Any other liberals?

I've been a gun owner over fourty years, since I was in high school in fact. I started carrying a firearm as soon as I was able to. I never had issues with gun ownership, carrying firearms or the use of lethal weapons just seemed the natural order of things and what men do. I am fairly conservative, never voted for a Democrat nor would I. I believe the money I earn is mien my not the the governments and certainly not to be taken to use for welfare, food stamps, free healthcare or any other social services, if I can earn a dollar so can anyone else. Thanks

IBTL. My political beliefs include;

1. There is no such thing as a truly benevolent government.
2. Gun Control is a consistently present policy preceeding genocide and other human right violations. (look to WWII +/- 15 years for a plethora of examples)
3. All other policies flow from #1 and #2. I believe strongly in the idea and practice of a representative government.
4. In order to retain our influence and power OVER the government (not .gov over us), we must remain armed and participate in our democracy.

All other subjects are up for discussion with me. I'm a social libertarian in practice, and fiscally conservative. I wouldn't consider myself an American liberal.

For those of us who think "It'll never get that bad...." with reference to the state of our own country, we need only look to history for disagreement. We should all weigh carefully the long-term ramifications of electing politicians that promise "moderate and reasonable" control over ANY aspect of our lives. FWIW, you can better defend yourself with a firearm that almost any other object/substance/behavior either party seeks to ban.

Some still don't get it.

I consider myself a libertarian leaning towards the right. I believe in God but don't go to church. I'm a union member but gets "disappointed" when another member gets paid the same for doing less....a lot less.(Life is unfair get over it)I have a problem with the government trying to control my life. The government can't get the medical care right for the VETERANS....what makes you think the government can get it (NATIONAL HEALTH CARE) right for everyone else? Am I against some sort of welfare....no, everyone can hit hard times. I am not rich, I'm part of the middle class and don't want the burden of everyone else on my back all the time. I work hard for what I EARNED and don't try to keep up with the JONES'es (I drive a Ford Ranger)!

ASK yourself this, "Would you vote for someone who tries to restrict your "Freedom of Speech"? Then why would you vote for someone who tries to restrict your "Right to bear Arms"! By God those are LIBERTIES TEETH!




The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."

- Adolf Hitler





They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Ben Franklin

A small l or big L Libertarian is NOT a liberal.

A neo con artist and rino is not a conservative.

The old fashioned Dems and the old fashioned Reps are NOT what these 'parties' have become in X amount of years.

A true Constitution person would NOT agree with either the NWO anti freedom R or NWO anti freedom D party as we know it today or even X amount of years ago! They are both ANTI American and putting America FIRST in ALL issues. Globalist control freaks - ugh.

A true PRO Freedom and true PRO Firearm person would tell BOTH parties to 'stick it' because they are not FOR 'we the people'!

The truth is that you will always hear the same old - same old BS from both parties while they smear the other guy, place the x, y or z 'CARDS' which they BOTH do (Reps and Dems!), play the hate card, the race card, the sex card, the age card, the CLASS WARFARE card, the religion card, the economy card, the ANTI or PRO GUN card, the abortion card even in the case of 'RAPE' - like the victim of the rape has to pay twice for being a victim plus worry about DISEASES, the victim card = welfare, they neglect to bring up ALL of the corporate welfare issues, the illegal alien = criminal card versus the LEGAL immigrant card, the outsourcing card, the Constitution shredding card ALL in the name of Homeland INsecurity for those color coded fear alerts, the air, shore and border control issues, the war mongering crowd for x, y or z countries, the MIC complex card = Ike's warning to all of us, the FOR THE CHILDREN CARD = gag a maggot time and that can and does include ALL issues there, etc.

BOTH parties stink and both of them do NOT have YOU or your families in mind when they continue to ignore real issues and pass the buck = YOUR DOLLAR!

Most voters are clueless as are most gun people are in all FREEDOM issues.

Like you really trust those Diebold machines and other software programs? Ha ha! I am not talking about people who don't push their CHADS all of the way through... I am talking about election THEFT. Bring back the paper ballots and a back up.

History is being made and you have even more CONTROL and loss of freedom as we know it this week. And the beat goes on... lies and theft.

GUN control = control. Period.

See my other posts regarding L. NEIL SMITH on his essay called:

Why did it have to be guns?

Keep your powder dry.

Yours in liberty,

Catherine

Looks to me like you "get it", Jaybird.

