Dealing with Officers

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TwitchALot

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So as I was browsing the web, I came upon an interesting youtube video from the Ridley Report.

Though I doubt he was accosting children, we don't have all the background information. Nevertheless, in the end, officers were called in and they asked questions. Though I wouldn't have acted as "aggressively" toward the officers, what would be an appropriate way to deal with the situation and stay legally safe if someone calls the police on YOU (for whatever reason, assuming you are doing nothing illegal) and you are confronted in the public, as was the case here?

Should you strictly limit yourself to giving what you are required to by law and then asking if you are free to leave (I have a feeling a lot of people will just say this). What happens if they say no because they are questioning you because another citizen called in with a complaint (will they do this?)?

What questions should be answered, if any (excluding the ones you are legally required to, of course)? When the officer asked why he wasn't giving more information, would it be a good idea to say something along the lines of, "because anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law, officer, and it is my right to refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. Am I free to go" or just **** the whole time?

Is there a good way to be cooperative without incriminating yourself (please, we've already seen the "don't talk to the police" video a million times) in such a circumstance, or should you be as uncooperative as Dave was in refusing to answer questions? How could he have improved his response to the officers?

Should you present your side of the story at all (I was doing no such thing officer... etc.) or stick to the THR "officer I refuse to answer any questions without my attorney present" or something of that sort? What say you, THR?


What is a good way to stay safe, legally, in such a situation? Opinions from LEO's would also be very much appreciated.
 
ASSUMING you were doing nothing wrong, or are the wrong guy, etcetcetc, you should present your side of the story in a clear, concise, polite manner. The cops want to catch the Bad Guy, if there is one. They don't want to catch you, or muck around trying to make an arrest when no offense has been committed. They best way to make it clear that you are not the bad guy, or that no crime has been committed, is to tell them what is going on.

Imagine that you're a cop, and you have one guy alledging Aggravated Mopery on another guy, and when you talk to the other guy, he gets angry, evasive, and gives a name/rank/serial-number response. Sure, he may end up giving you nothing upon which to ultimately arrest him, but you certainly are going to be making sure that no potential witnesses haven't had a chance to ID him, that the complainant is sure that this guy is onvolved and what exactly this guy did, that his information is noted on the report as a potentially involved party, and, while you're doing all of this, that he has no outstanding wants/warrants. All of this spells time and inconvenience for the alleged criminal, and all of it is 100% professional and proper police work.

Now, the lawyers and THR civil-rights activists ( ;) ) will tell you to NEVER talk to the cops, to always give name/rank/serial-number and ask to leave. In the .01% of the time where you are innocent and aggressively saying nothing to the police saves you from being incorrectly arrested, this is great advice. OTOH, in the other 99.99% of instances, it is going to cause you more problems than it solves, up to and including a trip to jail if the other witnesses are adamant that you did something, willing to prosecute, and their version of events is plausible and unchallenged.

Remember, the police stop/detain the wrong people every day. I've done it several times in a shift. You want to let the wrong people go with minimum inconvenience and go catch the people who need to be caught. Which response best enables the cops to do that? "No, officer. I was just coming from the gas station. I didn't see anything" or "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DETAIN ME! I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG! MY NAME IS JOE SMITH! 123-45-6789! AM I FREE TO LEAVE NOW!?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Now, if you're being detained, you've been cooperative, and you feel it's time to go, there is nothing wrong with asking if you're free to leave. This makes the officer decide if you're under arrest, free to go, or if there is anthing else he needs to do before wrapping up your detention. It gets on record that you're not hanging out and chatting with the gendarmes of your own free will.

And, of course, if you were actually involved in something (like a defensive shooting), it behooves you to give a very basic overview of the event, politley decline to answer further questions without counsel, and SHUT UP.

Mike
 
Completely depends on the situation.

If I am involved in a self-defense shooting, I will state "I was afraid for my life." "I will not give an official statement without my attorney."

If it's something where I am a witness, it's going to be quick, concise, and delivered in a polite manner. ESPECIALLY where someone's life is in danger (i.e. Hit and run, etc.) or where the perpetrator is in a position to hurt someone else.
 
