I have been considering reasons for CCW licensing...

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The "no felons" provision is already a slippery slope. This list of felonies on the books grows every year. And I could see this prohibition being abused.

After all, someone who lied on a federal form in all likelihood no bodily danger to others, and should not be prohibited from protecting himself/herself from others.

I know that there are ways for people to restore their gun rights after they have served their time, but they are very costly, and thus discriminatory.
 
Originally posted by Loosed Horse: But for a CCW, one is going to carry into public areas (where, oh, I don't know, maybe I or my kids will be), so I don't mind having a little extra testing along the lines of:

1. Not a felon (okay: the federal laws and NICS should take care of that at time of purchase).
2. Not a nut job (I mean emotionally disturbed person.)
3. Have some vague idea of use-of-lethal-force laws.
4. Have some ability to hit a target (note: this test should NEVER be more rigorous than what is given to the local LEOs. I had to do such a test for my first CCW, got a 30-shot 297/300--used a gun I'd never seen before, but that's no excuse: I jerked three shots. Later I found out that passing was 210/300. I could have hit the OTHER guy's target 8 times, and still passed!) [emphasis mine]

Agree!

I encounter enough people, face to face and virtually, who (1) clearly but ignorantly believe that they have the right to use deadly force to protect property or to detain persons at gun-point, or are justified in grabbing a gun and going to investigate potential malfeasance; and who (2) envision themselves being legally justified in participating in long-range gunfights or opening fire when they see a robbery about to occur; that it is clear to me that education prior to carrying, and therefore the requirement for a permit to carry, is absolutely essential to public safety and to law and order.

Absent same, the inescapable outcome would be (1) unjustified death and injury, (2) the prosecution and incarceration of those who brandish and shoot (not to mention the effect of civil remedies), and (3), the ultimate loss of the general right to carry concealed by the general populace.

Where I live, a "shall issue" law was placed on the ballot and narrowly defeated some years ago. The publicity put out by opponents was steeped in the usual "wild west" hysteria. When a law was later enacted by the legislature, an eight hour course requirement was included; about half is devoted to legal aspects.

I occasionally print out and show people several of the articles listed at the top of this page from The Cornered Cat. I's amazing how often this turns out to be a learning experience for my friends.

http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx#Legal
 
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(1) clearly but ignorantly believe that they have the right to use deadly force to protect property or to detain persons at gun-point, or are justified in grabbing a gun and going to investigate potential malfeasance;

Depends on where you are. In TX, it is legal to use deadly force to protect property, detain persons at gun-point and it is legal to "grab a gun" and go investigate potential malfeasance. For example, if my neighbor has asked me to watch out for his place (he has) and I see someone at his place when he's gone, I can "grab a gun" and go check it out. If the situation warrants, I can legally hold any trespassers at gun-point until law enforcement shows up. Even in CA I could hold a home invader at gun point until the police arrived. Some people think that holding a BG for law enforcement is better than shooting them....

(2) envision themselves being legally justified in participating in long-range gunfights or opening fire when they see a robbery about to occur;...

I can also "grab a gun" and use it to stop a robbery.

For those who believe that more people carrying doesn't help deter crime, I suggest reading More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws by John R. Lott Jr.
 
Cliff, Texas is an exception, if not the exception, but even there, there are enough conditions on justifiability to present a clear case for the need for education.

In most places the use of deadly force to protect property is specifically proscribed, and in most places holding someone is a good way to get charged with kidnapping. Even in Texas you would want to know the specific conditions under which you can do either.

I am in full agreement with your comment on Lott.

You may well have seen this, but if others haven't, it's worth having some of the key facts at hand the next time the subject comes up in conversation with someone who knows only the media side of the story:

http://www.gunfacts.info/

It is well worth downloading the .pdf file and taking the time to study it.
 
As always, your thoughts are welcome.

