So my wife had a ND....of the worst kind.

ND and AD

I think all of us "get" that an ND/AD is almost always the user's fault. Similarly, if I drop and break a glass while putting it away, it was my fault--but we don't call that a "negligent."

The term "negligent," however, has a specific legal meaning: that you had a duty and did not perform that duty. After basic training, the military considers that it's the soldier's (or sailor's, etc.) duty to be in control of his weapon--as I understand it, severe penalties attach to a military ND even if no injury is done. And bravo.

I, for one, do NOT prefer to use the legal term "negligent discharge" for a civilian, non-professional AD. If we think of a typical AD (say, someone with a 1911 who prefers Condition 2 carry, and the hammer slips as he's lowering it, discharging the weapon), well, let's count the "errors" he's made:

1. Chose a 1911, which some people feel are more prone to AD than DAOs. (But others feel ther's no mistake in going 1911.)
2. Chose condition 2 carry, which in this type of gun REQUIRES you to pull the trigger on a full chamber and NOT get a discharge (But some people feel condition 2 is best for them).
3. Didn't interpose something (his other thumb) between hammer and firing pin as he lowered the hammer, or did but insufficiently to prevent discharge.
4. Let the hammer slip away from him.

I would argue that the "mistake" happened at step 2, when he chose a mode of carry that would predispose to AD; or at 3 by not having a better decocking technique. But the AD happened at step 4. Is this then an ND--or a "negligent" decision followed by an AD? Or just an AD?

ADs are our fault. If they violate (or are later decided to have violated) a legal obligation, then they are negligent. But failing such a legal finding, can't they be just accidents?

I do not think that every accident, even if it is our fault, is per se negligence. If so, by similar logic we should consider every driver who "could have" possibly avoided an accident by changing his behavior (usually driving slower) to also be negligent. This would largely remove the term "traffic accident" from our vocabulary.

None of this changes the fact that a driver involved in an accident should use that event to develop safer driving techniques, and any shooter who has an AD TO WHICH HE IN ANY WAY CONTRIBUTED must change his ways.

(A bit off-topic, I know, but a lot of disputes are caused by parties using the same word differently, so I wanted to clarify my ideas on "accident" and "negligent.")

the worst kind is where she or someone else winds up dead.. so it wasn't really the worst kind...She needs more training.

The wound will heal. Glad everyone is safe. We all make mistakes.

I still fail to see why she would rack an 'empty' gun, and then pull the trigger!

The hammer would have been down prior to racking, so why rack it and pull the trigger just to return it to the state it was originally?

Loosedhorse said:

I do not think that every accident, even if it is our fault, is per se negligence.

Click to expand...

Sorry IMO playing legal mumbo jumbo word games like that is totally irrelevant and irresponsible. Taking real world responsibility for our actions IS relevant. Being grown ups accountable for our actions is what responsible gun ownership is about. If we are going to minimize rationalize and justify not using due diligence than we should not carry a DEADLY WEAPON. Modern firearms DO NOT go off my accident. They do not just jump up and go boom. They REQUIRE specific deliberate step in order to fire. There are no accidental discharges only deliberate intentional firing and negligent discharges. Assuming anything else is shirking our responsibility putting not only ourselves but everyone around us in danger

Well I'm glad to hear she'll be OK and I'd like to welcome her to the 'ND Perforation Club' . Anyhow I'm glad it didn't turn her off toward guns .

Sorry IMO playing legal mumbo jumbo word games like that is totally irrelevant and irresponsible.

Click to expand...

Seeking agreed-upon definitions of words is never irrelevant.

Although it varies, usual definitions of negligence involve "failure to act as a reasonable and prudent person would under similar circumstances." I guess anyone who believes that no reasonable, prudent person has ever had an AD should side with ND. Those who believe a resonable and prudent person can still have an accident may opt for AD.

Irresponsible? If that's how I seem to you, you are of course entitled to your opinion. However, my response nowhere denies responsibility or accountability.

They REQUIRE specific deliberate step in order to fire.

Click to expand...

Or specific, non-deliberate steps.

Appreciate the exchange.

Glowin,

Has your wife recovered?

The two of you may want to develop a "procedure" for safe handling. I found it works out well because the only thinking involved is safe gun handling. I do things like:

1) If a handgun is in a holster, it's really, really always loaded because it's "on duty". (As opposed to merely "always" loaded).

2) Loaded handguns get placed into holsters or the safe (something to cover the trigger).

3) Using verbalization:

When handling a gun, state out loud:

A) (Before touching gun) "This gun is loaded."
B) (Pick-up gun) "Muzzle pointed in a safe direction."
C) (Open action and clear). "Action is clear."
D) (Check again). "Verified action is clear."
E) (Move ammo away from gun) "Ammunition separated from the gun".
F) (Put gun down) "Gun is pointed in a safe direction and unloaded."

If you give the gun to someone:

A) (Hold out gun, point in safe direction) "Your gun"
B) (Recipient gets solid grip on gun) "My gun"
C) Recipient does clearing procedure ( should be already clear if you didn't intend for them to shoot) or shoots, depending upon the situation.

If you're dry firing:

A) Do scenario #1.
B) Double check that there's no ammunition IN THE ROOM. If that's not possible, it needs to go into a safe, box, or bag...something that you have to formally futz with.
C) "This is a NON-FIRING drill"
D) "Verified clear"
E) Do your drills.

If you do these each and every time, you will not have a problem.

One of the first things suggested to me when I bought my first gun was to put it on the couch next to me, unloaded, and pick it up and put it down about a thousand times with my finger off the trigger as I watched TV for a couple of nights.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip. I will have to try this. I just started using firearms less than 2 months ago and I've noticed that my finger automatically goes on the trigger unless I'm consciously thinking about where I'm putting it. I need to break that habit.

Hope your wife is recovering well. Thanks to all for underlining the need for drilling safety habits which are thorough and thought through.

A) (Before touching gun) "This gun is loaded."
B) (Pick-up gun) "Muzzle pointed in a safe direction."
C) (Open action and clear). "Action is clear."
D) (Check again). "Verified action is clear."
E) (Move ammo away from gun) "Ammunition separated from the gun".
F) (Put gun down) "Gun is pointed in a safe direction and unloaded."

Click to expand...

Here is a easy one taught up North.

PROVE
P -------> Point gun in a safe direction.
R -------> Remove all cartridges
O -------> Observe the chamber(rack the slide)
V -------> Verify the feeding path
E -------> Examine the bore

PROVE
P -------> Point gun in a safe direction.
R -------> Remove all cartridges
O -------> Observe the chamber(rack the slide)
V -------> Verify the feeding path
E -------> Examine the bore

Click to expand...

That's awesome!

I'm "stealing" it.

another glad she is ok,

but again another what the hell was she thinking.

i have a sigma .40 and love it(daily carry) ive dry fired it thousands of times and cleaned it about half that many times.

she clearly was not paying attsion to what she was doing.