What is the purpose of the Militia?

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driftpin

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What is the definition of a Militia and what is its purpose as it stands today?

Was not the militias intent to be a protection to the people against a rogue government.

I know the militias were called at times to help fight but I thought I read that they were for the people.

I looked on Wiki and saw that there were several different State Militias like the Michigan Volunteer Defense Force. I read that these groups have to supply their own uniforms and equipment. Aren't these organizations supposed to be equipped with the same equipment of the regular services?
 
What is the definition of a Militia and what is its purpose as it stands today?
I am not sure anyone can really answer that question anymore. For the most part, the federal government did not want to rely on the militia system anymore, so created the national guard as its replacement.

Was not the militias intent to be a protection to the people against a rogue government.
There were several reasons for the militia. One was to reduce the need for a standing army, which had always been a problem. Another was to provide some means of local defense (against marauding Indian tribes for example). The standing army just could not be everywhere. It could also be used for law enforcement purposes as there were no police forces back then.

I know the militias were called at times to help fight but I thought I read that they were for the people.

I looked on Wiki and saw that there were several different State Militias like the Michigan Volunteer Defense Force. I read that these groups have to supply their own uniforms and equipment. Aren't these organizations supposed to be equipped with the same equipment of the regular services?
The constitution provides that congress is to determine just how the militia is to be equipped. AFAIK, the law pretty much leaves it up to the states these days. I think the last time the militia was called up was during the civil war. It turned out to be inconvenient to the federal government to call up the militia for foreign wars, so they set up the national guard system in its place.
 
The purpose of the militia is for the citizens to defend themselves, from individual to whole nation, when the governmental army can't, or won't, provide such defense.

A subset of the population (able-bodied males 17-45) is naturally expected to serve in the militia, and it is this group the Constitution specifically empowers Congress and the states to organize, train, and equip beyond the individual right of all individuals to train & equip him/herself.

It serves its purpose today as much as ever. The individual provides defense of their own 1/300,000,000th of the country. The homeowner defends his/her home and occupants/dependents thereof. Neighborhood residents can band together to defend the community. States may have their own voluntary formal militias. The Selective Service System provides for calling up all able-bodied males 17-45 into national defense should the military & National Guard be overwhelmed. None of these scenarios may be dismissed lightly, and the various levels of militia HAVE been called up, in modern times, on occasion (individual muggings, home invasions, natural disasters, states of emergency, major wars). That the individuals be able & competent to show up already armed is vital, as callup situations by their nature do not provide sufficent time to train with optimal equipment.

Whatever the opponent, the militia is ready to the tune of (at least theoretically) every citizen. "Enemies foreign and domestic" may be anything from a common thug to an invading nation to a rogue government - none of which can be casually discounted. We are a nation "of/by/for the people"; the people retain the power of military resistance.

Ideally, everyone SHOULD have access to whatever equipment is deemed appropriate by our formal military. Formal state militias should be armed akin to the national military. Individuals should own, at minimum (as modeled in the Militia Act of 1792 - look it up), an AR15*, 1000 rounds of M855, and related basic equipment (do you?), ready to serve on short notice if such equipment and familiarity cannot be procured under dire circumstances. Unfortunately, Congress has decided that military surplus must be destroyed rather than sold to citizens; it's up to you to find equivalent gear.

* - Really should be an M16. 922(o) has got to go, but that's another thread.
 
ctdonath said:
The purpose of the militia is for the citizens to defend themselves, from individual to whole nation, when the governmental army can't, or won't, provide such defense.
I'd have to second that purpose. It's the capable defending themselves and the unable(and the state) from any threat whatsoever it may be.
 
The purpose of the militia is for the citizens to defend themselves, from individual to whole nation, when the governmental army can't, or won't, provide such defense.

A subset of the population (able-bodied males 17-45) is naturally expected to serve in the militia, and it is this group the Constitution specifically empowers Congress and the states to organize, train, and equip beyond the individual right of all individuals to train & equip him/herself.