Been pulled over 5 times while carrying. Twice for me speeding, twice at a DUI checkpoint in a campus town, and once while a friend was speeding. No tickets any of the times. This is what's worked for me. 1: Don't break the law. The times I was breaking the law, like speeding, I didn't try to weasel my way out of it. Cops can tell when you've got a deceptive and combative attitude. That is a more sure way to get a ticket or more than the actual initial offense. So when I was speeding, I just admitted it. I also have the moral fiber to be OK with getting a ticket when I am in fact doing something wrong. But that's just me. 2: Be polite. Call them sir, officer, or Sargent if you recognize their rank. Don't do excessive talking and story telling. The ones who open up with a big story about why they were breaking whatever law they were breaking sound like they are trying to distract the police from the truth. That just makes you more suspicious. 3: Inform about CCW, even if not required. This shows that you are trying to be up front and honest from the get go. Again, it al goes back to appearance. If you are looking and acting deceptive, combative, or annoyed that you got pulled over or stopped, you're only bringing more harm on yourself.

Some people on THR believe that you should immediatly start asking things like "Am I under arrest?" "am I free to go?" I think that is not a wise move. It only makes you looks shifty, like you want to get out of there ASAP. And it sounds like you think the officer's decision to stop you was a bad one. They officer can probably sense the attitude behind this, and will probably respond with attitude of his own.


Basically it all boils down to: You'll probably get in return the attitude you give the officer. If it's polite and honest, he'll probably be polite and honest. If it's deceptive, suspicious, and confrontational, he'll probably treat you confrontationally.

EDIT: Coronach is right on. Cops want to catch real bad guys, and they don't want to waste time on you if you're not it. Contrary to popular belief, every traffic stop or arrest is followed by stack over paperwork. cops don't like unnecessary paperwork any more than you. Most cops don't enjoy hassling people just for the sake of hassling them, especially if the 5 minutes of power tripping is followed by 2 hours of incident reports and evidence logs. Also, my statements really only apply to traffic stops and the like. if something serious happened, like a defensive shooting, get a lawyer, and also maybe request to go to the hospital. This will give you time to calm your nerves and prevent you from doing or saying something rash. But lawyer up first. Have him meet you at the hospital. But request a lawyer first.
 
Once upon a time in my younger days, I was stopped by an Arizona Highway Patrol officer for driving really, really fast.

He said, "I was accelerating through 85 when you disappeared from sight. Just how fast were you going?"

I answered, "I don't think it is a good idea to answer that question."

He responded, "Fair enough. I wouldn't answer it either."

He cited me for 85 mph.

Pilgrim
 
Cops want to catch Micky Mope in the act of doing something illegal. Micky is the typical dirtbag loser that is doing a life sentence on "the prison installment plan." Micky always EARNS his "government sponsored vacations." Older cops don't care for charging most law abiding civilians who make an occasional MINOR mistake. They want that mule hauling dope around from Point A to Point B. They want the guy who breaks into your home to steal things. The guy who rapes, robs and murders innocent people. Sorting out the innocents from the scum can often be confusing and hard to do. It takes time and patience but it can be done. Just relax when you are around a cop, be courteous and don't make any fast moves. You start jacking with the wrong cop at the wrong time and you could end up looking upwards from the coroner's gurney saying to yourself, "Well, I think I'm having a bad day..." Cops have got to be defensive and on alert to survive situations of all sorts. Most of the time, when cops approach you they're going to see how you react and then make up their minds about you. If, however, you get a shiny rookie cop, don't be mad if he writes you a ticket or something. After all, rookies got to learn and sometimes that is a very slow process for some of them.
 
Quote: "And, of course, if you were actually involved in something (like a defensive shooting), it behooves you to give a very basic overview of the event, politley decline to answer further questions without counsel, and SHUT UP."

...could not have said it better myself

If you do have a gun for self-defense/home defense - you might wanna also contact a criminal lawyer so if the need ever arises you have someone to "call"... be prepared!

In our "world gone mad" society - you might wanna consider a larger liability insurance policy... even if your justified in shooting an intruder in self defense - thats no guarantee you won't be subejct to a civil action.

Bflobill_69
 
Officer, are you detaining me ( if yes see response A) or am I free to go ( if yes see response B)

A) I do not wish to make any statement or answer any questions W/ out my attorney present.

B) Thank you for your time officer. Have a nice day.
(Spoken over your shoulder as you leave the area)
 
The guy in the video was playing the part of the provocateur; a part which frequently entails, as seen in the video, testing those sworn to protect the rights of others by being an [bleep] to them.

Not interested in being a provocateur? Truly "neutral?" Conorach's advise sums it up nicely.
 
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Treo said:
B) Thank you for your time officer. Have a nice day.
(Spoken over your shoulder as you leave the area)
Click to expand...

