Gelatin test says 9mm = 45ACP for SD?

...didnt the army do a study fairly recently in conjunction with the JSP program that said that anything under a 45 was less than likely to stop an oncoming attacker in his tracks? i know the army has to use ball ammo etc., and i know the current issue is still a 9mm, but when they were taking JSP bids i remember reading that this was the reason they decided 45 was the caliber they wanted...

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Yes and no. The army wanted better incapacitation ability than the 9mm NATO FMJ load offered. If you are limited to ball ammo, then yes moving up in caliber size is the only real way to increase rapid incapacitation. However, the .45 pistol program was cancelled for reasons unknown. Since then, the military has been integrating 9mm EFMJ ammo in limited quantities that technically does not go against Hague Convention restrictions and can with no questions asked be used on non uniformed combatants. The USAF is looking for a replacement for their M9s to a .40S&W.

Provided that you can reasonable shoot and handle a larger caliber than a 9mm, then you only gain greater odds of more rapid incapacitation through CNS damage and/or blood/oxygen loss. It really does depend on the ability of the shooter and their physical and mental state. Should I be under a great deal of stress and fatigued, I would probably better served with a 9mm and modernized defense ammo. Probably why the 9mm tends to be a better general issue combat cartridge due to its ease of use under combat conditions.

I agree with those who say that this is a bad example.

The 147 grain 9mm GS round is a good performing round. The .45 200 grain +p Gold Dot is not a good performer. Thus, the 9 "wins" in this case. It's a fixed contest.

Gelatin tells good and true tales. But it does not tell tales of bone...Having said that, bullet construction is important and always will be. Heavier bullets is too simplistic a term to use, though. A bullet with better "sectional density" is what is needed. A 147 grain 9mm bullet has better sectional density than a 155 or even 165 grain .40 caliber bullet, despite the lighter weight. It has better sectional density than a 185 grain .45 bullet as well.

I will say this much: Pick the right ammo in your preferred caliber. Pick the right weapon platform.

Some will swear by 7+1 in .45 flavor. It works. Others will swear by 17+1 in 9mm. It works, too. Factor in one reload apiece and you're talking the difference between how many targets each person can engage. If both people can shoot and shoot well, then the problem should be solveable or escapable. One thing cannot be argued: all else being equal (shot placement, bullet effectiveness, etc), 35 rounds beats 15 if you know what I'm saying.

FMJ is about the worst performing pistol ammunition ever developed for use against people, which is why so much money has gone into the development of JHP ammunition.

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And, now, back to the real world!

I carry 45 acp FMJ ball for SD. It's great and deadly stuff with no liabilities anymore significant than any other pistol ammunition. What makes you (and so many other people) think that JHP's somehow magically don't pass through targets? JHP's pass through plenty of targets, and all of the time too. In any crowded urban environment you're no safer ducking from flying JHP's than you are from ducking FMJ's. If you believe otherwise, well, you're kidding yourself.

As a matter of fact, I'm positive that many many people are alive today because they were hit with JHP's rather than FMJ's which would have definitely killed them - I'm positive of this. (You heard it here, first!)

No ninja implications intended, but I have read in several Special Forces books how the US Military gives out a stipend to Delta operatives to customize 1911's chambered in .45 because of the lack of 9mm's stopping power. Like I said, it is what I have read, not what I know.

But then again, according to the gov't "Delta Force does not exist".

I carry 45 acp FMJ ball for SD. It's great and deadly stuff with no liabilities anymore significant than any other pistol ammunition. What makes you (and so many other people) think that JHP's somehow magically don't pass through targets? JHP's pass through plenty of targets, and all of the time too. In any crowded urban environment you're no safer ducking from flying JHP's than you are from ducking FMJ's. If you believe otherwise, well, you're kidding yourself.

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I just think that a bullet making smaller than caliber wounds will generally be outpaced by a bullet that makes larger than caliber wounds.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/LosAngelesWBW.pdf

This test shows otherwise. 0.771" expansion for 9mm and 1.190" for the .45, that's a big difference.

