.380 question.

I've owned and enjoyed shooting .380s for many years, yet I do not delude myself into thinking that the round is a good defense choice when there are so many others that have better track records.

Jeff Cooper placed the .22lr, .32acp, and .380 in the same category concerning effectiveness for self-defense. He frequently wrote that each could kill but would not likely stop an attacker. He said that using such might actually enrage the other person.

That said, I have and use all three,...,but Mr. Cooper's comments are in the back of my head.

the naked prophet said:

I bet everyone who decided to leave their big heavy .45 at home was wishing they had a smaller lighter gun when the SHTF.

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Not necessarily.

Maybe what they really wished for was that they hadn't left home improperly dressed! Their dying thoughts could have been something like; 'If I'd brought my AR-15 with me, I probably wouldn't be dying right now!'

I currently carry a Seecamp LWS32 for the time being until I can afford (and find) the same gun in 380. The bigger the better, but I'd still rather have the 380 in my pocket, than the 45ACP I left in the car/at home. Besides, it's all about shot placement, right? And that's why we practice, practice, practice.

These guns are not "fun" at the range, but they definitely make me feel better driving home late at night.

I shot my PPK/S .380 at an old 49 Ford to test the round. At 10', the FMJ went through the panel, hit a metal 5 gal bucket directly, tore through both sides of the bucket and fell off the opposite side panel. A JHP also penetrated the panel, tore a large hole through one side of the bucket, but didn't have the energy to exit the other side.

The PPK isn't my primary carry, but I don't feel unprotected when carrying it.

.380 is what people carry because they can't conceal their twelve guage shotgun. The .380 is a compromise, giving up some power in order to gain a pistol that small enough to carry discreetly. Yeah yeah buckets and Makarovs and gelatin but at the end of the day it's still less powerful than what you'd want for the house.

There is no reason to retain a .380 as a dedicated home defense pistol (unless your own pistol is your carry piece). In your home, you might as well have a full size pistol in .40 or .45 or a wheelgun with a comparable chambering.

Or better yet, as per the first suggestion get a short barreled shotgun, but remember that the shotgun is better for hunkering down in one place.

No such thing as a one shot stop. Get that notion out of your imagination. You fire until the threat has ended / the perp stops the attack.

Good luck!

We have a neighbor who suffers from Rheumatoid Arthritis. He has a lot of pain and tenderness in both hands, and wrists, and some distortion on the fingers.

For home defense, he can shoot a Beretta Model 86, in .380 ACP. That's the model with the tip-up barrel, so it requires no racking of the slide. He can handle the weapon, and firing it leaves him with some discomfort, but is manageable.

For him, the larger calibers are immediately too painful to use. There are a number of physical conditions that require such guns be used.

While I would use a heavier caliber, to him, it beats a rock.

Posted by EHL:
Bravo Defensory!!! What a great argument. You accept this one statement to be the end all-be all of God's great truth about the .380 acp. I know who Ayoob is, don't patronize me. There are many authorities that consider the minimal caliber for SD to be the .380. So rather than pulling out a ruler and measuring who's expert is "bigger", let's just agree to disagree.

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NAME some of your "authorities"!

I can name considerably more who support my position. The immortal Jeff Cooper scoffed at even the 9mm, which is a much better man-stopper than the pathetic little .380.

If you take a handgun course at the world renown Gunsite training center in Arizona, originally founded by Cooper under another name, a 9mm is the MINIMUM caliber of semi-auto they'll let you use.

The overwhelming majority of nationally and internationally respected handgun self-defense experts recommend nothing less than a 9mm, and Jeff Cooper even ridiculed that.

I'll take internationally renown experts like Ayoob and Cooper over you and your alleged "authorities" any day.

if it is shot out of something bigger accurately, it does not matter what it is loaded with. but heavier bullets make them better throwers.

all that aside; i will use a p3at (silvertips) as a BUG or to walk-the-dog. though if i can fit a bursar in a pocket than a p11 (golden saber) will also.

To anyone who..........

.........expressed this opinion , I'm sorry for reinstating it. I'm very busy these days for various reasons and not up to snuff on the forum. If you are not carrying the .380 and just using it for home defense, then go with a high cap such as a CZ83( which I own and love!), or a Beretta Cheetah( I think that they are high cap but I could be wrong since I have no first hand knowledge). Bersa also makes a high cap now. Since there are many larger calibers available in this size pistol, many people will tell you to go to those calibers. If you are planning to carry it then maybe you want to go to one of those higher calibers. Or you can be like me who carries a Sig P232SL and buck the whole system. I have no probs carring the .380 round for self defense. And yes, I also have larger calibers that I can carry. Though for home defense I have a 12 gauge handy and a large mean dog.

