DSA SA58 11" vs 13" vs 16.25"

Can't speak for a specific change in ballistics, but the muzzle blast & fireball that comes out of the 16" is pretty intense.... Would imagine any tube shorter than that would be much more intense even with a quality muzzle brake or flash hider.

Imho, and at the risk of getting flamed, while fun and all, messing around with NFA stuff seems more trouble & expense than it's worth. But again... that's just my opinion. I prefer to get my kicks at +1000 yards!

If you want a 16 inch (or shorter) .308, buy an AK...



Forrest

You're losing at least a hundred feet per second with the shorter barrels (probably more like 150 fps for 13" and 250 fps for the 11"). Having already given up a good deal of velocity going from a standard 21-22" sort of .308 battle rifle barrel to the 16" carbine format.

Can't verify, but one was it was described in one of the gun rags which had an article on the DSA super shorties basically said the 11-13" carbines are still flinging .308 with power levels comparable to an AK pushing 7.62x39.

Not, necessarily, a bad thing, but there are more efficient ways to get 7.62x39 kind of performance (like, for instance, an AK . . .). Depends a lot on what you want the FAL in question to do, though. If you're wanting a FAL CQC gun, I'd say it works (though recoil and blast may make you slower on a clock than a guy with an assault rifle or a longer barreled 7.62x51 gun). If you're wanting even a 0-300 generalist kind of gun, I don't know that barrel length is the right choice.

To my thinking, 16.25" is about as short as I care to go with a full-power cartridge. I like how SBR uppers on M4s handle (ditto AKSU-74s and HK53s), but don't think it works as well with something like .308.

The shortest I recall ever seeing chrono data for a 7.62mm battle rifle is the 16" barreled DSA Para Tactical Carbine I read about a while ago when it was still relatively new. IIRC, they said they were getting about 2500 fps from a standard 147 gr FMJ ball load. That is still a good 300 to 400 fps faster than an AK is going to do with a similar weight projectile from the same length barrel, and even beats the ballistics of the standard 125 gr bullet @ 2350 fps by a good 150 fps or more.

The .308 is a pretty efficient cartridge. But it has its limits. I wouldn't mind taking it down to 16 inches, but anything under that I think is going to amount to exponentially more flash and blast than I care to deal with.

I have a Saiga .308 with a 16" barrel. It doesn't have any muzzle brake or hider on it, but it is very very loud, with a healthy kick to it. I can't imagine what would happen if I ever used it without earplugs.. I am pretty sure it would be painful. Just my $.02, but it seems that going to such a short barrel(11" or 13") might be using .308 for something that might be better suited to another round. At 16" inches it is about as loud and ornery as I think I'd want to go.

The best in your case would be 16". However, I am a big fan of 18" FALs.

Plus one for the 18" Para fal

Don't go shorter than 16.0".

I have an HK G3K clone (semi-auto), with a 12" barrel.

The muzzle blast has to be seen to be believed. It is like a flash/bang grenade went off. I saw a real G3K being fired at Knob Creek. At the same time, several 50 BMGs were being fired along with all kinds of belt fed machineguns. The HK clearly stood out from everything else on the line with the muzzle blast and obvious overpressure wave coming off it.
Short barrels with .308 are in a league by themselves.

+1. A fighting .308 should be 20" or 22". Going below 16 intentionally is bordering on insanity.

The smallest I'd go is 16". Even 20" .308 battle rifles have a lot of blast and flash, I can't imagine it out of an 11" barrel.

I always hear about the flash/bang of the short barrelled 308s, bang, yes, there's more of it, and can be a pressure wave to boot. If I had to shoot mine indoors, I'd definitely want the can on.

The flash is a different story.

When I first got my 51 in from Vector, we went out at night to see if all the things I'd heard for years was true about the flash.

With stock HK flashhider, the results were...unspectacular. Firing semi-auto rapid fire, I couldn't believe the lack of fireball that all the NFA guys had promised me.

A friend ran my digital camera in movie mode and stills, the biggest flash I was able to pull from the movie was on par with a M16 with an AR flashhider.



That's as big as the flash got. SA ammo, high 20s or low 30s outside.

Back to the original topic at hand...well, in a FAL I'd probably go with the 13" to have more available gas pressure for ammo variance/dirty weapon etc.

Yes, you'll lose ballistically. How much is something you'd have to chrono for accuracy. I can hit things at 300-400m (the max distance I shoot regularly) with a V51 and a 8.5" barrel I can't begin to touch with an AK. Yes, the sights are better. Yes, I put a better scope on the 51 v AK if I want glass. Yes, my trigger is probably better.

It comes down to you and the weapon system - are you happy with the FAL? Do you want it as short as it can get and still be a FAL? If so, go shopping.

We have a review on the web site with some velocity info:

http://www.dsarms.com/pdf/BattleRiflePunch.pdf

Mr. Fortier reports a 400 fps velocity drop on the 11" gun. I would say in most cases you will still be above 7.62x39 velocity, with a heavier bullet than your typical 7.62x39 load depending on your ammo choice. You might find that article interesting as it covers the OSW quite well. My opinion is that if you are only going to have one FAL, get an 18" gun. It is a great compromise length, in between the 16.25" barrel and the 21". If you have the need for a more conventional length gun covered, the 11" is a lot of fun and a very handy package.