I see no purpose whatsoever in permits.I believe our collegues in Alaska and Vermont have got it right,although even there off limit infringement areas exist.
I doubt if having millions of people secure permits to be able to carry concealed or open haved saved many numbers of lives, if any.
It always comes back to "shall not be infringed".
Thank you for starting this very interesting thread,Shooter.:)

BTW,excellent reasoning, No Fear:
The truly bad people you describe will carry ANYWAY if they want to. So there goes all the "benefits" of the license. Furthermore, people who are the most dangerous on the roads frequently don't have valid licenses (illegals and repeat DUIers come to mind).

Licenses are a way that government tortures the good people while using the bad people as an excuse, those same bad people who don't bother to get the license anyway.

Fine first post.Welcome to THR.
 
i am going to make this short and sweet. personally think the reason they require ccw licenses is for the police. so if they find you with a gun in your pocket, and have a license for it, they can be assured that you are probably a good guy. if they catch you with a gun in your pocket, without a license, they know you are a criminal, and are going directly to jail. plain and simple, black and white. shouldn't all of our laws be that way?!
 
i am going to make this short and sweet. personally think the reason they require ccw licenses is for the police. so if they find you with a gun in your pocket, and have a license for it, they can be assured that you are probably a good guy. if they catch you with a gun in your pocket, without a license, they know you are a criminal, and are going directly to jail. plain and simple, black and white. shouldn't all of our laws be that way?!

moooose ,the problem with that reasoning is if licenses(permits)weren't required why would you be a criminal if stopped by the police without a permit!:D
How do the Alaska and Vermont police handle this?No permits are required in those states.
It's easy.If you have no criminal record,no priors,no outstanding warrants,you are not a criminal.
And look at all the OC states where for years carrying without a permit has been legal.NM,AZ,etc.
 
I'm just glad I live in a state where I can carry a concealed weapon in my vehicle without a permit. I refuse to give into the idea that my rights are a privledge and I have to get permission to do anything in what is becoming a monarchy government instead of a democracy.
They need to remember it is WE THE PEOPLE,not WE THE GOVERNMENT.
 
licensing is just another government scam. some people say: "well, you need a license to drive," but driving a car is a privilege, not a right. these days, the only thing i need my license for is to drive while armed; i open carry now, when weather permits. i don't belive we should need a permit, license or any other document to carry a gun. a background check should be all that's needed. in PA, the background check for a license is the same as the one used to buy a gun. why do i need to pay for the same process twice?
 
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Can't argue with that. But, it has been proven that carrying, be it open or concealed, does deter crime and increase the public safety.


actually just the opposite. it has been proven that guns play no role in crime stats... even by the NRA...but they tend to forget that part on a regular basis... sounds alot like the other groups... you know like brady...
TAB, do you have a cite for your claim?
Actually, "the opposite" would be to say that "carrying encourages crime and reduces public safety".

I always thought there was a correlation between crime rates and the areas that adopted more lenient carry laws. In fact, I have heard a radio talk-show host state that "in EVERY locale where gun ownership restrictions have been reduced, the amount of violent crime has decreased". He didn't say that happened in 50% or 75% or 90%, which would have been outstanding!
Here is JUST ONE piece of citable material I found to support my impressions...
-"60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed." -James Wright and Peter Rossi, “Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms”, New York: Aldine, 1986

But you are saying the OPPOSITE is true?

I can tell you one good thing that comes from lic where a class is needed( assuming its a good class) At the very least laws about carrying have been tuaght, hopeful some basic SD theroy and shooting skills. Rather we like it or not CCW is a privlage, not a right.

"CCW is a privilege"? I don't know what part of it you are arguing, so...
Carry=bear. Are you arguing that part of it? Or, are you arguing that the second of our Bill of Rights is, in fact, not a right? Some would say that the ability to defend oneself is a "God given right". In many people's eyes, carrying (bearing) a gun enables them to defend themselves and retain that God given right (self defense). Are you arguing that there is no relation between carrying a gun and one's ability to defend oneself?

Maybe you are arguing that CCW has become a privilege these days?
 
I'm completely with Loosedhorse, Schmidlin and Kleanbore.

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I don't want honest folks carrying loaded guns in public where, if they use them, they just might be using me, my wife, my mother, my friends or someone else I love, as the backstop, unless they have demonstrated that they have at least minimal competence and some good idea about when and how they can, and can not, legally use their weapons.

