Friend got harassed by the police for OC

And remember what they say "if you cooperate and tell us everything i will see that we make it easier for you" "Just tell me everything you can and it will be so easy" "if you cooperate and tell us everything you will feel so much better"

I think I will go out and open carry tomorrow. Just because I can.

"Respond "yes sir" or "no sir" to questions."

I was under the impression that the Officer was working for ME (and the rest of the public). Sir, hell...... "Yes, Officer _________ (read from name tag)/ No, Officer ______ (read from nametage).........

I was under the impression that the Officer was working for ME

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You are acting under a mistaken impression then. Police work for the State, county, or city they are an officer in. Their job is to uphold the law and no where in their do they work for YOU.

Saying Yes sir or No Sir is a matter of respect. No you don't have to do it, however I for one prefer to treat people with respect till such a time that they give me reason to treat them otherwise.

"Respond "yes sir" or "no sir" to questions."

I was under the impression that the Officer was working for ME (and the rest of the public). Sir, hell...... "Yes, Officer _________ (read from name tag)/ No, Officer ______ (read from nametage).........

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Oh brother. You sure know how to teach those uppity pigs a lesson.....

Politely ask the officer for his name, badge number, and vehicle number then start with his duty officer and work your way up questioning whether what the officer did was legal or harrassment.

What Kind Of Disturbance?

First let me say I have more years with a badge (Star) than the Officer you are talking about. I have never stopped a vehicle that was not speeding and explained to the driver why he should never speed. I have never stopped at a house that I was not called to and told the occupants why they should not fight. Now, in defense of the officer (only for the interview) someone with a gun on a disturbance call could be trouble. Once it was established that your friend was not involved in the disturbance the interview should have been over. I have a question, how do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Do they wear signs in the state? Just curious. Also what kind of advise did the officer give your friend?

I fully believe that there is only one reason some cops are twitchy about citizens with guns. It goes against their personal agenda/ego. “Only cops should have guns” or “Only cops should provide protection” are the ones that come readily to mind.

It is a moot point in Texas as OC is not legal. In the states where it is legal do the bad guys walk around with a gat on their hip? This doesn’t seem logical to me. Even if OC is legal and accepted it still draws attention. I should think that the bad guys would want to keep a low profile. Seeing an exposed gun would be the very least of my worries.

Now, in defense of the officer (only for the interview) someone with a gun on a disturbance call could be trouble. Once it was established that your friend was not involved in the disturbance the interview should have been over. I have a question, how do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Do they wear signs in the state? Just curious. Also what kind of advise did the officer give your friend?

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How do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Sheesh! With all your experience, please relate any encounter with a bad guy that was open carrying. I'll sit here and whistle while you review all your field notes, OK?

As for the advise [sic] the officer gave, please reciew the opriginal post.

stay safe.

skidmark

First of all, I would have walked away in the middle of the lecture.

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Sounds like a good way to cost your self more time being lectured.

Look folks I am not saying any one is right or wrong here, even though one side is clearly not right. My point is if you value your time just be polite when the incident is over then you can make complaints through channels.

IF you dont like that idea then you can always stand there and argue with the officer until you totally piss him off then get arested for some sort of minor offence like disturbing the peace.

all in all it only has to get as far out of control as we allow it.

I have a question, how do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Do they wear signs in the state? Just curious. Also what kind of advise did the officer give your friend?

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Never met or saw a perp wearing a holster for his gun.

I guess you have to use the exact same method as to who a good guy or a bad guy is without a gun. We used to call it police work, I don't know what it's called today in your jurisdiction. Maybe, you do have to wait for a sign.

Go figure.

Fred

Heh, 'complain through channels'. That's rich.

I've tried 'going through the channels' before, with some paperwork around here. Bottom-line paper-pusher. Their supervisor, who assured me it would be taken care of post-haste. Twice.

So let's try the guy above them. he said they were both wrong--it was actually above him. Oh, well that's perf-- No.

To heck with the next level or two, DA gets a call. She says she'll look into it. A week passes. Another call, another promise. Another week, and I end up on the phone telling the DA, personally, that, quote, "I have a list of names here. Someone on this list isn't doing their job, and someone is covering them. Please, inform me who this is, so I'll know who I need to talk to or if I need to get my lawyer (I mentioned his name, he had a few things to say about the DA himself, and I knew they had bad blood between them) involved to talk to a few people." I really do hate having to play politics.

I got the paperwork three days later, dated for a week before that date on one spot, and the day after on another, earlier portion.

Point is, people watch the the people under them, if just because they want to shift the blame up. The trick is to skip a few channels. Then the bigwigs start yelling over why the heck it got that far, and they're pretty eager get stuff done when failure to do so means they get a call from a judge or a visit from a rival.