KevininPa said:

Or you can be like me who carries a Sig P232SL and buck the whole system.

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Ah yes. The grand mack daddy of the .380s. Spendy, but worth it in my opinion. I love mine.

KevininPa said:

Though for home defense I have a 12 gauge handy and a large loyal dog.

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Fixed it for ya. Amen brother.


-T.

I stand corrected.

He is very devoted.

If all else fails,try my Desert Eagle.Cal.357,one shot,no more ,no less, one shot will surely stop' em at the door,he will later possibly confess, all depends on your mark,perferably a direct hit in the chest".

I have yet to find anybody who knocks the .380 or, for that matter the .25 and .22 for self defense, who will volunteer to stand in front of someone firing one of these mouse guns. Is the .380 the perfect SD gun? No, however I don't feel unarmed when I'm carrying my PPK.

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I am so tired of reading this red herring of an argument.

I will not stand there unarmed and let you aim carefully and shoot me with your .380.

I will gladly face you (BG) and your .380 with my .45 in hand, and see who can accurately place one or more lethal shots COM, and let the chips fall where they may. Because when you get right down to it, that is what the argument is.

Pretending and arguing otherwise is fallacious.

Nice post #65 Ghost Walker.

To get a one shot stop you have to have a Central Nervous System hit. that means brain, vegal nerve, or spinal column. Anything else and the intruder might react with unpleasant results.

380 ? for defense

Here in my area of central Texas, most CCW instructors are ex - LEOs . They almost always agree the 380 is the SD. minimum to consider . My SD pick for the 380 is the Bersa, and Fed. Hydra Shocks. Mine thinks it's a target pistol with this round. Would I rather have my 1911 ? yea , but with the accuracy of this round I feel OK. using it when a full 5 " 1911 just doesn't work out ,especially in hot weather.

This is a good read.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/01/sufficient-calibers.html

When the intruder threatened him with a knife, Taylor warned him, then brought his .22 caliber pistol to bear and shot him right between the eyes.

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A .22 in the right hands is sufficient. If this guy had a .380, the intruder would be history.


-T.

I think the .380 is an OK self defense caliber. Its chambered in small easy to carry guns and doesnt have much recoil. I definitely would carry it over a .32 or a .25, but I wouldnt carry it as my primary if possible. Keltec makes a 9mm thats about the same size as a Bersa. I would feel better with a good 124 grain ot 147 grain bullet over a 90 grain one.

PS. I had a Bersa and it was a fantastic weapon for the price.

One of my all around favorites though not a high tech blaster is my Beretta 84 bb.
Cocked and locked carry, a bit big for a 380 now a days, but 14 rounds!
380 may not be a 45 but show me somebody who want to get hit 14 times!

There are SO many pistols chambered in 9mm, and also many in .45 acp, which are of the same approximate size and weight of the Beretta, Bersa, Makarov, Sauer, and all but the tiny little pocket guns that it's a wonder that anyone would take the chance of depending on a lesser caliber like .380. It's now ALMOST as easy to carry a real gun concealed as it is a popgun.

It's got to be that people who do are simply playacting at self defense and in truth see no need of it ever arising in their lives.

I'm sure that there are legions of the authoritative voices we hear here and so many other similar places who, if told that they could not ever again carry a pistol at all without facing sanction would be in full compliance the next time they left their houses, and be completely comfortable with their new situation. Some would even be secretly relieved that the matter had been taken from them and they no longer had a choice. It would be so nice to not feel that they had to figure out where to carry those uncomfortable things any more.

It is NOT dangerous everywhere. Most live in quiet little neighborhoods and towns where the crime rate is low and their chance of being assailed on their streets is practically nil. Those who live in or must go into truly dangerous areas KNOW the danger and when possible arm themselves accordingly. The others simply avoid such places and live without substantiable fear, or could were it not for the deepset paranoia that instills them from watching news programs or reading horrific accounts or worst of all giving great attention to the supposedly real life cop shows that are so common and popular. These are your .380 owners and defenders.

And, given that these people really don't need any defense, self or otherwise, they're quite right that their little guns are good enough.

I now carry a gun in 9X18 Mak daily. (CZ82) I don't like the round . . . it's a bit weak in my opinion. So why?

After much practice with about 3,000 flawless rounds of cheap russian ammo, I can now basically "will" rounds where I want them in rapid fire with either hand in rapid fashion. The gun holds 12+1 and I stagger my mags with Hornady 95 gr. JHP's and ball ammo.