One of the first things Hitler did before starting WWII and exterminating people was call for all kinds of gun control, including registration...which subsequently led to confiscation.

gun control

one thing, most of you havent lived in a relativly gun control free socity.I have.except for the 1934 law most states were control free.high schools had rifle ranges and supplied the guns and ammo.I never knew what a liberal socialist was until the 60s.boys respected girls and the girls that did get pregnant went to see aunti and after the apendix was removed came home much chastized as it was a disgrace to have child out of wedlock.we learned in school as we had discipline or out you went.the socialists killed that.

I believe in common sense...not political parties. I'll listen to any theory, and evaluate it on it's proven merits. The answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. The extreme rhetoric from both ends of the spectrum irritate the hell out of me.

This is interesting.

For 13 years, I have refused to allow callers to "Gun Talk Radio" talk about liberals and conservatives.

I have had many people over the years slide up to me and say that they are liberals, that they support gun rights, but that they don't feel comfortable in many groups of gun owners.

I don't care how someone feels about other issues if he or she supports gun rights.

Think Pink Pistols.

Congrats to all here who have been open to someone, or many people, who say they are liberal, but who understand the need for self protection and who support the very idea of gun rights.

I would consider myself a liberal who supports gun rights. Most of my political views are very liberal but I also believe very strongly in gun rights. People think that all liberals are anti gun but most of my friends are liberals and they all love guns.

Just because you support gun rights does not automatically place you in a political category. Not all republicans and conservatives are pro gun just like not all Democrats and liberals are anti gun.

Click to expand...

Exactly... Most of the people I know who shoot fall on the more liberal side of the spectrum, and my ultra-conservative family members are anti-gun. Go figure.

It does get very tiring to see how many folks in gun forums "go off" on "liberals" all the time regarding guns. Also those that are single-issue voters who just pick the single candidate based on whether he is slightly better regarding guns than the other. As you stated, I vote based on which one I agree with the most important items on, with guns being just one of the items (but still important!).

I used to belong to several political and GUN boards - private and public ones. I moderated some boards and I ran some on my own too.

There were 2 people on one board that were interested in guns. One was a woman and one was a man and they were homosexuals. I told them that I had heard about the 'Pink Pistols' and that they had various groups around the country. I said that even though I was a middle aged widow... some of those groups brought people into the RKBA issue and into GUNS big time.

I don't like to keep people apart due to x, y or z and if someone wants to know about self defense issues, learn guns, BUY guns and support the RKBA ISSUE... more power to them.

I don't have to be this or that in a social and/or sex issue but I totally SUPPORT anyone who wants to get into guns and help us ALL out.

I am a Constitution Lady as stated by my other posts here.

Catherine

That is true on Republicans and/or Democrats. Just because someone has a R or a D behind their name does NOT always make them PRO FIREARM and PRO FREEDOM according to the Constitution.

Think of us as declaring our own Declaration of Independence = Freedom and Firearms!

Catherine

Wrestled With Myself?

Are there any other folks out there who have wrestled with the decision to arm themselves?

Click to expand...

Not really.

There were a couple of factors that kept me disarmed for so many years.

I had done my military time and, on getting out, I figured the whole "armed defense" thing was someone else's job.

I went on to do several years of volunteer work in Europe.

When I came back, I had cross-trained into the brand new high tech sector and found myself mostly sitting at a desk.

I met and got to know a few people who had guns, some of them hunters, some of them shooters, and a couple just plain strange.

I had never really familiarized myself with firearms, and I wasn't comfortable around them or the people who had them.

On the one hand, I could have gotten familiar, but that would have required two things: 1) an admission that I didn't know spit, and 2) something resembling work to actually learn about them.

So, here I was, nervous around gunnies, unwilling to admit I had something to learn, and unwilling to work at it.

I guess you could say I was an ignorant lazy coward on the subject. And I guess I'd have a hard time arguing it with you.

Came the day, though, that I realized I needed to learn more, as I was moving to a place where people hunted and sport shooting was common.

I went to gun shops and asked questions. "Hi there. I'm Garry. You guys got time for some dumb questions?"

I got a .22 rifle. A friend of ours gave me a snub-nosed .38 calibre revolver. I was good with the rifle, terrible with the pistol.

I kept asking dumb questions. I added another rifle, then a pistol, and so on. I practiced.

One day, as I was timidly feeling my way toward enlightenment, we had a "parade" in our town. Several hundred angry Mexican "youths" carrying a huge Mexican flag, right by our front door. Fists in the air. Shouting slogans I didn't understand. No smiles.

