Tommy gun in WWII

"...Did soldiers have a preference or could they switch out?..." Nope. During W. W. II, weapons were issued according to the job a PBI(infantry, poor bloody) troopie was doing and his training, according to the TO&E of a unit. So many riflemen per unit issued with M1's, so many BAR's per unit(LMG's) officers issued pistols or maybe a carbine. That lasted until combat ensued. If a troopied didn't want to lug an 8 or 9 pound M1, he picked up or traded for what he wanted. The PBI carried their whole world on their backs. Getting ammo was not an issue. A 'Chopper', despite the firepower, weighs 12 pounds empty. The M1 carbine weighs 6 lbs with nearly the same firepower and greater range.
"...I hope these comments prove useful..." Hi. Logistics was a nightmare for the entire Allied effort due primarily to Montgomery's ego. He ignored the need for major ports.
"...This is one of the reasons why the U.S. eventually switched to an intermediate round, often referred to as an assault rifle round..." It's why NATO specs were invented. Everybody in NATO uses the same rifle ammo. The U.S. jammed the 7.62/.308 down other NATO country's throats and later the 5.56 for political reasons. Military considerations had nothing to do with it. There were several 7mm cartridges being developed that were better or European battle fields than either American cartridge.
There's no such thing as an assault round. Well, except for the 7.62 x 39 and 7.92 Kurtz. An assault rifle is a select fire rifle using the same calibre bullet as the PBI rifle, but in a shorter case.
"...M1917 Colt..." That's a revolver.
"...why they are called submachine guns?..." MG's use rifle cartridges. SMG's use pistol cartridges.

http://www.easy39th.com/inventory.php

M1928 and M1A1 Thompson Submachinegun
The famous "Tommy Gun", this was the standard submachine gun for much of the war. Heavy, complicated, but firing the man stopping .45 caliber round, it was popular with most GIs. Two versions were issued, the older "gangster" version, the M1928, with both vertical forward grip and standard military grip, and the military issue M1A1. Both saw wide service with the U.S. Army and were a commodity at the front. The M1928 could use both large drum magazines, as well as 20 and 30 round stick magazines. The M1A1 could only use the stick magazines. Contrary to popular belief these weapons were not "officer and NCO only" weapons. Officers by TO&E were issued M1 carbines, and NCOs were issued M1 rifles. Instead, the company kept a pool of 6 submachine guns, and issued them out as needed. Sometimes this did result in leaders carrying them, other times not.

rainbowbob said:

Can anyone say why they are called submachine guns?

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machineguns fire a regular rifle round.
Submachineguns fire a pistol round.

rainbowbob said:

Can anyone say why they are called submachine guns?

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Marketing. Post WW1, Thompson was trying to sell his guns. Machineguns were big, heavy, long-ranged things. Machinepistols were full-auto pistols.

used one on a range lovely toy not sure Id want to carry it in combat though.
grandad carried it and lost the sten they tried to get him to replace it with

Originally Posted by rainbowbob
Can anyone say why they are called submachine guns?

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Machineguns were support weapons firing rifle (not puny modern "assault rifle" calibers but actual battle rifle calibers) calibers. So they were large volume of fire rifle platforms. Many belt fed to enable sustained suppressive fire. Heavy belts carried by multiple soldiers along with thier own gear. They are large, and heavy to be controllable in full auto. A support weapon. Very different than the legal term "machinegun."
A machinegun in the military sense is generaly a support weapon, and firing full power rifle rounds they chopped through concealment and inadequate cover well.
There is of course light and heavy machineguns to further differentiate.

Light weight battle rifles firing battle rifle calibers were hard to control in full auto, and had limited capacity. They tried the concept with things like the BARs.
Submachineguns generaly are two hand weapon platforms firing weaker pistol calibers. They allow greater precision and volume of fire than a pistol, but give up power for controllability in full auto compared to rifles.

Battle rifles were for aimed use at range, and machineguns to fix enemy positions.
Submachineguns were for use in close range, like during offensives, vehicle operations, house and trench clearing etc. They had the full auto firepower associated with machineguns, but in calibers that enabled them to be lightweight and portable like other small arms. (Soldiers with them could also carry enough of the lightweight pistol ammunition themselves to keep such platforms fed in sustained firefights, unlike most machineguns.) So they are a 'sub' machinegun.


Eventualy the assault rifle would be created to bridge the gap between where a battle rifle excelled and a submachinegun excelled. It gave up much of the power and range of the battle rifle, but gained more controllability in select fire and capacity (not just in the weapon, but how many rounds a soldier could carry.)
A submachinegun is still better for its role (until you bring modern issued military body armor into the equation,) and a battle rifle for its role. The assault rifle is the general purpose weapon that can accomplish both almost as well.
As a result the assault rifle is now the staple of most militaries of the world.
Those issued battle rifles are now 'marksmen'. While submachineguns are limited to only speciality roles.

With advances in body armor around the world the value of the submachinegun is greatly diminished. Large volumes of pistol fire are limited to fewer and fewer roles. Hence the creation of the PDW type weapons in an attempt to fill the small gap where submachineguns were prefered.
They meet with mixed success and round for round are less effective than even a submachinegun on unarmored targets.
As a result submachineguns and thier spawn, the PDW are hardly worth the logistics troubles associated with standard issue. So more compact assault rifles using alreadly fielded ammunition are just used instead. We see that in our military in the form of the M4, in the Russian military in the AK74SU.

Against unarmored civilians the submachinegun is still superior and why it is used in many 'anti-terrorist' operations and 'SWAT' type units. However even many criminals are now using body armor, and thier value in even that role is signifcantly less. So you will see them replaced by compact assault rifles.