And I'm personally tired of all these extravagant claims of right from the "training? we don't need no stinkin' training" crowd. The Second Amendment and your God given right of self defense is not license to endanger the innocent.

If someone in a shall issue state wants to challenge the permit requirement as a violation of his Second Amendment rights, he's of course welcome to go to -- if he has enough money. I don't think he'll get anywhere.
 
Since we're talking personal opinions here:

My personal opinion is that it should be a persons own responsibility to know the laws concerning carry in any and all areas they plan on carrying. As a matter of fact, neither of the CCW/CHL courses I've taken covered all of the laws in the state I've taken the course in - I've had to do addtional research into the laws, and I still don't know them all in either state.

I do a bit of traveling to different states. It is my responsibility to research and know the laws in the different areas I travel in or through.

There are some who don't feel "comfortable" around someone who hasn't taken a course and been taught the law. How do ya'll feel about travelers who have a permit, just not one from your state? As has been pointed out, the laws where I live are different from where you may live, sometimes drastically different. Do we need to have a class on your laws before we can travel to and carry in your state? Or should it be our own responsibility to learn your local laws before traveling there? And, if that's the case, why can't someone who lives in your area do their own research into the law instead of going to a state mandated class?

Granted, Alaska & Vermont don't have large populations when compared with other states, but... how often do we hear of someone using a handgun when having a permit would have stopped them?

...they just might be using me, my wife, my mother, my friends or someone else I love, as the backstop....

Earlier I mentioned a case in AZ where LEO had a shootout with a suspect and the only person hit was a kid in his bedroom across the street. That is not the only time law enforcement officers have hit someone they weren't aiming for. Are private citizens going to be trained better than law enforcement officers, so that we always hit our target? If so, how??? Semi-annual training maybe? - 'cause anything less than that and you're going to loose your edge. And is the training going to include stress inducing elements? During a situation where your handgun comes into play you're sure as heck going to be under a ton of stress. Just popping holes in paper is not going to prepare anyone for such a situation. And before you go there, keep in mind that at least one advanced training course I've looked into won't take someone who is unable to hit the ground rolling, jump up & shoot; which includes a lot of older folk. So, are you planning to take away the ability to carry from a large portion of the population because they can't take the training course?

The Second Amendment does not give anyone the right to injure an innocent person. It also does not specifically give the government the right or ability to regulate how we can carry, or even when we can carry.

I've noticed that no one has addressed the fact that it cost almost $300 to get a permit here - and they're not free anywhere. (Can't count Alaska or Vermont, because they don't have permits). This in itself can prevent some individuals from carrying, they simply cannot afford the cost of getting a permit. How would you "permit required" folks fix this so everyone who wants to can afford to carry?

This country seems to be getting more and more into the mind-set of "safety for everyone, at all times, even at the expense of "some" of our freedom" and "the government will take care of it". What ever happened to personal responsibility and looking out for yourself, family and neighbors? Is everyone really that scared all the time? "OMG, s/he might be carrying a gun! And they might decide to use it to stop a criminal!! And they might miss!!! And they might hit ME!!!! OMG!!!!!" Or, "OMG, s/he might be carrying a gun! And they might decide to walk into a liquor store!! And, and, and - they might buy a bottle of beer!!! OMG!!!!"
 
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I'm completely with Loosedhorse, Schmidlin and Kleanbore.

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I don't want honest folks carrying loaded guns in public where, if they use them, they just might be using me, my wife, my mother, my friends or someone else I love, as the backstop, unless they have demonstrated that they have at least minimal competence and some good idea about when and how they can, and can not, legally use their weapons.

And I'm personally tired of all these extravagant claims of right from the "training? we don't need no stinkin' training" crowd. The Second Amendment and your God given right of self defense is not license to endanger the innocent.