Believe that one shot stops are a fallacy. . . because they are - with any caliber.

So again, why the 9x18?

Simply because I can get hits where I need them to be fast and with no doubt. I can't do that with my S&W 642 or even my SIG 239.

Count on the addage that if it's worth shooting - it's worth shooting more than once. Take it from someone who's tried carrying small form factor guns in bigger calibers . .. they're hard to shoot well when you need to.

I like the CZ because it has a small form for carry (albeit a bit heavy), but to have 13 rounds on tap that you can put where you need them to be - anytime, all the time was more important than much anything else.

The way I figure it is I could if needed take on up to 3 attackers and get 4 sure hits on each with a gun I can actually carry and hide well. I'll take those multiple .365" holes I know I can make.

There are SO many pistols chambered in 9mm, and also many in .45 acp, which are of the same approximate size and weight of the Beretta, Bersa, Makarov, Sauer, and all but the tiny little pocket guns that it's a wonder that anyone would take the chance of depending on a lesser caliber like .380. It's now ALMOST as easy to carry a real gun concealed as it is a popgun.

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That's just it, your use of the word "almost" is a loaded term. Even between the relatively small Kahr PM9 and the new Kahr 380, there is an easily distinguishable size difference. There are alot of guns that are chambered in .380 that are easily the size of a small 9mm or even a .45, and so logically, it would seem one would opt with one of the larger caliber sizes right??? Well, size is one thing, but there are other factors for some people. Recoil and accuracy to name a few. Perhaps there are people with arthritis that can't manage the recoil of one of these larger, more potent calibers? Another thing to consider is perhaps alot of us don't like any of the pocket 9 options. I for one HATE the Kahrs. I don't like their feel, their recoil, or much else, the ONLY thing I do like is the caliber it's chambered in. I don't like the other options either. I already have an officer's 45. acp, but she's still ALOT bigger and bulkier than my .380 is. Guess who gets taken out more often? (The one that I can still hide without having to dress like a gang banger with baggy/saggy cloths) I'm not that big of a guy, so I don't have too much options in carrying. So for me, it's a matter of options that keeps me relegated to using a .380. I'm sure that there are others in similar circumstances.

I'm sure that there are legions of the authoritative voices we hear here and so many other similar places who, if told that they could not ever again carry a pistol at all without facing sanction would be in full compliance the next time they left their houses, and be completely comfortable with their new situation. Some would even be secretly relieved that the matter had been taken from them and they no longer had a choice. It would be so nice to not feel that they had to figure out where to carry those uncomfortable things any more.

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I don't know where this came from. I can't even imagine anybody who would even spend time in this forum adhering to this mode of thinking, unless they were an anti-gun troll. I'm sure the vast majority of us strongly believe in an inalienable right to self defense.

It is NOT dangerous everywhere. Most live in quiet little neighborhoods and towns where the crime rate is low and their chance of being assailed on their streets is practically nil. Those who live in or must go into truly dangerous areas KNOW the danger and when possible arm themselves accordingly. The others simply avoid such places and live without substantiable fear, or could were it not for the deepset paranoia that instills them from watching news programs or reading horrific accounts or worst of all giving great attention to the supposedly real life cop shows that are so common and popular. These are your .380 owners and defenders.

And, given that these people really don't need any defense, self or otherwise, they're quite right that their little guns are good enough.

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I think that's a bit over the top classifying all .380 owners to your typical middle class suburbia that never has or will see danger in their lives. Look, simple statistics show that the vast majority uses for guns in self defense never even require a shot to be fired. Criminals are like animals on the hunt. They are looking for an easy target, period. They don't want to risk getting shot by a BB gun, much less a "pop gun" like a .380. They want the yokel that will not offer resistence, once anybody establishes that they are willing to fight to defend themselves, the chances of the criminal leaving them to look for another more willing victim is quite good. In the unfortunate event that deadly force must be used, it is hoped that whatever caliber you are using, that it will be enough to stop(i.e. end, kill, immobilize, etc..) the attacker.

One must always keep in mind that not everybody can carry a full size government 1911 on thier body because of the different shapes and sizes of our bodies. There's lots of people in this forum that carry these big pistols daily, but these guys tend to be big corn fed boys that could hide a small arsenal on thier person and none would be the wiser. Our occupations also can have a dress code/uniforms that we are required to wear, this also can play a big part in our choice of firearms.

