Woman Harassed for Open Carry

Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case.

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Maybe she chose to OC because it's more comfortable, and she wanted people to see that a normal, soccer mom can carry a gun and somehow resist shooting everyone in sight. It's all part of desensitizing the public.

RobNDenver said:

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect. Whether they did or not is a matter of law. Nonetheless, even if it is legal to carry openly at a children's soccer match, Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

Some people just like to cause trouble, and stir things up. She may very well have that right, but she seems to be pretty damned uncivil in today's world. These open carry advocates are going to get the same kind of response as the rabid anti abortionists carrying pictures of fetuses and demonstrating in front of homes belonging to suppliers of Planned Parenthood and other family planning clinics.

Oh, they have the right to do it, but in a decent, polite society its just wrong to go out of your way to upset and annoy people.

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I cannot even believe this post. She looks like a head case because she is exercising her right to open carry?

Would she look like a head case should she exercise her right to religion and bring a bible?

Do you even know her to make such a slanderous claim? Accusing her of simply causing trouble... how would you know her intentions when "walking around with a pistol on her hip".

"Dang uppity women... she shoulda been in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.... "

So please, pray tell, what else do you consider wrong in society, that might upset people, and should be disallowed?

I think Free Speech does a lot to upset people... lets do away with that as well... shall we?

She also may have been open carrying because women's clothing doesn't look all that conducive to IWB.

"We have the complaint email to the Sheriff."


i can't find that email can you help me out?

RobnDenver wrote:

Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

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This is one of the most outrageous statements I've ever read on THR. That would mean every individual in this country who OC's has a mental problem. There have been endless debates about OC vs CC, but I can't recall anyone calling an OC advocate crazy.

That is until RobnDenver voiced his opinion.

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect. Whether they did or not is a matter of law. Nonetheless, even if it is legal to carry openly at a children's soccer match, Ms. Hain just looks/acts like a head case. She has a concealed handgun license and chooses to walk around with a pistol on her hip?

Some people just like to cause trouble, and stir things up. She may very well have that right, but she seems to be pretty damned uncivil in today's world. These open carry advocates are going to get the same kind of response as the rabid anti abortionists carrying pictures of fetuses and demonstrating in front of homes belonging to suppliers of Planned Parenthood and other family planning clinics.

Oh, they have the right to do it, but in a decent, polite society its just wrong to go out of your way to upset and annoy people.

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There are MANY reasons to open carry. I do it EVERY time I carry.

1- It is a political statement, just like a bumper sticker that you put on the back of your car.

2- NOTHING will change with respect to firearms unless people are desensitized/get used to seeing firearms everywhere.

3- Exercising your rights is in NO way stirring up trouble. Anyone who would get angry at another person merely because they chose to use their rights, isn't a true American. Would you call someone invoking their right to an attorney "causing trouble" for not giving the cops what they want? How about someone standing on the sidewalk preaching?
Its the old saying, "I may not support what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". In this case, I feel the same way.

4- An Unexercised Right is not a right.


Now, for physical reasons, in which I am most likely similar to the woman listed:
5- I weigh ~120lb, concealing a firearm is difficult for me.
6- I wear pants that fit, thus a firearm will not fit inside my pants.
7- Firearms IWB are much less comfortable than a good OWB holster.

"We have the complaint email to the Sheriff."


i can't find that email can you help me out?

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I believe it was on the pafoa website in the (I think) "Carry - Concealed and Open" forum, or something close enough, along with the revocation letter from the Sheriff. It's in the "LTCF revoked" thread.

http://www.pafoa.org

Would you call someone invoking their right to an attorney "causing trouble" for not giving the cops what they want?

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Sadly, many people would have to say "yes" if they were honest about that one.

they may have removed the email i can't find it

In this case, or in many other states, of the 'cops that arrive at the scene' have an opinion that is in violation of the law, then the police, officers, and city all get sued.

You can have your opinion all you want, but you would be remiss to attempt to chastise someone from exercising their RIGHTS in public. You have no right to not be offended.

Jeeze Rob, we love you too.


For what it's worth I've walked around like this^ in urban and suburban areas a whole lot, without any particularly bad reactions (but a few good ones), no more police interaction than a smile and nod, and lots of friendly howdies.

Even a few foreign tourists asking directions were friendly and polite.

Now why should you be getting so vitriolic? Relax. Most people who open carry are polite, friendly, easy going folks. There's just no reason to get all bent out of shape over the sight of someone who doesn't feel like covering up their sidearm.

This attitude seems la lot like an attempt to appease the antis and gunbanners in an effort to keep them from coming after what YOU consider is acceptable. Throwing others under the bus if you will. This attitude is not helpful for regaining lost RKBA rights. It's a lot like the attitude of many hunters toward certain types of firearms.

Divided house and all that.

Aran and CD need to read Deanimator's post on the 10 steps this incident incurred. That sums it up, and if I want to open carry and someone tells me I shouldn't do that, I tell them it's my rights and if they don't like it they can walk away and ignore it.

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Deanimator and VARifleman need to realize that Aran has more information than what was put in that little ten step list (And remember that 10 doesn't apply, as I OC every day.) and more info than almost anyone here who didn't catch that thread before it was removed.

But hey, stick to the one view of the story, doesn't hurt me at all.

Divided house and all that.

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I would have ended with something more like "Nevel Chamberland, and all that"

I would have ended with something more like "Nevel Chamberland, and all that"

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Good point.

Neville or Zumbo, it sure doesn't help get RKBA closer to the goal.

That email message people are looking for...

Here it is http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/16426.html

If she getts a lawer she has nothing to worry about.

