SAD News-Boy killed with NFA weapon-in Mass.
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Ask her how many times she thinks this has happened in the last half-century. Then compare that to the number of children killed by alcohol, cleaning buckets, vitamins, or any number of other things.
This may even be the ONLY instance of a fatal accident involving a child and a lawfully possessed NFA machinegun in the last 50 years.
highorder
Member
Illegal weapon? few serious questions?
I think you are unfamiliar with the NFA... and a few other things.
A sad situation. Perhaps there was very poor judgement used by some.
Children die using ATVs, snowmobiles, dirtbikes, power tools, etc etc on a regular basis.
The risks with children using powerful machines or tools is there.
Good supervision and good instruction can reduce the danger, but injuries and deaths still happen.
Hopefully people can learn from this and will work harder to prevent injuries or deaths, but people will continue to occasionaly be injured or killed using powerful machines. Especialy those unfamiliar or new to them, like young children.
You know some elementary schools have banned games like tag because children can fall, get hurt, break bones etc
Some have banned pictures of guns, playing games like cops and robbers were people pretend they have a gun etc
Studies found girls often did well with such rules, but boys tended to do more poorly. Boys unable to be boys were developing various psycological issues and other problems.
A generation ago children playing with fireworks was normal. Yes some got seriously injured, some blew some fingers off, or recieved serious burns. Most however were not injured. They learned to be more responsible, and had fun.
Most also had a BB gun at a young age.
A couple generations ago many children had rifles and shotguns. They would go out in the woods or someplace down the street and plink at things. Shoot various things, and few were injured. They had been taught safety, knew serious consequences existed if they shot the wrong thing, and had practice developing into a responsible adult.
Yet occasionaly someone would get seriously injured.
At what point do we stop removing virtualy everything that can pose a danger in the name of safety? Where do we draw the line at when boys can be boys?
As for young children and firearms. Every child is different. Some parents can judge better than others how responsible thier child is. Some know, and others don't see the difference between what thier child is capable of, and what they want them to be capable of.
However I will say that 8-12 is one of the best ages for teaching a child to be responsible. Before hormones cloud thier judgement, and they think they always know what is best after puberty. They are much easier to teach prior to that, and far less likely to be rebellious or do something stupid.
That does mean a good foundation has to have been created in thier younger years though. There is not just some magical age where previous good or bad parenting no longer matters. It all is accumulative.
So the right 10 year old can actualy be more 'responsible' than the same person at 14.
There is various limitations. Including physical limitations. Just like you wouldn't set a child on a dirtbike they cannot touch the ground on, and send them off to have fun even if you had taught them how to ride. You cannot give a child a full auto that continues to recoil with more force than they can manage. That is a completely seperate issue than how responsible they are.
Honestly I don't see this changing anything in the media.
The media already talks about most semi autos as if they are full auto. If you got your firearm knowledge from the media you think "assault weapon" are fully auto. They often show clips of full auto weapons being fired when they mention them, talk about thier use by militaries etc. The gun ignorant public already thinks the ability of anyone to just go down to the store and purchase a full auto AK or AR and walk out with it exists. (I think the NFA is unconstitutional.)
So the distinction that this really was a full auto uzi would just be lost on most viewers. They already are under the impression such things are widespread.
Children die using ATVs, snowmobiles, dirtbikes, power tools, etc etc on a regular basis.
The risks with children using powerful machines or tools is there.
Good supervision and good instruction can reduce the danger, but injuries and deaths still happen.
Hopefully people can learn from this and will work harder to prevent injuries or deaths, but people will continue to occasionaly be injured or killed using powerful machines. Especialy those unfamiliar or new to them, like young children.
You know some elementary schools have banned games like tag because children can fall, get hurt, break bones etc
Some have banned pictures of guns, playing games like cops and robbers were people pretend they have a gun etc
Studies found girls often did well with such rules, but boys tended to do more poorly. Boys unable to be boys were developing various psycological issues and other problems.