I was completely not prepared to deal with a "random social event" on any scale at all. My wife and I had a moment of illumination, and set about becoming more prepared for [whatever].

Why? 'Cuz you just never know.

Did my politics have anything to do with it? Not really.

I was never a particularly good Democrat. Ross Perot's thing didn't work. And I was never a particularly good Republican.

Know why?

'Cuz none of them ever cared what I thought. They never asked. They would show up with some kind of platform that had been decided on by a group of good ol' boys of some stripe in a smoke-filled room to which I'd not been invited.

The platform was always presented as "received wisdom" and we were expected to endorse it.

Kinda came down to choosing which group would run my life according to whichever set of rules I found more acceptable -- or found less objectionable.

Nah. Politics didn't have anything to do with my decision to be armed.

Waking up from years as an ignorant, lazy, timid dweeb was what did it.

I still don't care for politics.

I still won't vote for someone whom I believe means to disarm me.

Welcome to The High Road.

I still don't care for politics.

Click to expand...

Give it a few more years, Arf, and you'll be where I am: I disdain politics.

I hate when people call me a Democrat, liberal, etc when I say who I will vote for this year. I am a gun rights supporter but more importantly I am an American. We need to pull together now more than ever. United We Stand.........Divided We Fall.............

The concept of public education goes pretty far back in America. Here's Jefferson:

Click to expand...

Ahh, Jefferson. Im farmiliar with the quote. I enjoy reading his work & quotes.

Lets have a look at Jefferson's theory of what a public school should be :

First, this should be done by dividing each county into small districts five or six miles square, called hundreds. The schools , which should be created, controlled, and funded locally, should teach 3 subjects - reading, writing and arithmetic for three years. His lack of confidence in government was shown by his comment on a 1780 bill to place education in the hands of local officials. He said:

"If it is believed that these elementary schools will be better managed by the governor and council...or any other general authority of the government, than by the parents within each ward, it is a belief against all experience. Try the principle one step further and amend the bill so as to commit to the governor and council the management of all our farms, our mills, and merchants' stores. No, my friend, the way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to one but to divide it among the many."


What you would have is a community funded, and operated school house where students would attend first, second, and third grade. We can also gather, then, that Jefferson would not have supported the Federal DOE. Rather, the locally funded school would have been held accountable by the community it served. Not by bureaucrats.

But I would ask if you think you should only have to pay for those roads that you drive on or those soldiers who protect your town.

Click to expand...

The two are not mutually exclusive. The Constitution provides the right for the government to raise, and support an army. Roads, much the same as schools, should be funded, and overseen, localy. Much the same as schools. And before the government became bloated, they always were.

Why should I have to pay for roads which you drive on, but not I ? Why should I have to pay for your child's doctor visits? Why should I have to pay for your childs free lunch at school? I could go on and on.....

But before we hand the candy-store keys to the private sector, think about this: The ultimate business model is one in which you give me a lot of money and I give you nothing: 100% profit!

Click to expand...

I find it humorous you quote Jefferson above and then make that claim. And an unfair, unsubstantiated claim to make; at that. How many stores do you know of that stay in business operating like that? Free market will kill off the substandard vendors.

I'll close with this - The goverment's job description should be a narrow one: To protect the rights of the people -which are life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.

I hate when people call me a Democrat, liberal, etc when I say who I will vote for this year. I am a gun rights supporter but more importantly I am an American. We need to pull together now more than ever. United We Stand.........Divided We Fall.............

Click to expand...

No matter, this country is divided and the divide is like a chasm. To me it is all about Freedom. We have been loosing our freedoms for quite some time and both parties are responsible. The Heller decision was a small breath of fresh air in an otherwise polluted landscape. That breath of fresh air will likely dissipate. Personally, I could not vote for Obama. I have never heard him or any of his spokesman say they believe in "The right to KEEP and bear arms." I only hear them say, "The right to bear arms." That, my friend, is a large distinction. Obama says he believes in the 2nd amendment and has a new group called "The Hunters and Shooters Association" supporting him as a ruse to fool you. I do believe he believes in the 2nd amendment, but only in the way the ACLU does. In other words, he does not support the Heller decision. It is so apparent and so many people either do not get it or do not care. It is frightening. Am I an issue voter? This year YES.

I got my license to CC this year because of this. I have never been afraid of much of anything until this year. I am afraid for our country.