If there is a natural break in the dialog (because I don't want to be rude), that's pretty much my SOP. Close the conversation and go on my way. I don't need permission. If I haven't been told I'm being detained, I assume I'm free to go... and go.

Respect the person, not the uniform. It can be worn by nice guys and jerks alike, and is no automatic indicator if deserving any respect.


-T.
 
Coronach said:
Now, the lawyers and THR civil-rights activists ( ) will tell you to NEVER talk to the cops, to always give name/rank/serial-number and ask to leave.
Click to expand...

No kidding...

Now, if you're being detained, you've been cooperative, and you feel it's time to go, there is nothing wrong with asking if you're free to leave. This makes the officer decide if you're under arrest, free to go, or if there is anthing else he needs to do before wrapping up your detention. It gets on record that you're not hanging out and chatting with the gendarmes of your own free will.
Click to expand...

First of all, to be clear, I'm not talking about a traffic stop or a defensive shooting (that goes to everyone). I'm talking about a situation where you are in public doing something (something not illegal mind you) and you are confronted by officers because someone else called them on you. Who knows why. Let's just say you're OCing in California LEGALLY. And, well, being California, you can probably guess how well that is going to work out, regardless of the fact that what you are doing is completely legal.


In several other incidents of OC, I believe he asked several times if he was free to go, and the officer asked another question or did not respond to the question. What then? Furthermore, suppose the guy did say something.

What should he have said, and how, exactly? "I was not harassing any children officer"? That won't look good if things go to court for whatever reason, will it, since "harass" is not exactly the most specific word out there and lawyers love that stuff? Although a stiff arm doesn't exactly seem to help the investigation (and understandably so), saying things also wouldn't seem to help you if you say something you shouldn't by accident or misspeak or you otherwise end up in court (even though again, you are doing nothing illegal). In the course of an investigation, an officer will try to determine if you are guilty or not, and if he thinks you are guilty, press for more, will he not? If you're nervous (not because you are guilty, but because you are being confronted by multiple officers) and he believes you are guilty, he'll escalate when you try to answer, no? What then?
 
Treo, there are times to use that approach. And there are times not to use that approach. I hope you can see that
Click to expand...

I can, but if I'm being questioned for anything bigger than a traffic stop ( assuming he doesn't want to search) I'm not saying a word W/out my lawyer present
 
TwitchALot said:
What should he have said, and how, exactly?
Click to expand...
I don't think there is a definitive answer. It all comes down to the nuances and intricacies of human interaction. He'll read you as best he can, you'll read him as best you can, and you'll both proceed as the situation dictates in the moment. Yeah? The variables are virtually limitless.


-T.
 
Rifleman 173

Older cops don't care for charging most law abiding civilians who make an occasional MINOR mistake. They want that mule hauling dope around from Point A to Point B. They want the guy who breaks into your home to steal things. The guy who rapes, robs and murders innocent people. Sorting out the innocents from the scum can often be confusing and hard to do. It takes time and patience but it can be done. Just relax when you are around a cop, be courteous and don't make any fast moves. Cops have got to be defensive and on alert to survive situations of all sorts. Most of the time, when cops approach you they're going to see how you react and then make up their minds about you. If, however, you get a shiny rookie cop, don't be mad if he writes you a ticket or something. After all, rookies got to learn and sometimes that is a very slow process for some of them.
Click to expand...

Well said Rifleman. I watch the "shiny rookie cops" where I work and I just shake my head. Talk about going blind from paperwork when it isn't necessary.
 
Coronach stated it best with the word "ASSUMING". The video that is linked is self serving for the poster, and the initial incident which spawned the "harassment" complaint against this lad is conveniently NOT recorded (he stated this in his version of the events leading up to the first police contact that day). Apparently he at least knows not to document self-incriminating activity while acting as a provocateur. Based on my observation of his behavior, and knowing that harassment is more subjective than objective, I find it extremely likely that he wound up doing something that could be percieved as "harassing"--regardless of how righteous he felt his cause was. The questions asked of him ("what" and "why" questions, not "were you involved") lead me to believe that he was specifically identified by the caller and this was not simply ploice responding and looking for "a guy".
As such I think that THIS situation may not be the best example of your question.