If someone in a shall issue state wants to challenge the permit requirement as a violation of his Second Amendment rights, he's of course welcome to go to -- if he has enough money. I don't think he'll get anywhere.
Ok, I'll take it a step further. Based on your statements, it seems that you uphold that each state may require their own license. So, if you live at the junction of a few states, you need to jump through hoops 3 times, to be allowed to carry daily. Then, what if you travel to a few states for your work? Take a guess how many states (or even countries!) honor my driving license.

I am certainly NOT against training. However, some of these arguments tend to sound like the liberals argument against allowing CCWs in schools. It goes like this... "Are you crazy?!? You suggest that we GIVE teachers guns when they enter schools?!?" :banghead: When the government allows the people to retain the right of carrying, they are not endorsing, supporting, or forcing people to carry. Much of the argument here seems to suggest that if the licensing laws were dropped, "everyone who saw a cool gun in a movie" would go out and start carrying. Is that how it is in AK and VT??
 
TAB---CCW is a privlage, not a right,,but the 2A gives us the "right"!
There should be NO restrictions on law abbidding citizens concerning "our rights" to our 2A.
With more of "us" "packing" the crimes against us have gone down, and the bad guys are getting the "message"....In many places,,"we" are running the BG's out of Dodge.
Everybody knows where there are the least gun laws, there is less crime.
The "only" reason we have to get permits or license is to give more money to our goverment, and our goverment SHOULD NOT HAVE any control over our 2A "rights".
 
ShooterMcGavin,

[1] I never said that I was against reciprocity. As with drivers licenses, I also think that each state should recognize other states' carry permits.

[2] And how is expecting people who want to carry around loaded guns in public should meet some competency standard like a "liberal argument against teachers having guns"? We expect people who drive cars on public roads to qualify. We expect LEO to be trained and periodically qualify with their weapons.

[3] Alaska and Vermont arguably present unique cases, both in terms of population density and demographics. And it still doesn't change the fundamental proposition that, in my view, it is absolutely appropriate to expect, as a condition of legally carrying a loaded gun in public, one should be required to demonstrate competence, a clean record and an basic understanding of the law.

And CliffH, traveling with a gun should be no different than drive in other states. You're responsible for knowing the laws of the state you're in, but you've also already qualified in your home state.
 
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On Fiddletown's points:

1) OK. Now, what about those (free) states (Alaska & Vermont) who don't even issue a permit? What are those folks to do?

2) See my previous (two) cite(s) of just one instance of competency of LEO. Every gun owner I know takes it upon themselves to keep up on their handgun proficiency - without being required to by the state - even those who don't carry.

3) Again, see my cite above re: competency. Not trying to take this thread too far off topic: if you're not in jail or a mental institution you should be fine for owning/carrying a handgun. And if it's my responsibility to learn the laws of another state to travel there - without the government requiring that I do so - by what right does the governement get to interfere by forcing me to attend classes to learn the laws of where I live?
 
[3] Alaska and Vermont arguably present unique cases, both in terms of population density and demographics. And it still doesn't change the fundament proposition that, in my view, it is absolutely appropriate to expect, as a condition of legally carrying a loaded gun in public, one should be required to demonstrate competence, a clean record and an basic understanding of the law.

Well,that is a breath of fresh air from you,fiddletown.:D
But we'll just gentlemanly have to agree to disagree on the merits of training and the need for permits to protect the innocent.I just love the demographic's argument.:rolleyes:
That sounds like the lead in to "Gangbusters",1949!.I can still hear Walter Winchell squawking"The G-Men in the fight against crime to protect the innocent!"
Those were the days.You sadly, missed it all.;)
 
Whether or not the knowledge that bad guys have that there are good citizens carrying concealed has thwarted any crimes lies within the criminals mind. Fact is, we'll never know how many crimes would've been committed, that were'nt, because of CCW.
 
CCW is a privlage, not a right,,but the 2A gives us the "right"!
If I may be a bit nit-picky here...
I don't agree. The right to self-defense is a RIGHT. That right, through the keeping and bearing of arms is not given to us by the 2nd A. The right is preserved by the 2nd A.