It serves its purpose today as much as ever. The individual provides defense of their own 1/300,000,000th of the country. The homeowner defends his/her home and occupants/dependents thereof. Neighborhood residents can band together to defend the community. States may have their own voluntary formal militias. The Selective Service System provides for calling up all able-bodied males 17-45 into national defense should the military & National Guard be overwhelmed. None of these scenarios may be dismissed lightly, and the various levels of militia HAVE been called up, in modern times, on occasion (individual muggings, home invasions, natural disasters, states of emergency, major wars). That the individuals be able & competent to show up already armed is vital, as callup situations by their nature do not provide sufficent time to train with optimal equipment.

Whatever the opponent, the militia is ready to the tune of (at least theoretically) every citizen. "Enemies foreign and domestic" may be anything from a common thug to an invading nation to a rogue government - none of which can be casually discounted. We are a nation "of/by/for the people"; the people retain the power of military resistance.

Ideally, everyone SHOULD have access to whatever equipment is deemed appropriate by our formal military. Formal state militias should be armed akin to the national military. Individuals should own, at minimum (as modeled in the Militia Act of 1792 - look it up), an AR15*, 1000 rounds of M855, and related basic equipment (do you?), ready to serve on short notice if such equipment and familiarity cannot be procured under dire circumstances. Unfortunately, Congress has decided that military surplus must be destroyed rather than sold to citizens; it's up to you to find equivalent gear.

* - Really should be an M16. 922(o) has got to go, but that's another thread.


That's a really good post. Agreed, and thank you.


.
 
The law concerning the militia is 10 USC section 311

"Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia."


Who is exempt?
"Section 312. Militia duty: exemptions

(a) The following persons are exempt from militia duty:
(1) The Vice President.
(2) The judicial and executive officers of the United States,
the several States and Territories, and Puerto Rico.
(3) Members of the armed forces, except members who are not on
active duty.
(4) Customhouse clerks.
(5) Persons employed by the United States in the transmission
of mail.
(6) Workmen employed in armories, arsenals, and naval shipyards
of the United States.
(7) Pilots on navigable waters.
(8) Mariners in the sea service of a citizen of, or a merchant
in, the United States.

(b) A person who claims exemption because of religious belief is
exempt from militia duty in a combatant capacity, if the
conscientious holding of that belief is established under such
regulations as the President may prescribe. However, such a person
is not exempt from militia duty that the President determines to be
noncombatant."
 
Was not the militias intent to be a protection to the people against a rogue government.

No, it was not. It was to provide a pool of persons to serve in times of need in defending the state and/or nation. This to be done under the control and authority of the state, not by citizens under their own authority. Keep in mind this was at a time when there was no large standing military establishment, such as we have today. Today, when needed, the federals can call on the NG, which is an organized state "militia," which can also be used by the state governments in times of emergency, such as civil unrest or natural disasters.

K
 
Kentak,
At the end of the first sentence in your reply add the words; against all enemies, foreign or domestic. A rouge government is a domestic enemy.
 
Unfortunately, Congress has decided that military surplus must be destroyed rather than sold to citizens; it's up to you to find equivalent gear.

Yup, a revolving door to government contracts and waste beyond belief... All at the taxpayers' (you and me) expense.

We should be allowed to buy M16s' and M4s direct. Along with S.A.W.S. !
 
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The founders were really against a 'standing army' because they felt it could be and often would eventualy be used by rulers to impose tryanny.
At the time the military of a nation was both the offensive and defensive forces used against foriegn nations as well as the federal LEO.
So they were not just speaking about the military, but what amounts to federal LEO today.

Since the military was the traditional force in many nations to provide that defense, they needed another solution. That solution was the militia, a concept that preceded them. The militia was all able bodied males (at a time when males were legaly different than females) that were not what was elderly at the time period.
There was militias for towns, militias for states, and a national definition of the militia.

If a town was attacked by a native raiding party or other armed forces they would all grab thier guns and assemble as a loose militia to provide for a common defense.
If a state was faced with a danger the able bodied men would assemble with thier own firearms to provide for a common defense.
They were not professionals, they were not employed as LEO or military. They were just every able bodied citizen coming together in times of need.