The 9mm is plenty with modern, expanding ammo. If it is not good enough for you, you can make the jump to 10mm for a real difference in power. It will give you a roughly 100% increase in energy over 9mm. The good 'ol 45 acp will only provide 25-35% more juice.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/LosAngelesWBW.pdf

This test shows otherwise. 0.771" expansion for 9mm and 1.190" for the .45, that's a big difference.

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I have to admit, that seems pretty exaggerated on both of those diameters. I wonder if they mixed it to an excessively high density.

Also, how in gods name did they get a retained weight of more than 100%???

Between service calibers, shot placement and penetration matters most. Not caliber.

All I can say is: what a bunch of crap.

Big bullet, big hole. Smaller bullet, smaller hole.

Given the 9mm logic here I ought to hunt grizzly bears with a .22 rimfire.

You hit a griz in the head with a .22 and it will expand to an inch!

That ought to kill an elephant!

Just another "My 9 is as good as your .45," dumb thread.

Your 9 is cheaper than my .45.

It does not do anything as well as my .45. It is just cheaper.

If it were more accurate it would dominate Camp Perry. Does it do that? No.

If it was more effective would this argument exist? No.

My .22 is better than your 9mm - because I'm a better shot. My .45 is better than your 9mm because I'm a better shot and it makes a bigger hole.

My 8mm Mauser is better than either because I can take you out at 300 yards and you will never hear the sound of the rifle.

My .32 ACP pocket gun is better because you'll never see it coming.

What a I really want is a 9mm that expands to at least 6 inches and is smaller than my .32 pocket gun with night sights, ambidextrous safety, an extended mag release and extended slide release, fiber optic/tritium sights and a grip that expands to the right size to fit my hand as soon as I draw it from my watch pocket.

Shoot your 9s - have fun.

Dream on about how wondrous they are.

What about this...

The belief that big, slow bullets beat small, fast bullet every time is wrong. That is too simplistic view. Using this logic could bring some people to the conculsion that it would be better to be shot with a .338 rifle than the .45 acp. These people would be very, very wrong. If you want stopping power, go for a shot gun, or even better, a rifle.

Statistically, 125 grain .357 magnum loads are the top ranked hand gun for "stopping power". You can make an argument against using the .357 magnum because of it's recoil and muzzle blast, but the fact remains that .357 magnum packs a lot more power than .45 acp. A lot more people hunt with .357 magnum than .45 acp for a reason.

Here is a chart of momentums that one of the guys at another forum came up with. Most .357 magnum loads in the chart generate more momentum than most of the .45 acp loads. This is true in spite of the fact that these bullets are smaller.

I know that this a 9mm vs. .45 acp, but some of the arguments used against the 9mm don't really hold up that well when using the same logic with .357 magnum loads.

In spite of what I just wrote, I am not for or against the .45 acp cartridge. I personally would prefer the 9 mm load listed. Less recoil for me means, better followup shots (in a polymer gun - I am not a 1911 guy - too expensive).

My take is that people should shoot the cartridge that they feel comfortable with in a gun that they are comfortable shooting. Let the caliber wars rage on and ignore them. The bottom line is that if someone was shooting a gun at me, I wouldn't stop and think, " Oh, I'm okay, this is medium bore, 9 mm hand gun". I'd get the heck out of there if I could and pray like crazy.


http://www.rugerforum.net/showthread.php?t=7566

The belief that big, slow bullets beat small, fast bullet every time is wrong. That is too simplistic view.

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...and the opposite is also not true, and overly simplistic. If you take either to the extremes you end up being wayyy wrong in both cases.

People love to go to the analogy of a .223 compared to a baseball when they are in the 9mm camp and a .22 to 45 when they are in the .45 camp.

The truth is, these rounds are closer to each other, in efficacy, than most people would like to believe.