[2] And how is expecting people who want to carry around loaded guns in public should meet some competency standard like a "liberal argument against teachers having guns"?
I tried to explain that (perhaps poorly) in the statements following that, here:
When the government allows the people to retain the right of carrying, they are not endorsing, supporting, or forcing people to carry.
Some liberals tend to think that allowing CCW in schools, by those who choose and who are already legal license holders, is the equivalent of "giving guns to teachers". Also, some people who argue that getting rid of the requirement for licenses will mean that 'everyone' goes out carrying a gun, as if the government is endorsing the carrying of guns. I am not claiming that you are a liberal or that you have a weak stance in this issue. Sorry if that was taken in an offensive manner.

Generally, I think lawful people carry guns lawfully. Unlawful people carry guns unlawfully, but there is no way to stop them from carrying guns. Those who carry lawfully, do so with the intent to find out what is the law, follow the law, and keep their actions from harming the lives of innocent people around them.

[3] Alaska and Vermont arguably present unique cases, both in terms of population density and demographics. And it still doesn't change the fundament proposition that, in my view, it is absolutely appropriate to expect, as a condition of legally carrying a loaded gun in public, one should be required to demonstrate competence, a clean record and an basic understanding of the law.
As an aside... What should be the penalty for violating that law? Assume we are talking about a person with a completely clean past record, and discovered while not in the commission of a crime. Should they be given a felony record or a $100 fine?

I have NO PROBLEM OR DISAGREEMENT with background checks. In these examples, we are talking about a person with a great propensity to continue their lawful ways while carrying (because they have been law-abiding for their previous 20+ years). As such, pulling out their gun to save their life or the life of an innocent person does not require that they make bulls-eye shots at 20 yards.

I can't say "I don't agree", regarding training. I guess I'm stuck on the fact that it is another way to control and to take away our right.
 
I can't say "I don't agree", regarding training. I guess I'm stuck on the fact that it is another way to control and to take away our right.

Cool.Now you are beginning to realize what the Founder's meant in 1791 by "shall not be infringed".
Four simple words, but not understandable by so many millions of people,including so many on this very forum.
 
CliffH said:
...Are private citizens going to be trained better than law enforcement officers, so that we always hit our target? If so, how??? Semi-annual training maybe? - 'cause anything less than that and you're going to loose your edge. And is the training going to include stress inducing elements? During a situation where your handgun comes into play you're sure as heck going to be under a ton of stress. Just popping holes in paper is not going to prepare anyone for such a situation...
And that's a good reason not to require any training? So the fact that we're not going to be able to turn every armed citizen to be a member of the FBI HRT is a reason not to require some basic level of competence. Preposterous.

Duke Junior said:
...Now you are beginning to realize what the Founder's meant in 1791 by "shall not be infringed".
Four simple words, but not understandable by so many millions of people,including so many on this very forum....
Of course whatever you, and some others here may think, the courts will in fact, consistent with well settled principles of constitutional law, permit regulation of the right to keep and bear arms. It is well settled that Constitutionally protected rights are subject to regulation according to certain standards.

And what the courts think and do trumps what you think and say here. What the courts do will affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Your opinions as expressed here do not.

I think that under existing principles of constitutional law, shall issue carry permit laws and associated training requirements will pass muster. If you think they're unconstitutional, and you live in a state with one, challenge it in court and see how far you get. And if your response is something like "I won't participate in a corrupt...yada, yada...", well, I guess you don't live on the same planet I do, because that's how things are done where I live.
 
Some might say it is unconstitutional, and I agree it may be.

A large part of CCW licensing is for officer safety. It's also a stay out jail card because most areas prohibit concealed carry.

I believe part of CCW is to hold good citizens accountable. " You can carry a gun to defend yourself, but keep this in mind....we are watching you ". Idealistically, everyone is responsible enough to carry a weapon, but I've seen too many stupid people with guns. Perhaps the few hundred dollars it takes to get the permit scares away those same lazy complacent people.

It takes a right and makes it a privilege. As long as it doesn't become any more restrictive than it is, it's probably not a big deal. But if the lists a CCW holders is used against then for the purposes of disarmament, the gov't has gone too far.
 
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