The founders felt that was ideal, because if a professional standing army (keep in mind they were the LEO too) existed it could be used against the people just as it could be used for the people. It left the option of authoritarian rule by force and intimidation available, and they were against that.

Then Shay's Rebellion happened. The common American did not assemble and defeat them as the founders envisioned. So most of the founders previously against a standing army in any way were at odds with thier ideology. Thier ideal situation just might not be strong enough.
That is why they assembled to form the Constitution. The perfect government under the Articles of Confederation was just too weak. It couldn't enforce taxes, had to request them, and it totaly depended on the American citizen to rise up against any threat, and sometimes they were not up to the task.


So they created the Bill of Rights to severely limit what the government could govern or infringe on. From that day forth the government would have a standing army at its disposal and they were very afraid of that because it could impose its will on the people.

So the government was never to infringe on the right to free speech, every citizen could discuss, or print anything they wished. They could not be in any way punished by the government for excercising thier right to talk about any topic they wished.

The government was also never to infringe on the citizens right to keep firearms, the final balance against the standing army, and the means with which citizens could assemble into loose militias for defense against any threat foriegn and domestic.

On it went, but those two are probably the most relevant to this board.
As we see today the standing army (now federal LEO) does impose its will, and does infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. There is even a specific agency tasked with just that.

So it is important to know not just what militias were at the time, but what was included in thier view of a standing army. The standing army was both LEO and defender against foriegn forces.
So in modern context it would include government LEO agencies, as well as our military forces because in thier day the distinction between the two did not exist.

This was before WMDs existed, before governments had jet aircraft and precision munitions. When the force available to impose tyranny could in theory be held off by common citizens bearing arms. Essentialy so something like done by the Nazis or even our own government to the Japanese Americans could be effectively resisted.

As we see in places our forces are currently tasked with occupying, the concept still has some validity. Rag tag insurgents are holding off the most powerful military forces backed by the most powerful economy in the world. They of course are not grabbing thier muskets and marching down the street anymore as in the 1700s (good way to be destroyed by airpower and artillery), but using ambushes, explosives, RPGs, light machineguns, and long range powerful rifles.
All arms illegal for most Americans, except the long range powerful rifle, which of course they are currently attacking with legislation (BMG bans etc.)

So I don't think most of us Americans keep firearms for that purpose, we keep them for defense from criminals and for recreation. But that is the purpose for which arms are protected under the Constitution and why the government is forbidden from legislating against arms (infringing.)
The Magna Carta in England hundreds of years prior was similar, it was so the land barons (local rulers) could defend against the federal rulers (the King and his men) and protected the RKBA.
It was a source of inspiration for the founders to take the concept further and include all citizens.
 
You have to define "militia." Some here are going by the definition of organized militia. Others seem to have come up with a much broader definition that goes beyond the broadest unorganized militia statute.

There is no Constitutional right to form a militia or be part of a militia. There never was. Formal militias are creations of government and are defined by code. Of course you can call a lot of other extralegal groups "militias," but that changes the meaning of the term. We have to decide what we're talking about before we determine its purpose.
 
This was before WMDs existed, before governments had jet aircraft and precision munitions
Yep, today if America didn't have a standing army, we'd be ruled by China.


As we see in places our forces are currently tasked with occupying, the concept still has some validity. Rag tag insurgents are holding off the most powerful military forces backed by the most powerful economy in the world.
Thanks to our latest strategy and our brave men and women serving there, that's no longer the case. Insurgent casualtys are massive, in an article dating back from 2004 or so, even back then the kill ratio was 7-1.

U.S. casualtys are way down, and conditions are improving enough to warrant troop withdrawals.(I'm not trying to go political, I'm pointing out that this insurgent type of thing hasn't worked.) The U.S. isn't even a tyrrany, a tyrrany could probably supress them much better.


But that is the purpose for which arms are protected under the Constitution
I dissagree, I feel guns are a right themselves. Hunting may not be as important as it was back then, but self-defense is still a very valid concern.
 