Both have advantages under certain circumstances.

Advantage of lighter faster smaller diameter 9mm luger.

1. Greater penetration through hard thin barriers...better "piercing" ability.
2. Lighter recoil for greater control.
3. Higher capacity in the same size package.

Advantages of .45 acp.

1. Greater penetration through bone and thicker barrier materials and in flesh.
2. Wider wound cavity.

These are "general" differences, comparing the best loads in each. Of course you can find an instance where a 9mm would out penetrate a .45 and where a .45 might have lower recoil...but those are cases where you are not comparing them on equal footing.

There may be a difference in a real world situation, but it could go either way. For example a .45 might cause a BG to be incapacitated a quarter second faster thereby preventing a return fire round. On the other hand, a high velocity 9mm might penetrate a door and wound the BG which might cause him to retreat.

People have their reasons for picking their favorite round and while these threads can be enlightening, they generally turn into a p_ssing match and don't change anyone's opinions.

Consider this: will the best performing 9mm ammunition be equally effective on 4-legged targets as the best performing .45 ammunition? If it is, then it will be equally effective on 2-legged targets. If you're in the woods, which would you carry if limited to the two choices?

I can live comfortably with anything from 9mm/.38 +P on up, assuming good bullet construction, if the individual weapon is reliable, controllable, and accurate in my hands. I believe there are merits to both the light-and-fast and to the heavy-and-wide arguments; two paths to the same goal. There are instances in which one type of ammo will perform better than the other.

Notably, the major ammo companies have generally fine-tuned their premium-bullet loads to penetrate to about the same depth in ordnance gelatin. So, the main downrange differences remaining are things like trajectory and hard-cover penetration. There also remains the differences in how the weapon behaves when shooting, which is a major factor for some. There is certainly a fatigue factor when practicing with larger-bore and magnum ammo. I reach a point of fatigue much earlier now, as I am getting older, and frailty is beginning to creep up on me. (Hey, SIG, hurry up with the P229 .22 LR conversion units!)

I like, and use, mostly .357 mag and .40 S&W. I like revolvers, but the N-frames are too big for my hands, or more specifically, my fingers are too short, so .357 gives me power in a DA revolver. To go bigger-bore, I must go to either single-action revolvers, or autoloaders. My agency specifies duty pistols in .40 S&W, so that decision is made for me. My sentimental favorites are .45 ACP and 10mm, but I don't lay awake at night, worrying about the difference.

Firstly, the data is incomplete. There are no velocities listed for the .45

Firstly, the data is incomplete. There are no velocities listed for the .45.

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Interesting for data consistancy, but irrelivant in terms of tissue destruction at service pistol velocities. Results are what is important, not so much what the bullet did to get there unless you are wanting to calculate recoil. Temporary cavity stretch would be also be an important result if we were looking at rifle rounds or super handgun magnums like the .500S&W.

Still not as simplistic as hole size. The 45 still is heavier and has more momentum behind it. More bone breaking potential, not just glancing off.

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I agree with this and that's why I prefer the .45 when possible.

I was shooting a metal 9mm Beretta today with +P and a metal 1911 with +P .45. Both of the guns weigh about the same. But the 1911 kicked like a mule compared to the 9mm as usual. You can't tell me that means nothing.

A bigger, heavier bullet does not stop as fast or get deflected as easily. And as mentioned, it's already big to begin with.

I know that I have seen actual gel tests with 9mm and 45 loads on this site from a member. I would have to search to find...but I did see the info here on sometime.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=177494&highlight=9mm+gel+tests

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271509&highlight=gold+dot+gel+tests

I know I have seen even more gel test on here but dont recall the member.

Does the following results from brassfetcher.com mean that the 9mm Golden Saber is as effective as a .45ACP Gold Dot?

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HELL NO!

