow point bullet. Sgt. Chandler killed three snakes sitting side by side with one shot using .22 cal. shot shells. We try to stress to people that a handgun is not shot like a rifle (sight picture is different etc.). And it does take good stance and proper mechanics to shoot rapidly and accurately. This comes with a small amount of training, and a large amount of practice. But, practice is cheap with a .22 cal.

If an individual is going to practice shooting for survival purposes or hunting don't shoot tin cans or paper targets for practice. Shoot balloons that are blown up no bigger than a tennis ball. Even better than that are balloons no bigger than golf balls. To make it even more challenging float them down a creek. The we carry all types of ammunition in our SR (survival ruck). To include 150 - 200 rds. of CCI Mini Mag hollow points for game and defensive purposes. 50 - 100 rds. of CB caps, which are a very quiet, shortened round that moves at approximately 800 - fps. (these are almost silent from a rifle). Plus, 20 rds. of .22 cal. shot shells. As a soldier it is illegal for you to use civilian ammo against the enemy. And it is considered murder in the American military, if you kill an enemy soldier with a non-issued firearm. But, all that is thrown out of the window when it comes to E & E. Its you against the world in the bad guys back yard.

Don't let the would-be survivor be fooled, high-speed .22 cal. pistols are an unbelievable equalizer against the Reaper. Feed yourself and protect yourself is the golden rule. Long heavy barreled pistols with a red dot or traditional optic sight are deadly serious for survival applications. All of the U.S. RSOG cadre do not use .22 cal. rifles as their main stay for hunting any more. The pistols have taken over for the .22 rifle applications. And if that doesn't get it done, out comes the .22 magnum rifle. Here is a list of the wild game taken for the cooking pot (during organized survival training on military bases, not sport hunting) by U.S. RSOG instructor cadre, with .22 cal. pistols. Coon, deer, turtles, fish, quail, squirrel, turkey, rabbits, possum, frogs, snakes, ducks, geese, fox, muskrat, birds, beaver and that's just in North America. And here is the best part from our cadres standpoint. Six small game snares, 2 medium snares, scent lures, fishing kit, 2 butane lighters, purification tabs, spaces blanket, 550 cord, signal mirror and the pistol and ammo, all fit into a kit as small as most peoples fanny pack survival kits ! The weight of the kit changes but so do the odds (in your favor).

Firearm Specs
To be more specific on the modifications of the pistols or "race dragons", as they are known around here, make and model would be the best place to start. There are many good quality .22 cal. pistols and revolvers on the market today. Most of our cadre carry Ruger Mark II or Smith & Wesson 22A. Again stainless finish with heavy barrel is preferred. Many are "slab sided" barrels, which is a rounded heavy barrel with flat sides. A Weaver type base is screwed on the Ruger or special scope mounts can be found that lock around the receiver of the pistol.

The Smiths have flat top rails already factory mounted to accept scope rings. Both models come factory with match grade sights. Some have match grade grips. Because all of our cadre train to shoot ambidextrous the match grade grips are replaced with HOGUE rap-a-round grips. HOGUE makes a great product that lasts for years and is almost sticky feeling in the worst weather. This is a good thing of course. Most rings used on our pistols are BURRIS, MILLET and some WEAVER. The best are the 4x4s, which is slang for rings that use 4 Allen set screws to hold the top of the ring to the lower portion of the ring. As opposed to hooking the top strap on one side of the lower ring and screwing it down on the other side of the lower base ring. Many red dot scopes already have scope bases attached from the factory and do not need rings. The BSA for example, although a small amount of filing on one corner is need to fit it snugly to a Smith 22A.

As for optics the top is the AIMPOINT which is the only waterproof scope. It has a 3 MOA, the smaller the MOA the better. TASCO makes the Propoint and the Accu Dot, which are good scopes and less expensive than AIMPOINT, but not waterproof. Of course SIMMONS has a red dot scope too. And then there is the BSA line, which are reasonably good optics as well but again not waterproof. On the upper end there is the TASCO Pro Point Optima 2000 and The BUSHNELL Holo sight.

None of them are any better than the others with the exception of the AIMPOINT, it is the top dog. All of these makes and models are carried by our cadre. A large "tube" is recommended, from a 42mm to 50mm. It just makes it easier to pick up running game or other moving targets. Rabbit hunting in the snow is a favorite of our people with the race dragons. The faster they run the faster you have to shoot. Most the high dollar scopes only come in 30mm to 32mm, which is not a bad thing at all. Traditional optics are a very good choice as well. Pistol scopes usually run in the $200-400 range. The red dot scopes are sighted in at 25 yards for a 1-inch group of three shots. The traditional scopes are scoped in at 50 yards for an inch group. Both are shot off of a sand bagged bench rest. If an individual already carries a 1911 or Glock, a .22 conversion kit can be had for less than $200. CIENER builds a complete line of them, they are a great product. This way duty ammo can be used for defense situations and .22 ammo will fill the "game getter" role. Optics can be mounted on the full sized handguns as well. This is a wise way to go. Once an individual builds and successfully takes game with it, it becomes the weapon of choice.

First of all I am happy with what I have so I will explain what that is:

A Savage model 24V that has the barrels shortened to just over the legal length. The top barrel which was .222 Remington has been re-chambered for the .223 Remington. , The bottom barrel which is 20ga. has had screw in choke system installed ( I chose improved cylinder ) but one can use whatever they think shoots best for them. The improved cylinder choking gives me decent shot patterns and shoots slugs just fine.

The two barrels where tuned when I shortened them in order to have them shoot to the same POI and POA at about 30 yds.

In the forearm I built a compartment to hold a chamber adapter. This adapter is for the upper barrel and converts it to use .22 RF ammo . This also shoots to the same POI as the .223 and the 20ga with slugs, zero's at about 30 yds.

In the butt is a storage compartment for extra .22 RF ammo . So now I have a compact gun that breaks down to three pieces for storage and carry. It has the capacity to shoot .22 RF , .223Rem , 20ga. bird shot, buckshot, or slugs. I set it up with plain iron sights, a baked on olive drab finish on the metal and a durable black paint on the wood. It also has sling studs and a sling for carry that way when the gun is put together.

What I would build in if starting from scratch : I would likely make the receiver a little smaller - just large enough to accomadate the 20ga. barrel on the bottom, and possibly flared on the receiver to do just that. A reciever about the same size as used on the Thompson Center Contender would be just fine. I also would build the stocks from composite with as much storage room inside as allowed by size. I would make it stainless steel, and yet coat it with a flat durable finish to take away any shine. I would beef up the firing pins slightly to assure they would be durable.

That's it for me - I would not wish to get into fire-fights no matter what I had. Just enough gun to make sure I can defend myself at some distance (.223Rem) and at close range (20ga. buckshot). Use mostly the .22 RF for foraging .

I'll take the bottom of the first page ...
just checking into what could be an interesting thread.

Goon said:

Personally, I think something like a Marlin .357 in a stainless rendition with synthetic furniture might be just about what you'd want.

<snip>

Another good case can be made for the 30-30 in a similar gun.

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Goon and I think a lot alike.

Only thing I don't necessarily agree with is stainless and synthetic furniture.
Good wood and blued can be mostly as reliable even if a bit heavier,
and I'd prefer that mine didn't shine in the moonlight ...