Hope that helps you, and please email if you have any further questions!

John

Besides the extreme drop in muzzle velocity, you will also incurr a significant loss of accuracy.

There is nothing wrong with a Rifleman shooting a real rifle.
A real rifle cartridge does not do well in a sub-gun size firearm.

I also had a 16 inch .308 saiga and shooting it was uhhh brisk. I wouldn't go any shorter unless you have a high threshold for discomfort.

When I get my DSA FAL it'll have the 21 inch barrel. I have a 16.25" and a 22" M1A and I prefer the full length one.

Besides the extreme drop in muzzle velocity, you will also incurr a significant loss of accuracy.

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PDF linked had the FAL at its normal accuracy range in a good gun, 1-2" groups. That jives with the 13" DSA I've shot, and on par with my Vectors if I do my part and don't feed it surplus stuff. Interestingly, it's aso on par with a good example of most fullsize battle rifles in service configuration. With surplus/issue type ammo, you're looking at 2-4 MOA firearms generally, and they seem to stay that way in the short configurations.

Barrel length <> accuracy. Look at the Contenders.

There is nothing wrong with a Rifleman shooting a real rifle.

Click to expand...

Yes, SBRs are 'fake' rifles, honest ;0

A real rifle cartridge does not do well in a sub-gun size firearm.

Click to expand...

That's one of the great myths espoused by those who have not learned to shoot them.

I personally applaud DSA for developing the concept, if I didn't love my FALs as they were I'd have ordered one long ago. That and I can go shooting with one pretty much whenever I want anyway if I drag a friend.

I've always thought that SBR was a dumb way of achieving compactness.

Cutting the barrel reduces the effectiveness of the round.
It is tough to distort reality and argue the opposite.

A better way is to achive compactness is use a bullpup:



One of those is a $200 tax stamp, the other is a title-1 gun with a 16" barrel.
(they're both shorter than a 10" barreled AR15).

-T

You can't chop it down to 9"?

Cutting the barrel reduces the effectiveness of the round.

Click to expand...

And it's dependent on the level of performance maintained. In a AK-sized platform, you get bigger bullets, wider range of loading options, better sights and accessories, etc. on both the short FAL and short HK-based weapons. As an added bonus, it does not have the 'bad guy' profile of a shooter with an AK. You retain the .30 bullet if that's a plus for you over the .223 as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't intend on taking 600-800m shots with my SBRs. Different weapons for different things, even at range use. It's not like you're limited to only owning one. ;0

The problem with the bullpup option is (a) there isn't one in .308 (save the industry demo only Keltec), (b) slow magazine changes, (c) bullpup trigger - even the FN2k isn't exactly smooth, (d) horrid manual of arms for malfunction clearing compared to a conventional rifle.

You can't chop it down to 9"?

Click to expand...

On a FAL, my understanding is no - I remember seeing the bent piston effect on some of the Azex experiments on the Falfiles.

I've got about a dozen different full power 30 caliber rifles, (4 .308's), with barrel lengths ranging from 16" to 29" and 16" is about as short as I'd want to go with them. Even at 16" you get a lot of muzzle flash, but smart reloading can make it tolerable. The velocity tends to drop off rapidly too when you go shorter than 16". You've already lost about 250 fps with that 16" barrel as compared to one of 26 inches. You lose about another 250 fps going from 16" down to 11". At that point you're shooting bullets at about the same velocity as a 16" barreled AK and ballistically your only advantage is that the .308 bullets weigh more.

If I were going to go with a very short barreled .308, I'd look into handloading with the fastest powders the gun could safely handle.

Barrel length <> accuracy. Look at the Contenders.


Quote:
There is nothing wrong with a Rifleman shooting a real rifle.

Yes, SBRs are 'fake' rifles, honest ;0


Quote:
A real rifle cartridge does not do well in a sub-gun size firearm.

That's one of the great myths espoused by those who have not learned to shoot them.



And here SBR used to mean Special Boat Squadron, or Sea Based Radar.



When my troops had to convert from the M16A2, to the M4 carbine version, the standard qualification score dropped across the board. As did the terminal effectiveness. While some may then argue that the gee whiz Aim Point sight should have made up for the sudden lack of sight radius, it did not. Not the mention the constant problem with the darn batteries.
It does work better in uban areas as long as you have a couple DMs as overwatch with real rifles.
Of course that was using the 5.56mm nato round which is an intermediate round and not what I consider a true rifle caliber. Just as is the 7.62 x39MM. Particularly when the 7.62x39 is fired from a short barrel combined with the super short sight radius of the standard AK carbines.
Engaging hostiles between 200 to 600 meters with effective aimed fire is the job of the rifleman, (when a real rifle is employed or available, thank you very flipping much Joint Chiefs) Sub Guns and carbines are fine and probably better from the 50 to 200 meter range. My 100 meter groups using my issued M-9 pistol (standing) were often similar in size to the AK-47 groups being obtained by the theater specific indigenious personnel, along with most of us who shot along with them.

While rather short ranged, they did look cool for all the young guys to pose with during photo time.


BUT this is off subject since the original question revolved around an FN platform in 7.62 NATO.