One interesting postwar development that our contributors have noticed is the eclipse of the submachine gun in favor of modern assault rifles such as the AKs and M-16s. One reason which has been discussed in numerous prior threads is the range factor. Most battlefield engagements since World War One have not required the great range provided by rifle cartridges such as the old .30-06. Hence, all major military powers in recent decades have opted for intermediate cartridges which some refer to as assault rounds in popular parlance. The main point here is intermediate rounds such as the 5.56mm NATO represent a useful compromise between the older battle rifle calibers and submachine rounds. What the future holds for submachine guns is an interesting topic, and one that may crop up again on THR.


Timthinker

A local ( to me ) shop has an AutoOrdnance Thompson Gun with 20 rnd stick magazine , used - but mint condition - for sale. Almost 900 bucks.

I knew they were heavy , but they are really heavy. And so cool. if they took AMEX I'd have bought it and fought it out with the Mrs afterwards.

Been thinking about it for days now....

Our troops used the Thompson early on but by the end of the war we used the Sten, which was an inferior but much cheaper gun.

Hey, we were skint ...

A bunch of Lend-Lease Tommy guns actually made it back into the country, on one of the gun boards, one of the guys was rebuilding some of them.

Tommy is a term for a common soldier in the British Army...

I wish I still had the picture, my Grandfather was an MP for the British in Africa, they had access to Thompson sub guns...

He described the different sub guns they had when I was a little kid, he had used one on occasion

local ( to me ) shop has an AutoOrdnance Thompson Gun with 20 rnd stick magazine , used - but mint condition - for sale. Almost 900 bucks.

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Not worth fighting with the wife over - AO semi Thompsons are godawful crapshoots and have very little resale.

If you can't shoot it first, don't.

This is all I can offer to the discussion.....wheee!

semi

I have a West Hurley made semi M-1. Fun, zero recoil and pretty quiet.
It does not like hollow points, other than that, zero malfunctions.
IIRC the WWII Thopmson cost around 240 bucks, the M-3 13 bucks. Slight difference.

Sgt. Saunders had a tommygun but a helicopter killed him anyway.

They are called "sub-machine" guns due to the pistol rounds they fired. A full auto machine gun fires a rifle round.

I have a Kahr Thompson (semi) M1 military model with aluminum receiver. It weighs 11 lbs with a full 30 round stick of 45ACP and shoots great. It will not fit a drum. I paid well under 900 but mine is the cheapest model.

streakr

double post

Either Alexfubar is not in the U.S. or the $900 Thompson is a semi-auto, not an SMG. (Or the gun shop owner is nuts, in which case give me the address.)

In WWII, company grade officers (2LT to CPT) carried carbines; higher ranks carried pistols. SMGs were generally issued to tankers (there was no such thing as a "Tanker Garand"), motorcycle messengers, and the like.

Airborne troops had some SMGs but mainly used the M1 rifle and M1 carbine. M1A1 carbines went to airborne officers and MPs, not to the airborne infantry, who jumped or glided in with the standard M1 rifle.

Jim

Thanks, everyone for weighing in. I'd enjoy more discussions of other types of WWII weapons. Does anyone know more about the 'grease gun'?

Geronimo 45: I just ordered a poster with Sir Winston on it from Kahr Arms. And I think they were called SUBmachine guns because they were in a pistol caliber? Not sure.

And so cool. if they took AMEX I'd have bought it and fought it out with the Mrs afterwards.

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This is exactly the reason I will not allow hubby to go to gun shops or sporting goods stores by himself.

Yes JimK , It's a semi auto. Still cool enough for me to want .

I also live in Ma. far as I know they are a No No under our restrictive AG's Approved List , thus making it pre-94 grandfathered , and one of few in this unfriendly to shooters State.

And I think they were called SUBmachine guns because they were in a pistol caliber? Not sure.

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Not just caliber, but weight, too - I'd think. The BAR came out in 1918, and came close to 20lbs. The regular belt-fed MGs were more that... the M1919 apparently weighed in around 30lbs.
A 10-15lb gun firing a pistol cartridge may seem heavy now, but it wasn't all that bad for an automatic weapon of that time.

The M3/M3A1 Grease Gun would appear to be an Americanized STEN. Not so. The wire stock was a tool to help you perform most any task you need done on the gun. Hard to force more rounds into the magazines? Use the stock to hold down the magazine spring. Need to remove the barrel for cleaning or bolt removal? Use the wire stock as a wrench. Need a cleaning rod to clear a tough jam or to attach a wire brush to for cleaning? Wire stock again. The dust cover served as a safety when shut. It had a low rate of fire - 350-450 RPM. Was considered to be pretty reliable. The M3A1 could be converted from .45 to 9mm - the 9mm accepting STEN mags.
It was definitely hit with the ugly stick, but it had a better reputation for reliability than it's similarly ugly cousin, the STEN.
Article on it:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg32-e.htm

Can anyone say why they are called submachine guns?

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Because they were smaller than a squad light machine gun or a BAR and used a pistol caliber.

Chicago typewriter
GAT
Heater

My dad used both a Thompson and an M-1 Garand rifle during WW2. He liked the Thompson the best for close range combat, under 150 yards, and for certain types of combat like urban warfare. He told me that it was also not unusual for a couple of Thompsons to be used to cover the sides and rear of a belt-fed .30 caliber machinegun. So you would have the m.g. in the middle, maybe a rifle on each side of the m.g. and then a Thompson second position out from the m.g. on each side. That was allowing for a full 6 man team too. Dad also said that you would "walk your bullets" into your selected target to make sure that you hit what you wanted to kill.