IF and ASSUMING (very critical qualifiers) you were simply walking down the street and were NOT involved in an act of provocation/trespassing/other criminal activity, answer honestly and concisely. Contrary to the beliefs of some of the "black helicopter" crowd, there is no grand conspiracy to lock up Joe Citizen "for no reason". I want to find the person involved in whatever was reported and not be tied up with someone who isn't doing anything wrong--the faster I can rule you out, the faster I can do this.

As an LEO, if I don't know who I'm looking for, see a person in the area that kind of fits a vague description and stop to ask him questions, one of the first things I'm looking for is general demeanor--a person responding or acting evasive nervous or unreasonably defensive raises red flags and will prolong the contact (he may not have been the person harassing the caller, but I may have just accidentally stumbled on someone who was about to break into a house or is dealing drugs). Your response of
"because anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law, officer, and it is my right to refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. Am I free to go"
Click to expand...
will raise BIG red flags that either: A) You ARE the person we were called about and you WERE up to no good; or B) You're doing something ELSE that is illegal. In either case, the contact will most likely be prolonged AND (again IF you weren't doing anything wrong) you're now keeping me from finding the person I'm actually looking for.

On the other hand, IF you want to act as a provocateur then stick with name/rank/serial number responses, request an attorney when asked for ID, start screaming "unlawful arrest" etc.; IF you HAVE been up to something, answer basic ID questions and invoke your rights when asked questions that might be incriminating (oops, forgot I'm LEO...I meant waive your rights, answer every question and confess freely to the crime you committed);)
 
will raise BIG red flags that either: A) You ARE the person we were called about and you WERE up to no good; or B) You're doing something ELSE that is illegal. In either case, the contact will most likely be prolonged
Click to expand...

There's a lot in this pargraph, I am really disturbed to hear a cop say that a citizen exercising their rights "sends up big red flags" and raises suspicion that I'm "up to no good"
That makes me think you really do want me to cave and say whatever it is you want me to say.

AND (again IF you weren't doing anything wrong) you're now keeping me from finding the person I'm actually looking for.
Click to expand...

But , with all due respect, that's really not my problem is it?
 
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that's really not my problem is it?"
isn't it? or are you not a part of society?
Click to expand...

I still see no valid reason not to exercise my rights. If your post contains such please point it out to me.
 
Scout said:
Coronach stated it best with the word "ASSUMING". The video that is linked is self serving for the poster,
Click to expand...

How is it "self serving," exactly?

and the initial incident which spawned the "harassment" complaint against this lad is conveniently NOT recorded (he stated this in his version of the events leading up to the first police contact that day). Apparently he at least knows not to document self-incriminating activity while acting as a provocateur. Based on my observation of his behavior, and knowing that harassment is more subjective than objective, I find it extremely likely that he wound up doing something that could be percieved as "harassing"--regardless of how righteous he felt his cause was. The questions asked of him ("what" and "why" questions, not "were you involved") lead me to believe that he was specifically identified by the caller and this was not simply ploice responding and looking for "a guy".
As such I think that THIS situation may not be the best example of your question.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not restricting anything to this encounter. I was only using it as an example because it gave the me the idea to ask the questions I'm asking now. I agree it's likely that he "harassed" someone, given the vague and broad nature of the term, but if that's the case, how could his response have been improved?

In that scenario, he MIGHT have done something illegal because the term is so vague. If a petitioner asks me twice to sign his petition, and I consider THAT harassment (once is enough, no?) and call the police, then what should the petitioner do when the police arrive? Technically, he could have done something illegal by "harassing" me, and his day could be rather unpleasant if he admits anything of the sort to the officers. What would a good response be in such a scenario? What is a good way to assist officers while keeping yourself out of trouble?

IF and ASSUMING (very critical qualifiers) you were simply walking down the street and were NOT involved in an act of provocation/trespassing/other criminal activity, answer honestly and concisely. Contrary to the beliefs of some of the "black helicopter" crowd, there is no grand conspiracy to lock up Joe Citizen "for no reason". I want to find the person involved in whatever was reported and not be tied up with someone who isn't doing anything wrong--the faster I can rule you out, the faster I can do this.
Click to expand...

In California, OC'ers can and do experience encounters with the law even though no illegal activity is being (or has been) committed. Officers don't always just show up, see someone OCing (legally) and just walk away either. In all likelihood, you will be questioned, possibly lectured, and worst case scenario, arrested.

Whether this is the result of ignorance of OC laws (not exactly common) or personal prejudice against armed citizens or OC is absolutely irrelevant. An officer is questioning you in a public place because he suspects you are doing something illegal (and you're not- someone else just considered what you're doing to be illegal and called the police on you). What is a good way to respond and be helpful while ensuring your legal safety? That's what I'm talking about.