Back in the day of militias and Napoleon-esque armies, there really was not that much of a difference between a professional soldier and a militiaman. A militiaman could be drilled and trained to fight standing in a line with a musket in a few weeks. So militias were still pretty effective against regular armies. Not as good, but pretty decent.

Now, the level of tech armies have an their disposal requires most soldiers to be trained for months if not years to be effective. You really can't take a handful of local volunteers and train them on a MRLS or Paladin artillery piece. The use of specialized vehicles alone requires an entire infrastructure of mechanics and training to operate them. And even in the past, navies were still mostly operated by professional militaries. No local volunteer is going to be able to learn how to operate an Aegis cruiser or how to launch and control a UAV. And that brings up air-power, which plays a huge part in modern warfare.

When the whole world was using a variety of muskets, some swords and cannon, it was not hard to train everyday people to use and fight with them. Now there is just too much tech stuff for anyone but a specially trained operator with months of training and experience to use properly. A pickup truck filled with guys with AR15s is not going to stand up to a F22 with GPS guided bombs.


The only use a militia might have is in unconventional warfare; IEDs and sniping.
 
Back in the day of militias and Napoleon-esque armies, there really was not that much of a difference between a professional soldier and a militiaman. A militiaman could be drilled and trained to fight standing in a line with a musket in a few weeks. So militias were still pretty effective against regular armies. Not as good, but pretty decent.
Exactly, and that is why guns made men equal.

Prior to firearms it took years of disciplined training to master the martials arts of the Knights. They started training as young boys which continued into thier 20s on various moves, counters to moves, many different weapons etc. In fantasy a lot is heavily simplified for our enjoyment, but the education and training behind real fighting Knights/Samurai or whatever they were called in the local society was intense. They became the equal of blackbelts in several martial arts and with several different fighting styles and weapons.

Contrast that with the average peasant, who spent most waking hours in labor toiling. Even if they wanted to rise up or got ahold of the weapons of the day they were absolutely no match for thier rulers enforcers who dedicated thier lives to combat training.

When guns, and to a lesser extent powerful crossbows before them came onto the scene it changed the balance. That is why crossbows were outlawed in many places even before guns became common. A longbowman took years of training to perfect thier art, but anyone could pick up a crossbow and shoot a heavy bolt through the armor of a highly skilled knight that took over a decade of training to create.
With firearms commonplace suddenly an average person with a few weeks or months training was a match for a Knight. That meant training Knights for years was no longer effecient, cost effective etc and that thier worth was much less.
Conscripted armies became the norm, as in the times of Napoleon which you reference.

Men were more or less equal, though some with more training had an advantage it was not an advantage that tooks years of training to overcome.

Militaries now have advanced considerably and are once again bringing people back into the times of Knights. When operation and ownership of the most formidable weapons are specialties, and held primarily by governments and a ruling class.

So while you may hear statements like the six shooter made all men equal, the atom bomb and jet fighter once again made them peasants. Peasants with a vote for red or blue, but still peasants.

Yep, today if America didn't have a standing army, we'd be ruled by China.
A capable modern standing army is certainly a necessary evil today.

But that is the purpose for which arms are protected under the Constitution
I dissagree, I feel guns are a right themselves.
Granted, but that is not why they are protected by the constitution. That was considered a basic thing at the time not even necessary to state. The ability to retain defense against a ruler was a radical perspective, as radical as it was in the Magna Carta, and that was necessary for them to state as it was not a right that existed in most of the world (defense against common criminals was normal in the world at the time). So that is why arms were protected as something the government could not regulate and infringe on.
So even if it is not the reason most of us defend that right, it is why that right was included in the Bill of Rights.
 
It was to provide a pool of persons to serve in times of need in defending the state and/or nation. This to be done under the control and authority of the state, not by citizens under their own authority.

And yet there is the right to alter or abolish government. While an individual has no right to decide that government has gone too far and to result to force (terrorism) to bend government to his personal will, the people of each State have a collective right, under their own authority, to alter/abolish their government and .... how does the VA Declaration of Rights put it ...

"a majority of the community hath an indubitable, inalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish [government], in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the public weal."
 