Tha clause says that she had to act ina manner that she may harm someone of somthing like that. Just someone complaining will not be good enough with out proof of misconduct in court.

I guess the basic idea of any authority regulating the RKBA is tough to stomach. Unfortunately, I personally do not believe it takes a rocket scientist to comprend what will result from open carry at a soccer game.

Personally, as here in California, a permit to carry depends very much on the discretion of the local Sheriff. I doubt I can set the standard for the term 'discretion of the sheriff', unless I am the sheriff.


Good luck, but it seems to me a waste of money.

You guys are certainly entitled to your opinion on open carry, but so am I, and so are the cops when they find someone open carrying in a setting that creates a problem for others.

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The cops are entitled to any opinion they want. When that opinion conflicts with established law and precedent, they act on it to their peril, kind of like having the opinion that gravity doesn't count and that they can dive off of the observation deck of the Sears Tower and not get hurt.

If you as a law enforcement officer willfully violate my rights contrary to state and or federal law, I will HURT you. I will take everything you own. I'll snatch the food right out of your childrens mouths. While you're eating ramen in your mother's basement, you can use her internet connection to visit my blog and see how I'm talking about you like a dog TODAY. And there's NOTHING you can do about it. Bad choices, bad consequences.

You can take your open carry and shove it in an urban or suburban setting, in my humble opinion.

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Your opinion isn't "humble". It's foolish, even reckless. If you're a cop and try to put it into practice, it's devastatingly self-destructive.

I'm willing to spend the night in jail... if you're willing to spend the rest of your life in poverty. Deal?

Personally, as here in California, a permit to carry depends very much on the discretion of the local Sheriff. I doubt I can set the standard for the term 'discretion of the sheriff', unless I am the sheriff.

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There's NO discretion in the case at hand. In neither Pennsylvania nor Ohio for that matter is open carry a legal grounds to revoke a LTCF or CHL. Revoke one on such a wrongful basis and the city will be writing me a BIG check. YOU as sheriff will have the ironic task of confiscating your OWN property for the sheriff's sale to pay the judgement against you. And trust me, I'll attach EVERY piece of property the law allows.

Lookn4Brass said:

I wouldn't be an open carry "starter" person myself. I don't condemn the person for wanting to open carry, but think that concealed would be infinitely smarter. Unless alot of mindset changes on the subject, open carry will not be good for gun owners in this day and age, IMHO. We aren't going to convert the whole world to our view. Hopefully we can convert some and keep the rest of them off our butt, and live in peace most of the time.

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OC is a choice to be made by anyone in a place where they can OC or CC. But the fact of the matter is, no one is going to change any minds unless they are OCing. That is, unless they have time to go about engaging every individual they meet in an academic discussion.

As far as those worthy souls asserting that there is more to the story, whether or not that is really true has no bearing on the matter. What bears on the matter is what the sheriff noted in his letter. People being "upset" is not a cause for revocation in Pennsylvania. He is out of line for revoking her license for his stated reason.

Lets try to keep things civil here, so we don't lose another interesting thread.

A point was made that she may have been confronted by concerned parents regarding her choice to OC, and that she may have responded harshly back.

Unless we see specific evidence that she responded in a manner that qualified for her license revokation, we should presume she is the innocent party here. If said evidence was pulled from a thread to protect her case, then that is understandable. Most people, when confronted with an argument such as OC, will stand their ground. Unless she was removed from the game at that time by officials, she was not in a legal position to lose her license on the grounds specified in the letter.

What we have here, folks, is heresay on the parts of the complainers. Overzealousness on the part of the former-judge, in his actions to rat her out. And a response from the sheriff based on that heresay, rather than actual evidence. The town is in trouble, thanks to whiney soccer-moms who don't know the law.

RobNDenver said:

I am fully aware that what Ms. Hain may be doing in a public setting is legal. However in PA the soccer club may have the right to bar armed spectators from premises it controls if it passes a bylaw to that effect.

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This has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. The sheriff revoked her LTCF, specifically stating that she upset some individuals! This is not the same thing as telling someone they can't come on your property. :banghead:

Spanish Inquisition: 1487-1700

neeed more? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition....

Sorry, couldn't resist the gratuitous Monty Python comment.

It could have been worse, she could have been touting the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

If we can keep the signal to noise ratio high,

WE, NONE OF US, KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AT THE SOCCER GAME.

Once the background becomes apparent then we can all pontificate to our hearts content as to the rights, reasons, background, morals, legality, whether she should have carried a .45 not a girly 9mm etc etc.

Are there any THR members who live in the neighborhood and can find out some facts ???

robndenver, you should know a bit about PA laws on firearms before you go making ridiculous suppositions on the mental outlook of a female open carrying.

first, PA does not have concealed handgun licenses. They have a LTCF, or a license to carry a firearm.

Second, PA has a few State Supreme Court cases that specifically state that open carry is a constitutionally protected right and that the only place that requires that license while open carrying is philly.

third, PA has total state pre-emption meaning that no county or municipality can make an ordnance that regulates the wearing or bearing of firearms, so some soccer foundation is powerless when it comes to banning weapons at their events.

fourth, there has already been one court hearing where a sheriff decided to revoke an LTCF because an individual open carried a handgun to a polling booth. whether YOU think it's a good idea or not is irrelevant. It's completely legal according to all interpretations of the laws. The courts agreed with the citizen and ordered the return of his LTCF. This other sheriff should have known of this issue and realized he'd lose.

fifth, this constant BS about 'yes it's your right, but you shouldn't do it because it upsets people' is crap. Those who spout it should seriously reconsider just how strongly they believe in RKBA or if their convictions are just to make them feel 'elite' because they have government permission while others don't.