Eric has an excellent summary posted there. Why not listen to what he has to say?! :banghead:

During a contact, the officer IS in charge. It's their job. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you get to go on with your business. The less flack you give them, the sooner it will be concluded. The more polite you are, the sooner it will be concluded. Does anyone NOT see a trend there?!

It does NOT matter if the officer is not 100% correct. During the contact is NOT the time to resolve the accuracy of his comments. You have his name (this presumes you can actually read), you have the city/county information and, presuming you can read your watch, you have the date/time. If - AFTER - the contact is concluded, you feel the need to complain, do so. You are allowed to do that. If, instead, you choose to scream like and idiot about your rights (watch several episodes of COPS on TV and make note of how many of the bad guys take that approach), yell at the officer for daring to ask you a question, or assert the "fact" that you pay their salary, PLAN on spending hours getting the issue resolved, rather than the three minutes it would have taken otherwise.

If you believe the cops are bad, try looking at over half of the rest of the world and how the cops in other countries treat transgressors (Russia, for example). Our guys and gals in law enforcement have a lousy job. The sooner you QUIT attempting to make it worse, in the name of your "rights", the sooner you will find they are some nice people (not 100% mind you, but the vast majority are). Just because you had a bad experience with an LEO previously, doesn't mean the one talking to you will not treat you fairly, if you let them.

mtruette said,

I have a question, how do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Do they wear signs in the state? Just curious. Also what kind of advise did the officer give your friend?

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I am not, nor have I ever been a cop. I have never wanted to be. But the question has been asked, so here goes...If I am correct, this incident happened at a restaurant, i.e. in a public place.

Johnny Law says, "Hey mister, are you involved in this? Do you know these people?"

Good Citizen replies, "No officer Law, I don't know these people. My friends and I are just having a meal."

Johnny Law, "Very well then have a nice evening!" Then Johnny law goes about his business and Good Citizen does the same.

Elza said

I fully believe that there is only one reason some cops are twitchy about citizens with guns. It goes against their personal agenda/ego. “Only cops should have guns” or “Only cops should provide protection” are the ones that come readily to mind.

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I would tend to agree with this, given the OP's original statement of the scenario.

Eric F said,

IF you dont like that idea then you can always stand there and argue with the officer until you totally piss him off then get arested for some sort of minor offence like disturbing the peace.

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Now there is the attitude! Be a good little citizen and just submit and comply! Then maybe you won't totally piss him off and get arrested for...well, he'll think of something.

Sounds like a good way to cost your self more time being lectured.

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"Officer, am I free to leave?"

If the answer is "yes", I go about my business.

If the answer is "no", lawyers get involved.

If you want to "lecture" me about my lawful activities at gunpoint, know that there will be consequences that go FAR beyond letters of complaint. And don't whine about your family. If you don't care about them, why should I? Enjoy explaining to your kids why they eat ramen for dinner every night and why there won't be any presents for Christmas. Video it and put it on YouTube. It'll be a hoot.

It does NOT matter if the officer is not 100% correct. During the contact is NOT the time to resolve the accuracy of his comments.

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No, that's PRECISELY the time to at least determine their accuracy.

If he starts talking smack that indicates that he either doesn't know the law or that he plans to VIOLATE it, he gets "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is "no", I refuse consent to ANYTHING and refuse to speak without a lawyer present and things go downhill from there. I'm perfectly willing to be falsely arrested and spend a night in jail, if he's willing to have me take a dump on his career and make sure that he can't sell his house without the money going to creditors (me) instead of him. I don't have any more interest in his personal problems than he has in mine. If he's got a "hard job", it's pretty dumb of him to needlessly make it harder, isn't it? I'll go after him with everything I've got, just like he and the prosecutor would go after me if I took a swing at him. I hope he enjoys it.

it was reasionable for the officer to inquire if your friend was involved in said disturbance. I never had a problem with a LEO, nor seen anyone have trouble with a LEO who treated them politely. Yes Sirs and No sirs (or yes officer X or nn officer X)

If A officer wanted to lecture me, I would wait till he paused for a second (so he was not interrupted) then ask the "am I free to leave now Officer X?"

Those who try to make waves with officers get rocked, while those who are following the law and are polite at most just get a warning.

Those who try to make waves with officers get rocked, while those who are following the law and are polite at most just get a warning.

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This isn't about politeness or warnings. It's about cops who either don't know or don't respect the law making things up.

I'm perfectly willing to answer reasonable questions REQUIRED BY LAW, and a little bit beyond. I am UTTERLY unwilling to be lectured by someone who has no idea what he's talking about, or worse, to be unlawfully threatened by someone for engaging in totally lawful activity. Do either one and I invoke my rights then and there. Go ahead and falsely arrest me. I won't resist. But that's the day your life changes forever.