So before all the haters of .380 come out and say how naive any person who carrys a .380 is, think about some of the other factors involved with carrying concealed weapons rather than simply thinking about it in terms of caliber only.

all your doing, EHL, is putting your comfort over your safety as do so many of the mousegun afficienados. "Gee, I can carry a gun but those big ones are sooo uncomfortable. They hurt my hands, they pull down my pants, it sticks me when I sit down. I need a better answer, and besides, I've never even seen a bad guy here except on TV."

I'd submit that a person suffering from arthritis will not feel it at all if his or her life is about to end. I'll submit that most of the people who are able to successfully carry a colt (or other) 1911 pistol are the skinny guys who can wear pants that are tight enough to stay up on their boney hips. Your cornfed 250 pounders generally need to wear suspenders to carry on their belt and so have a tougher time than you do. If they don't their belt will never resist the inevitable roll under their bellies no matter how tightly they cinch their $100. gun belt.

The reality is that it's only people who have actually known the need who take their personal protection seriously and carry serious weaponry. Combat vets know, prior victims of violent crime know that when it hurts it hurts bad and they know too how quickly a person can go from being there talking to lying there dead.

When it comes down to the wire there is no room for the sorts of compromise that peashooter carriers so willingly accept for the sake of their comfort.

As it happens I am a near 60 year old you call cornfed arthritic diabetic with severe edema and periferal neuropathy. I'm also a combat vet with two Purple Hearts. I carry my .45 in an Isreali surplus shoulder bag now that I'm retired but I used to carry it in my briefcase. Have you any idea how silly you sound when you say:

"One must always keep in mind that not everybody can carry a full size government 1911 on thier body because of the different shapes and sizes of our bodies. There's lots of people in this forum that carry these big pistols daily, but these guys tend to be big corn fed boys that could hide a small arsenal on thier person and none would be the wiser. Our occupations also can have a dress code/uniforms that we are required to wear, this also can play a big part in our choice of firearms"

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the sternum would be severely shocked from any of the cartridges you listed (FMJ, HP, SP) and would at the very least chip from the impact. If it was the FMJ it would probably crack it and if it was the HP it would probably slide off the side in between the ribs and bounce around a bit. The thing about FMJ is it basically goes where you point it. Shooting an AK at a tree (a live tree) about 1 foot thick still very green the AK FMJ rounds went thru the tree and promptly landed between 2-5 inches behind the tree in a small pile. The bullets still had their tips intact and just looked like the bottoms had been pinched. Shooting thru concrete blocks with the Mosin Nagant FMJ rounds they showed almost not distortion at all but were basically still intact. With a .380 I would be hesitant to rely on FMJ for self defence. I'd go with the HP as they have a higher probability of shredding internal organs and thus slowing down the body processes faster.

Keep in mind also, the pocket 9mm pistols are more expensive, less reliable, less durable, and have more recoil than the pocket .380 pistols.

Some of the 9mm minis are more than twice the price (and harder to find) than a .380 of comparable size. The only really inexpensive one is the Kel-Tec PF9, and there's folks who (deservedly or not) won't carry a Kel-Tec. But there are many high-quality, trusted options for a small .380.

Putting 9mm in a gun that size tends to beat up the gun much, much faster. Things like peening frames, cracked rails, premature spring failure, etc. are much more common on the tiny 9mm pistols. How are you going to get much practice on that tiny little .380 sized 9mm if it only lasts 1000 rounds before you can't trust it any more? Even if it lasts 5000 rounds before failure - would you trust your life on it by the time it gets to 4000 rounds? Or will you buy another extremely expensive pistol to carry (after breaking it in) while you practice with the older one? Not to mention the problems getting a gun that small to function with such high-pressure ammo - the extremely stiff springs, light weight and high speed slide movement, etc. Many of us would rather have a durable .380 with which we can practice in high volume, and eventually pass down to our descendants, than a 9mm with a very limited lifespan with which we are unable to practice.

There are plenty of folks who just can't handle a pocket pistol. Not everyone is the height of physical perfection like you are. To denigrate anyone who chooses a .380 over a 9mm, well, that's just rude. There are the elderly, the weak, those with nerve or muscle problems, and other issues which prevent someone from being able to handle a pocket 9mm. The recoil may be too much for someone with arthritis to be able to practice - where they may be able to practice with a .380. And it is the practice which is a problem - they may not feel pain while shooting in a self-defense scenario, but unless they practice regularly... Not only does it have more recoil, it requires a firmer grip to ensure reliable cycling. Racking the slide is much much more difficult as well.

There are several valid reasons for carrying a .380 instead of a 9mm. Personal attacks on folks who choose different carry options than you do, is most definitely not high road.