I'm sure part of the suspicion of a standing army was the danger that such an army would become a political power unto itself, thus threatening the constitutional democratic authority. Hence, our insistence on civilian control of the armed forces. This continues to be a factor even today in some parts of the world.

Does anyone remember the McArthur/Truman power struggle over the course of the Korean Conflict? Regardless of how you feel about the way that war was conducted, McArthur came close to seizing control of foreign policy in that area.

K

K
 
A pickup truck filled with guys with AR15s is not going to stand up to a F22 with GPS guided bombs.

This is the old myth, but it's been exploded (in both senses) over and over again in the past half century. Guys in technicals blasted our elite troops out of Somalia. Guys in trucks and mule wagons are giving the modern military enormous troubles in Afghanistan and Iraq. Little guys in the jungle ultimately outlasted our military in Vietnam.

Why it keeps getting repeated after all the experiences to the contrary is beyond me. Obviously one high-tech weapons system can destroy a bunch of guys in a truck from far away. But it does so at mind-boggling cost. A guy and a rifle are cheap. Rinse and repeat enough and the more advanced military will spend itself to death and be forced to leave. You should expect to see this in Iraq and Afghanistan any day now, esp. with the recent financial meltdown.

U.S. casualtys are way down, and conditions are improving enough to warrant troop withdrawals.(I'm not trying to go political, I'm pointing out that this insurgent type of thing hasn't worked.)

Yes it has, since we are indeed going to leave and they are indeed going to waltz right in and take over when we do. Victory is being the last man standing in the field. The Taliban and insurgents will be there when we are gone.
 
I'm sure part of the suspicion of a standing army was the danger that such an army would become a political power unto itself, thus threatening the constitutional democratic authority. Hence, our insistence on civilian control of the armed forces. This continues to be a factor even today in some parts of the world.
Even in our own government. Keep in mind there is many individuals that are in positions of power for thier entire lifetime careers. To simplify it, people in the positions in the pentagon may be in power for 20+ years, while the longest a president will be in power for is 8 years.
So there is little incentive for many in long term career positions of power to share certain information with individuals that come and go and could 'negatively' effect things.
The politicians come and they go, and they make decisions based on thier advisors, but some of the people advising and briefing the people that brief the advisors are in power for generations.

Politics and power struggles are not as simple as our political process makes it appear on the surface.
Some of the owners of the Federal Reserve and financial backers are in place for most of thier lives, and who controls the source of the funds has an awful lot of say. Some of those people are foriegners.

The people in various positions in intelligence agencies hold a lot of influence, and are often in power for many more years than most politicians. The same intelligence agencies that prepare briefs and are the eyes and ears the politicians make decisions based on.
The top guy may be replaced or appointed, but many others rarely change.

There is many competing entities in the power struggle. Some of the politicians that get the praise or blame for many things are not as firmly in control of everything as you may believe. It is a continualy shifting game of power. Alliances are formed and dissolved and things are ever changing.
All you need to worry about though is red or blue. Which one do you dislike less?
Red or blue.
 
To get back to the question originally posted, I will recall a promise I made over 50 years ago (being Quaker, I don't vow.)

"To protect self, family, community, the State of (fillinblank) and The United States of America."

Pops
 
Thanks for all the great feedback. I had always thought that the Militia had been kept to protect the people from rogue government.

Why it keeps getting repeated after all the experiences to the contrary is beyond me.

This happens because the average stay of an infantry officer in Vietnam was a year at the most. The VC didn't have tours, they just fought and learned our tactics from us. Every time a new Officer came in he had to get up to speed on the Charlie's tactics.

I have been truly impressed with the Marine and Soldiers in the removing the Taliban and on OEF. Many of these Marines and soldiers are doing back to back tours with only a few weeks R&R in between by choice. I am proud of the Marines and the Army Soldiers and the Spec-Ops communities for stepping up and sticking in there. Not discounting the Naval aviators or sailors any or airmen, I am proud of them too.

Yes it has, since we are indeed going to leave and they are indeed going to waltz right in and take over when we do. Victory is being the last man standing in the field. The Taliban and insurgents will be there when we are gone.