What you would have is a community funded, and operated school house where students would attend first, second, and third grade. We can also gather, then, that Jefferson would not have supported the Federal DOE. Rather, the locally funded school would have been held accountable by the community it served. Not by bureaucrats.

Click to expand...

Fine--I'm not defending the DOE. But we're still talking about public education, not private. The motivation is the good of the society. In Jefferson's day, a third grade education would have been deemed sufficient to create an educated citizen. I don't think we'd make the same claim today.

Why should I have to pay for roads which you drive on, but not I ?

Click to expand...

The rationale, which you may or may not agree with, is that the nation requires an efficient infrastructure. It's not just a matter of commerce, but of national defense: the interstate highway system is a case in point.

But before we hand the candy-store keys to the private sector, think about this: The ultimate business model is one in which you give me a lot of money and I give you nothing: 100% profit!

Click to expand...

I find it humorous you quote Jefferson above and then make that claim. And an unfair, unsubstantiated claim to make; at that. How many stores do you know of that stay in business operating like that? Free market will kill off the substandard vendors.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you found it humorous, because it was intended to be. I was exaggerating the point that profit comes from the difference between outlay and income. I don't think I'm unfair in defining it that way. The same could be said from the consumer side: The consumer's dream is "free stuff."

I wish I could believe that the free market would "kill off the substandard vendors," but I see disproof of that every day. It seems that the larger the corporation, the harder it is to kill off. Waste, fraud, and mismanagement are not unique to the public sector. In my experience, private vendors with government contracts are insulated from the real demands of the free market anyway, so I don't believe that outsourcing is a panacea. Certain essential institutions, such as the military, should have as their primary goal the strength of the nation, not profit. I think where we disagree is on exactly which institutions (besides the military) those are.

IMHO, the real challenge facing us is how to meet the demands of the modern world without abandoning the principles on which our nation is founded. It's not easy, and there are obviously a lot of differences of opinion on how to approach the problem. What I think we all agree on here is that there is a problem with the way it's currently being done.

If it means defending the 2A then I will vote for McCain. But lordy lord, I despise him as a politician and always have, and except for her legs, Palin is an embarrassment everytime she opens her mouth to speak. At least McCain won't need to hire an intern. Why Lord, why couldn't you have made Obama 2A friendly?

I think for many of us, who by the time we were old enough to understand some of the environment around us, and it included guns, it is now a way of life.
For better or worse my father never locked his guns up, and I remember sneaking into his gun closet and being in awe of his guns.
I would feel extremely vulnerable on one level and wouldn't be able to hunt (my favorite thing on earth) on another, without guns.
When my kids were growing up there were always guns in the house, but they were locked up perhaps as much for theft prevention as their safety. Both my wife and I had/have
.45 ACP's within a moments reach of bed.
We refuse to become victims.

When the kids were about 5 they were shown what bullets do to animals while I skinned out deer/elk.
I always told my kids that there was no way to make a dead (shot) deer come back to life, "so what would happen if that deer were you ? "
I never had a single problem with my 3 kids and all own guns, shoot, hunt.

Much of the way one feels about guns is in the way they are raised.

Politically, America is only as good as Her people. If we make it difficult to get an education and better ourselves, and by doing so better our country, we will lose to competing countries (#30) were education is free. The more uneducated, sick, needy people we have in the US, the larger the bottom of our society is.
So if the bottom falls out, (and it darn near did this last week) it will change America for the worse. We must have a healthy, wealthy (moderately) and large middle class to keep from those few at the top taking the US down with Enron/Wa-Mu type scams. I am as worried about the behavior of the uber-rich as I am any communist, or socialist, because the rich when corrupt have the power to put this country into a depression were more people will suffer than the damage any equal sized group of commie's or socialists could . When you reach out to someone, you only better yourself and your country. So I guess I am a conservative liberal. But more than a political name tag, I am a scientist, and I believe that technology can make life better and more productive for humankind.
To allow our country to become illiterate and unproductive in the name of self-serving greed is the prescription for a 3rd world country.
So, why make it difficult to access those commodities that make America better, stronger, and the best country on earth ?
Roberoo

No can't say I ever had any personal struggle chosing to exercise my natural and constitution right to bear arms in defense.

PRO GUN PEOPLE in All Political Parties will need their GUNS with the garbage that just went through today with our Congress Critters.

You talk about freedom, firearms, etc. - YOU will have even more control from the NWO Reps and NWO Dems after this bail out vote and when it goes to globalist Bush to sign. UGH.