As an LEO, if I don't know who I'm looking for, see a person in the area that kind of fits a vague description and stop to ask him questions, one of the first things I'm looking for is general demeanor--a person responding or acting evasive nervous or unreasonably defensive raises red flags and will prolong the contact (he may not have been the person harassing the caller, but I may have just accidentally stumbled on someone who was about to break into a house or is dealing drugs). Your response of...

will raise BIG red flags that either: A) You ARE the person we were called about and you WERE up to no good; or B) You're doing something ELSE that is illegal. In either case, the contact will most likely be prolonged AND (again IF you weren't doing anything wrong) you're now keeping me from finding the person I'm actually looking for.
Click to expand...

I'm curious. If you ask me if you can search my car or home and I tell you that I do not consent to any searches, will that "raise BIG red flags" too?

On the other hand, IF you want to act as a provocateur then stick with name/rank/serial number responses, request an attorney when asked for ID, start screaming "unlawful arrest" etc.; IF you HAVE been up to something, answer basic ID questions and invoke your rights when asked questions that might be incriminating (oops, forgot I'm LEO...I meant waive your rights, answer every question and confess freely to the crime you committed)
Click to expand...

If I'm not required to give you my ID, why should I? I'll give you my name and anything else I'm required to give by law, but what if I don't want to give my ID? Furthermore, ANY question an LEO asks might be incriminating, even if you're not guilty of anything. So, while I do want to cooperate and help officers arrest a criminal, I also don't want to give officers any reason to arrest, detain, or otherwise question me because they're suspicious for whatever reason (as is the case with OC here sometimes). Hey, maybe I'm nervous because I've never been stopped by an LEO for any reason before.
 
For my part, I don't want to be a jerk or rude. So I'll provide any reasonable assistance. Sure I wanna help and all. But to be perfectly clear, I'm the one who decides what's reasonable assistance. As a law-abiding citizen who has done nothing wrong, any interaction with LE is at my leisure, not theirs.


-T.
 
"I still see no valid reason not to exercise my rights. If your post contains such please point it out to me."

the reasons to cooperate were in post 16, assuming that one desires to be part of a peaceful society and cooperate when the cops try to resolve a complaint or problem. I was a wanna be anarchist when i was a kid. i outgrew it.

how many times, in real life as opposed to the net,have you had occasion to say "because anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law, officer, and it is my right to refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. Am I free to go"? and what were the results? assuming you've had occasion
 
+1 my friend. Yep, I sure do have the right to tell the cop to leave you alone when he runss up to you to ask which direction you saw that rapist/thief go. After all, if you make a mistake, he might come back and arrest you for aiding and abeting, right??? :barf:

In my opinion, part of one's duties as a citizen in this nation is helping the poice and others deal with crime. Yep, you have the right not to answer questions, to refuse to write a statement about what you saw happen. You see it around here all the time. "My job is to keep my family safe. Period. The rest is not my problem." And these same people will biotch and moan about the cops doing nothing about criminals, or the prosecutors plea bargaining cases away. ever stop to think that if good quality witnesses gave statements to the police, they would make arrests? And, with those statements in hand, and the witnesses waiting in the hallway prepared to testify at trial, the prosecutor wouldn't have to plea bargain?

As for the guy in the video is a jerk looking to provoke a response from the police to help his political agenda. The officer was professional and did an excellent job of getting to the point, avoiding an unnecessary arrest or citation, and more importantly keeping his composure while dealing with the idiot.
 
How many times, in real life as opposed to the net,have you had occasion to say "because anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law, officer, and it is my right to refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. Am I free to go"? and what were the results? assuming you've had occasion
Click to expand...

I guess you're the only one W/ a past around here CD.

Fact is that as I approach middle age I find that the police have less and less interest in me. That said, looking my past I can't think of a single interaction W/ the police ( bigger than a traffic stop) where shutting up and asking for a lawyer wouldn't have served me better than what I did.

If nothing I say is going to help me W/ a cop why should I say anything?

Now for those of you for whom reading comprehension is difficult.
I specified that this applies if I'm being questioned. This does not apply if I'm asked to make a witness statement.

CD I notice you spend quite a bit of time pointing out what a bunch of internet posers we all are. Since people tend to judge others by themselves, let's just say it gives me cause to wonder.
 
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