This is because the Muslims are breeding at a rate of over 5.5 children per woman.

Many European countries are actually below the level of ever being able to pull out of the downward spiral of their own extinction. Many under 1.5

The USA is barely holding on replenishing our dead at a whopping 2.3

The overpopulation (environmentalist) argument and the anti-family liberals people have really doomed us.

I just finished reading a great book that speaks about this very thing.

America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It.
by Mark Steyn

Great book but it spells out a dreary time for the US and the rest of the world by 2050. It's doubtful I'll make it that long but that's up to the Lord to decide.

Sorry for going of topic.
 
This is the old myth, but it's been exploded (in both senses) over and over again in the past half century. Guys in technicals blasted our elite troops out of Somalia. Guys in trucks and mule wagons are giving the modern military enormous troubles in Afghanistan and Iraq. Little guys in the jungle ultimately outlasted our military in Vietnam.

Why it keeps getting repeated after all the experiences to the contrary is beyond me. Obviously one high-tech weapons system can destroy a bunch of guys in a truck from far away. But it does so at mind-boggling cost. A guy and a rifle are cheap. Rinse and repeat enough and the more advanced military will spend itself to death and be forced to leave. You should expect to see this in Iraq and Afghanistan any day now, esp. with the recent financial meltdown

In one battle in Mogadishu alone, the casualtys for the somalians are estimated to be up to 10,000. Compare that to U.S. casualtys for the same battle.


As for Iraq, when we leave, we'll have to see how the Iraqi security forces handle things.

And in Vietnam, weren't we actually prevented from going too far in to Vietnam?

In any case, if we fought these like a more major war, like we fought WW2, I believe we we would have won.

I believe if the U.S. were invaded today, a militia to supplement the armed forces would be a good thing.
But it would be very hard for such a thing to succeed all on it's own, short of relying on the enemy to say "this costs too much".
 
In one battle in Mogadishu alone, the casualtys for the somalians are estimated to be up to 10,000. Compare that to U.S. casualtys for the same battle.

Yeah, but who owned the turf at the end of the day? That's the limitations of high tech. You can win a fight but not a war with it.

Turning to a hypothetical domestic rebellion, by applying overwhelming high-tech force, the military would kill some people but enrage many more. It would also serve to unmask the tyranny by showing the display of outrageous force absent any rule of law or due process. I would go so far as to say that a rebellion overthrowing the a hypothetical American tyranny would be easier now than it was in the 19th century or 18th century. The only way to win the war for the state would destroy any support and sour the nation. It would also be extremely costly.
 
it would take something drastic happening for a large part of the american people to get their heads out of the sand. a state(as in the actual state government not individuals) can still legally have a militia that is solely under the command of the governor and can not be commanded by the federal government, but they will get no federal funding for it. there are some states that actually have these forces, but generally the people in them are volunteers since the states don't receive federal funding for them and dont want to pay either.
california is one state with these units
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Military_Reserve
and also texas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Guard

apparently nevada is suppose to have one also but for the life of me i cant seem to find anything on it.
 
And in Vietnam, weren't we actually prevented from going too far in to Vietnam?

In any case, if we fought these like a more major war, like we fought WW2, I believe we we would have won.
The reason we lost in Vietman was our tactics were the same as in WWII. The VC didn't care whether we took hill 273 and held it. This just gave them a place too come in and attack us in the middle of the night. The morale was also very low as well. It wasn't like things are now. You didn't walk in parades with your ribbons and have people thanking you. The freaking anti war protesters would just assume to spit in your face. I am reminded of these people when I saw the protesters at the RNC. Same people different era.
 
In reference to the words/language use changes: National Guard vs National Army.

My Grandfather's military papers use the words inducted into the national army. This was in 1917 for WWI.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the phrase National Guard hadn't come along yet. The US Gov't was building an army to go fight in WWI. We were not supposed to have a large standing army. State militia system was to take care of that, but it was slow to respond in the 45 years previous to WWI. I think the state militia system still has merits over a large standing army and gives more time to think and debates to take place before we go to war.
 
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