You want to get through for GUN rights and ALL other freedom issues in MT?

Denny Rehberg:
D.C. voice mail and mail box FULL. Tough cookies! R?!?

Jon Tester:
D.C. voice mail and mail box FULL. Tough cookies! D?!?

Max Baucus:
D.C. voice mail and mail box FULL. Tough cookies! D?!?

The M and O men - ha! Pul___leeze say, "No!" GUN RIGHTS? ALL freedom issues and LESS government including the POLICE STATE in your lives? Not! Only what they give a rat's @@@ about. Give you a crumb here and take away a LOAF there = both parties!

Don't blame me, I was for a man who had a CLUE.

Catherine
http://www.lneilsmith.org/whyguns.html
Why did it have to be guns?

Issue for issue, I swing "left" at least three times as often as I swing "right", to the extent that either of those terms really means anything. In current popular usage that probably makes me a "liberal".

On the more complex two-axis political spectra I come up consistently left-libertarian rather than liberal. That doesn't surprise me, because I (1) practice one of the more orthodox flavors of Christianity and (2) own a closet full of guns which I am not ashamed of knowing how to use and would not turn in if the order were ever given. (Incidentally I think that's a fairly improbable scenario, at least in the US and at least while the Constitution is even nominally in effect).

Bottom line, I don't think the Second Amendment should be a liberal-vs-conservative issue.

Not a liberal, not a conservative. I find both equally confusing, limiting, degrading, and petty.

I'm chocked full of common sense. So, I'm a Libertarian. I believe you have every right to do whatever you want, just so long as you don't hurt anyone in the process. Shoot up, smoke it up, whatever. Just don't steal my TV, or my neighbors.

Point being, I'll never, ever understand why so many conservative people are so gung ho on the 2nd Amd, and personal freedom and wave the personal accountability flag, yet feel the need to squash most civil rights that liberals fight for. This country is so polarized and I feel the repair won't happen in my lifetime. If only it was 1865 again... I could open carry with no guff, smoke some opium in the privacy of my home, and have a chance at true liberty and freedom that I just don't have now.



/stepdownsoapbox

Not to sound naive but...

if W couldn't repeal Roe v. Wade, what makes us think Obama could pull off another gun ban?

I can't vote for McCain for the fact that Palin makes Quayle look like a Rhodes Scholar. I just can't see the point in handing the keys to the Zamboni to someone who has only ever driven a bumper car. Even if she won't get to drive (we hope). Not that I think the light shines from Obama, either. Not by a long shot.

I blame Ron Paul. If he'd just leave the GOP we'd have a viable candidate to vote for. Maybe next time he can get Ross Perot and T. Boone Pickens to back his play, being a proper Texan and all.

I won't vote for the O man or the M man.

People go on about gun rights and some candidates and 'parties' want to take OTHER rights away from you all in the name of x, y or z. UGH. Why not take a look at the Constitution shredding in these last YEARS? Outright MURDERS in all of these years - past and present administrations - most likely FUTURE administrations. Why not take a look at the crapola with Waco, Ruby Ridge and tons more - not allowed here?

This last deal and sell out is just that - SELL OUT not 'bail out'! Do you honestly think that the Dems and Reps listened to YOU aka We the People? Ha ha! NOT!

If you have a rino or neo con artist sell you out with NWO R socialist ideas along with the OTHER NWO D socialist selling you out while they STAB YOU IN THE BACK and ROB YOU - rob your children if you have any which I do not - more power to you if you believe their BS of lies and theft. You don't like lies and theft when it comes to protecting yourself, your loved ones and your HOME or BUSINESS... why the H would you put up with it NOW? YOU need a gun for that protection, right?

GUN rights? Uh huh. What about your RIGHTS as an American citizen who has to put up with even MORE taxation without representation? All of the OTHER ISSUES which are not allowed on this board. THOSE very issues tie into your FREEDOM and FIREARM issues no matter how you want to slice up the PIE!

You are going to need more than GUN RIGHTS to put this country back in order when it comes to Firearm and Freedom Issues.

Some GUN owners are their own worst enemies. Yes, sit back and watch/listen to the great sucking sound get even louder, let them rape you in more ways than sexual rape and flush more liberties down the toilet of NO return including your Firearm and Freedom Rights! Well, golly gee, he or she had a R or a D or an X by their name so they had to be on MY side. NOT! :banghead:

Yours in liberty,

Catherine

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
Samuel Adams