The son of a felon

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Vermont

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I am considering take the 11 yr old son of a convicted felon shooting with me.

His father would not be with us and would not touch any of the guns.

Are there any legal issues that I might run into? For example:

Children under 16 cannot possess a handgun without their parents's consent. Can someone who cannot legally possess a gun give permission for their child to possess one?
 
I would consult a local lawyer about this, maybe through the local chapter of the NRA.
Any legal advice you get on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it.
 
Any legal advice you get on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it.

This is true. I won't rely on it, but I'm interested to know what people have to say.
 
Vermont said:
Children under 16 cannot possess a handgun without their parents's consent. Can someone who cannot legally possess a gun give permission for their child to possess one?

After some thought, I don't think one has anything to do with the other. He lost his right to own/handle firearms, but not his right to parent his child, eh?

I think it's a non-issue.


-T.
 
After some thought, I don't think one has anything to do with the other. He lost his right to own/handle firearms, but not his right to parent his child, eh?

I think it's a non-issue.

I agree with Thernlund.
BTW,is his Mom living in Vermont?Could she OK the arrangements?
 
BTW,is his Mom living in Vermont?Could she OK the arrangements?

I don't know too much about his mom. She is in the state, but I have only met her once.
 
Consider what the father did, and what will his son may tell him. Do you trust him? Did he get some weird non-violent felony 30 years ago, or did he just get out of the pokey for manslaughter, and might like to know what you have in case he needs to steal one, or his cronies need one or three.
If his parental rights are still intact, he still has say over what his child does, so get written permission first.
Good luck!
 
"You should be fine, so long as the father is nowhere near the guns or the outing."

Agreed.
 
Another question would be, who has legal custody of the boy? The father, mother, or both? If the mother has sole legal custody you would have to have her permission - and best have it in writing.
 
Doesn't matter what parent gives consent regardless of who has custody because of how the law is written. Either one can. The law says parent. VT doesn't forbid felons from having firearms (federal law does obviously) so yes the father can give permission (as permission is a state issue). Don't have him near the guns.
 
It is, indeed, a federal issue. Get your written permission for him to accompany you and for you to allow him to handle and shoot the guns from the un-encumbered one of the parents. Take particular notice of A ii.

http://iweb.tntech.edu/cpardue/youthnotice.html

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE
ATF 1 5300.2 (7-2004)

(1) The misuse of handguns is a leading contributor to juvenile violence and fatalities.
(2) Safely storing and securing firearms away from children will help prevent the unlawful possession of handguns by juveniles, stop accidents, and save lives.


(3) Federal law prohibits, except in certain limited circumstances, anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun, or any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under 18.

(4) A knowing violation of the prohibition against selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under the age of 18 is, under certain circumstances, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.


FEDERAL LAW


The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows:



18 U.S.C. 922(x)


(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile-

(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.


(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess-


(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.


(3) This subsection does not apply to-

(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile-


(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except-

(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or arming activities as described in clause


(i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;

(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which he juvenile is an invited guest.


(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)


(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.

(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).

(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.


18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6)

(6)(A)

(i) A juvenile who violates section 922(x) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, except that a juvenile described in clause
(ii) shall be sentenced to probation on appropriate conditions and shall not be incarcerated unless the juvenile fails to comply with a condition of probation.
(ii) A juvenile is described in this clause .if --


(I) the offense of which the juvenile is charged is possession of a handgun or ammunition in violation of section 922(x)(2); and
(II) the juvenile has not been convicted in any court of an offense (including an offense under section 922(x) or a similar State law, but not including any other offense consisting of conduct that if engaged in by an adult would not constitute an offense) or adjudicated as a juvenile delinquent for conduct that if engaged in by an adult would constitute an offense.


(B) A person other than a juvenile who knowingly violates section 922(x)-


(i) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than I year, or both; and
(ii) if the person sold, delivered, or otherwise transferred a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile knowing or having reasonable cause to know that the juvenile intended to carry or otherwise possess or discharge or otherwise use the handgun or ammunition in the commission of a crime of violence, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

If you have any questions, contact:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20226

Phone: (202)927-7770 OR

Visit our web site at www.atf.treas.gov

It gets a little murky, as a subsequent paragraph does not have the caveat of parent who is not prohibited.

Pops
 
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Good post, armedandsafe, it looks like you are correct to me. The felon father would not be able to give permission for the son... how wrong is that, but it's the federal law.
 
NavyLT said:
The felon father would not be able to give permission for the son...

Eh? That's not how I read it. Trimmed down as per armedandsafe's bolding it says...

Federal law prohibits... ...anyone under 18 years of age from knowingly possessing a handgun... ...except with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited... ...by law from possessing a firearm, except... ...with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent... ...at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by... ...law from possessing a firearm.

I read that to say his father can give writen consent, but cannot take the boy shooting himself.


-T.
 
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as
described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a
handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the
juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of
an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local
law from possessing a firearm;

This applies only to ranching or farming activities. In this case, a felon parent may give permission, so long as the supervising adult is not a felon (or otherwise prohibitted).
 
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching
or farming related to activities at the residence of the
juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which
the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or
lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the
farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of
instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent
or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local
law from possessing a firearm,

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the
juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the
possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

The exception in (II) in the reply above does not apply to target shooting, so according to (ii) above, a non-felon parent or guardian must give permission for anything other than farming or ranching.
 
Not that I recommend breaking any laws, but I have a hard time seeing how taking a kid shooting will cause any legal problems in the first place. If dad were fine with it, then just who will raise a fuss? Again, don't something illegal, but I have had nephews go shooting without any written permission (verbal permission all day long, more than verbal, as I am going shooting and nephews ask if they can go, and then run to dad and plead, and dad says, "Have fun"). We don't stop and have him sign a document, have it witnessed and notarized. They have usually just shot 22's, but that does include a Colt Trooper Mk III in 22lr. I have never worried that I would be arrested for not having a signed paper. The thought never crossed my mind.

Ash
 
Maybe we'll just stick to rifles. I can't find any similar complications for rifles.

Thanks for the help everybody.
 
You should be fine, so long as the father is nowhere near the guns or the outing.
Why would the father being along on the outing make it not fine?

As for the rules quoted from the BATFE, it does not say target practice only for farming/ranching workers, target practice and hunting are lsited as different options under which a minor may carry.
 
Folks,

Some of you are confusing POSSESSION with USE.

Possession in regard to this statute means the ownership, control or exclusive use of a firearm, not the temporary supervised use of a firearm.
 
^^^ That's a good point.

But on a higher level, I doubt it will be an issue at all no matter how the law reads. Take the boy shooting and have a good time.


-T.
 
Jeez, just take the kid shooting and have a good time! I'm going to take the grandson's friend shooting with us, and the only problem his mom has with it, is she wants to come shooting too!
 
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