Interesting for data consistancy, but irrelivant in terms of tissue destruction at service pistol velocities. Results are what is important, not so much what the bullet did to get there unless you are wanting to calculate recoil. Temporary cavity stretch would be also be an important result if we were looking at rifle rounds or super handgun magnums like the .500S&W.

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Data consistency is kind of important when you are asked to compare data.

Does the following results from brassfetcher.com mean...

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How can you say data consistency is irrelevant when all you have to compare is data? The results are irrelevant when you have to make assumptions on how they were achieved. You assume service pistol velocities, a good, logical assumption, but given the OP's posted data it is only an assumption. I want to assume the .45 would cause a massive temporary wound cavity, that on a human being would blow all his internal organs out his nose.

You can't say this comparison of data proves anything when it leaves out an important component that you replace with an assumption.

Besides, jello don't fight back.

Today's modern hollow point ammunition can generally be relied upon to expand admirably and reliably, and to make a hole that is larger than itself.

But expansion not withstanding, and all the jello tests aside, the name of the game is still energy dump......the round that delivers the most kinetic energy to the formerly happy-go-lucky evil doer.

A 55 grain rifle bullet traveling at 3300+ feet per second hits home with 1330 foot pounds of kinetic energy. Few would argue that this would not put a real hurt on you.

A 438 grain 12 gauge shotgun slug at 1560 feet per second whacks you with 2366 foot pounds of kinetic energy. Yes, that would hurt too.

A 575 grain Civil War Minie Ball typically reached 950 feet per second and it hit home with 1152 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This bullet was known for crushing bone and producing significant wound trauma.

A 200 grain Speer Gold Dot from a .45ACP hits home with 518 foot pounds of kinetic energy (which is a telling difference between a rifle and a handgun).

A 124 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 9mm +p hits home with 410 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 147 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 9mm standard velocity round hits home with 317 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 125 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 38 Special +P hits home with 248 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 90 grain Speer Gold Dot from a .380ACP hits home with 196 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

In my book, all else being equal (shot placement, expansion) the more energy dump you have in the body, the more kinetic energy the body experiences, the more effectiveness you are likely to see.

With modern ammo, it's less of a caliber issue these days, and instead, it's an energy issue.

And yes, kinetic energy is what drives penetration.

But expansion not withstanding, and all the jello tests aside, the name of the game is still energy dump......the round that delivers the most kinetic energy to the formerly happy-go-lucky evil doer.

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The FBI, in their study of pistol round efficacy, directly dispute this. They claimed the best measure of effectiveness was effective penetration, and wound channel size and that kinetic energy was a poor measure of effectiveness.

Of course, once again, you can take this to extremes, and show a super high kinetic energy rifle round beating a pistol round, but they were, and we are talking about pistol rounds.

Gelatin tests were invented to be the most economical measure of wound channel size and depth. Fabric was added to the front of the Gelatin, when it was learned that fabric can cause some hollow points to be less effective expanders.

Given the great historic data, and the correlation in animal tests, I would trust gelatin testing as a good means of comparing the efficacy between JHP handgun rounds.

In most tests, it has been shown that the 9mm does meet the FBI's requirements. It also shows that the best 45's exceed the best 9mm's in wound channel size.

Will the difference save a person's life? Not likely. But, not impossible.

In my book, all else being equal (shot placement, expansion) the more energy dump you have in the body, the more kinetic energy the body experiences, the more effectiveness you are likely to see.

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Please expound upon this so called "energy dump". Kinetic energy is simply a measurement of the force behind the bullet doing the work of expansion and penetration. At what approximate number of foot-pounds of energy does hydrostatic shock become a permanent wounding mechanism?

Today's modern hollow point ammunition can generally be relied upon to expand admirably and reliably, and to make a hole that is larger than itself.

But expansion not withstanding, and all the jello tests aside, the name of the game is still energy dump......the round that delivers the most kinetic energy to the formerly happy-go-lucky evil doer.