Now there is the attitude! Be a good little citizen and just submit and comply! Then maybe you won't totally piss him off and get arrested for...well, he'll think of something.

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Lets see hers an attitude! Stand there and argue get arrested sit in a holding cell for an hour or two while possibly car gets impounded then spens another 2 hours getting it out oh yeah now pay for a cab or wait for a ride to resume your life.........and what did you get in the end if not charged? 4-8 hours of your life waisted. And thats if you never got charged, now if you did get charged you get to waist say 2 hours in court for an areignment and another 2-6 hours for your case to be heard, then the sentence if found guilty.................hey its your time I guess you would like to deal with all the hassel.

I want to spend my time doing what I want to do. Oh and if its that important I spend an hour writing a letter and sending it up the chain.

so in summery 0-1 hour of waisted time for me
for your trouble 2-16 hours of waisted time with out a sentence from the court.........hmm

I'm perfectly willing to answer reasonable questions REQUIRED BY LAW, and a little bit beyond. I am UTTERLY unwilling to be lectured by someone who has no idea what he's talking about, or worse, to be unlawfully threatened by someone for engaging in totally lawful activity. Do either one and I invoke my rights then and there. Go ahead and falsely arrest me. I won't resist. But that's the day your life changes forever.

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I agree however there are ways to go about protesting/resisting this and being polite and listening to the officer for 5 minutes and saying ok once or twice then go do what you want to do, beets being held up for hours for arguing with a guy that has no clue. Report the officer later.

Deanimator, I am not saying if somone was stupid enough to arrest you in VA for open carry that you should not sue. (and don't resist)

Just that I have seen it many times, those that are polite, even if they disagree with the officer, and politely disagree, that they don't have problems with officers.

Those who come in with a chip when talking to a officer get "picked on" a lot more then a polite non-LEO who gets a few questions from officers.

The only reason why I don't open carry more often is that under NC law if your shirt tail covers the gun, you can be arrested for conceal carry, and if you don't have a permit for Conceal carry is a major violation under NC law.

of course, VA is just 15 mins away and I might need to go to eatery with my Model 15 or BHP to my side.

Just that I have seen it many times, those that are polite, even if they disagree with the officer, and politely disagree, that they don't have problems with officers.

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I'm polite [but not particularly friendly] to everyone, at least until they indicate that they don't deserve that politeness. I'm a student of Japanese culture. I can be perfectly polite to you while leaving no doubt that I think your mother shouldn't have mated with a sibling.

I don't expect breaks when I do something wrong. I don't react well to bullying when I don't.

anyone miss the forest for this little tree?

"Because the Second Amendment does not apply to the states, neither a state law nor a local ordinance can run afoul of
any right guaranteed by the Second Amendment."

Uh I thought the bill of rights could be run afoul of at any governmental level... What kind of semi-retarded idiocracy is this *@#$???

It is a right of an individual. It was written into the constitution so the states WOULD ratify said constitution. It gave certain things to the people not to the governement. Said government then removes right in DIRECT VIOLATION of BOR... I mean did anyone else read this buffon's position?

Lets replace 2nd amendment with the first in his "opinion"... see if it still flies

"I'd like to answer your questions officer but the attorney I have on retainer told me very specifically what to say in this situation. May I call him?"

deaconkharma said:

"Because the Second Amendment does not apply to the states, neither a state law nor a local ordinance can run afoul of
any right guaranteed by the Second Amendment."

Uh I thought the bill of rights could be run afoul of at any governmental level... What kind of semi-retarded idiocracy is this *@#$???

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I was wondering about that too. So based on what the federal judge said, the 2nd Amendment applies only to the federal government. In other words, every state in the union could make firearms completely illegal under state law and that would not violate the 2nd Amendment?

If that's true, why are all these towns and cities across the country told they can't have certain Christmas decorations on the basis that doing so violates the 1st Amendment? If the 1st Amendment is held to restrict the government's power at all levels, why not the 2nd?

I was wondering about that too. So based on what the federal judge said, the 2nd Amendment applies only to the federal government. In other words, every state in the union could make firearms completely illegal under state law and that would not violate the 2nd Amendment?

If that's true, why are all these towns and cities across the country told they can't have certain Christmas decorations on the basis that doing so violates the 1st Amendment? If the 1st Amendment is held to restrict the government's power at all levels, why not the 2nd?

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Unlike the 1st Amendment, the 2nd has not YET been formally "incorporated" via the 14th. The 1st applies to the states but not the 2nd... YET.

Have no fear, that's coming in the Heller followups, Chicago in particular. The next couple of years are going to be very sad ones for anti-gunners and Heller paved the way.