A 55 grain rifle bullet traveling at 3300+ feet per second hits home with 1330 foot pounds of kinetic energy. Few would argue that this would not put a real hurt on you.

A 438 grain 12 gauge shotgun slug at 1560 feet per second whacks you with 2366 foot pounds of kinetic energy. Yes, that would hurt too.

A 575 grain Civil War Minie Ball typically reached 950 feet per second and it hit home with 1152 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This bullet was known for crushing bone and producing significant wound trauma.

A 200 grain Speer Gold Dot from a .45ACP hits home with 518 foot pounds of kinetic energy (which is a telling difference between a rifle and a handgun).

A 124 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 9mm +p hits home with 410 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 147 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 9mm standard velocity round hits home with 317 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 125 grain Speer Gold Dot from a 38 Special +P hits home with 248 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

A 90 grain Speer Gold Dot from a .380ACP hits home with 196 foot pounds of kinetic energy.

In my book, all else being equal (shot placement, expansion) the more energy dump you have in the body, the more kinetic energy the body experiences, the more effectiveness you are likely to see.

With modern ammo, it's less of a caliber issue these days, and instead, it's an energy issue.

And yes, kinetic energy is what drives penetration.

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20 years ago when energy dump was all the rage in the law enforcement community, agencies were picking light and fast ammunition. The most famous of these is the 1986 Miami shootout in which the agents were carrying Winchester 9mm 115gr STs in their Sig P226s. This ammunition had what you might consider good "energy dump". The result was both agents getting killed because their ammunition was designed for energy dump rather than penetration. If they had been using 124gr or 147gr ammunition, maybe the shot Jerry Grove made would have penetrate an extra 2" and taken out the perps heart.

Then we have the .357magnum....the legendary manstopper with incredible stopping power..... The .357magnum has a documented history of putting the badguy down well, but it is also has a history of spectacular failures to put down the badguy. One of the most famous is the Texas highway patrol officer in 1993 who emptied his .357mag revolver with 125gr Hydrashoks into a perp and the perp still managed to wound the officer and run away in to the woods, later dieing of blood loss. The officer's 6 shots hit the perps torso 4 times taking out one lung, blowing through his stomach, and his liver. However, no hits to the aorta or CNS. There was no observable "knock-down power" or energy dump effects. The officer reported that the perp didn't even look phased and a follow up medical exam stated that the perp was not any any kind of drugs or alcohol and that all 4 torso remained in the perps body with good expansion. The effectivenss of the .357mag was well earned in the 1970s due to its ability to more reliably open up early hollow point designs. Slower velocity cartridges could not do this at the time, so the .357mag seemed to be well ahead in those years. This is not the case any more. A modern well engineered .45acp JHP has much more potential at rapid incapacitation than a .357mag does. The measurable advantage the .357mag and.357sig have over the .45acp is that they can penetrate hard barriers better than the .45. Even so, I still generally prefer to use 9mm or .40S&W for better platform characteristics.

For example, here are the lasted Winchester Ranger Bonded loads:
9mm+P 124gr(1180fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Through Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Through Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Through Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Through Steel: 22”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr(995)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Through Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Through Steel: 19”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Through Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Through Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Through Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Through Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr(1070fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Through Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Through Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Through Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Through Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”


Here's a good read if you are not familiar:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Energy dump has been discredited with most major ballistic research institutions like the Firearms Institute and the National Defense Industrial Association which provide research directly to the Department of Defense and the FBI. It has also been discarded by major LE agencies like the FBI, CIA, DHS, DOI, DOD, and many others. There are a few holdouts which include Texas DPS, ICE, and other small agencies which do not have the resources to really examine the problems associated with light and fast rounds that look good on paper, and when shooting at cars in a junkyard. A lot of modern lighter loads can still meet the penetration minimum of 12" in ballistic gel, so these agencies are less likely to suffer a incident gone bad due to poor ammunition performance. However, the overall edge goes to the larger caliber.

I thought threads like this were thoroughly worn out in the 90's.