A generation ago children playing with fireworks was normal. Yes some got seriously injured, some blew some fingers off, or recieved serious burns. Most however were not injured. They learned to be more responsible, and had fun.
Most also had a BB gun at a young age.
A couple generations ago many children had rifles and shotguns. They would go out in the woods or someplace down the street and plink at things. Shoot various things, and few were injured. They had been taught safety, knew serious consequences existed if they shot the wrong thing, and had practice developing into a responsible adult.
Yet occasionaly someone would get seriously injured.
At what point do we stop removing virtualy everything that can pose a danger in the name of safety? Where do we draw the line at when boys can be boys?
As for young children and firearms. Every child is different. Some parents can judge better than others how responsible thier child is. Some know, and others don't see the difference between what thier child is capable of, and what they want them to be capable of.
However I will say that 8-12 is one of the best ages for teaching a child to be responsible. Before hormones cloud thier judgement, and they think they always know what is best after puberty. They are much easier to teach prior to that, and far less likely to be rebellious or do something stupid.
That does mean a good foundation has to have been created in thier younger years though. There is not just some magical age where previous good or bad parenting no longer matters. It all is accumulative.
So the right 10 year old can actualy be more 'responsible' than the same person at 14.
There is various limitations. Including physical limitations. Just like you wouldn't set a child on a dirtbike they cannot touch the ground on, and send them off to have fun even if you had taught them how to ride. You cannot give a child a full auto that continues to recoil with more force than they can manage. That is a completely seperate issue than how responsible they are.
Honestly I don't see this changing anything in the media.
The media already talks about most semi autos as if they are full auto. If you got your firearm knowledge from the media you think "assault weapon" are fully auto. They often show clips of full auto weapons being fired when they mention them, talk about thier use by militaries etc. The gun ignorant public already thinks the ability of anyone to just go down to the store and purchase a full auto AK or AR and walk out with it exists. (I think the NFA is unconstitutional.)
So the distinction that this really was a full auto uzi would just be lost on most viewers. They already are under the impression such things are widespread.
The child's father that likely made the decision to let the child shoot the gun was most likely not the owner of the NFA firearm. NFA firearms are restricted, and the number artificaly limited by law, making them very expensive. They sell for near 10-20x the value the same weapon would be sold to LEO or military. Meaning a $1,000 weapon can cost close to $10,000-$20,000. Not much less in beat up condition 20 year old weapons. Take an m16 for example, can cost over $15,000 but a brand new m16 sold to the military is under $500, and would retail for about what an AR15 does. A cheap $350-500 sheet metal uzi sells for many thousands of dollars simply because it was registered while still legal in the artifical market.
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Master Blaster
Member
You are wasting your time trying to reason with somone who is a virullent anti, I know I have tried. You would be equally successful arguring with a Catholic Priest that Jesus life was a made up story.
Virullent antis have a religious ferver to their beliefs that defies logic or reasoning.
The only way to convert an anti is to take them to the range and take them shooting, either they will enjoy it and see the light or they will not, and even then they will feel people should not own some firearms because they are too deadly, and people are inherrently irresponsible.
Virullent antis have a religious ferver to their beliefs that defies logic or reasoning.
The only way to convert an anti is to take them to the range and take them shooting, either they will enjoy it and see the light or they will not, and even then they will feel people should not own some firearms because they are too deadly, and people are inherrently irresponsible.
highorder
Member
Sadly, that sums it up.
mljdeckard
Member
I have a ten year old and a seven year old. I'm still teaching them with .22s. I really can't imagine letting someone that small shoot that thing without two-hand assistance.
woodybrighton
member
They are very hard weapons to control fired Mp5k full auto and didn't really consider that terribly controllable as an adult and an alleged trained soldier
something on a tripod fine the weight and recoil is soaked up by the tripod but children smgs no
condolences to the family and anyone there But they made a serious mistake no getting away from it.
something on a tripod fine the weight and recoil is soaked up by the tripod but children smgs no
condolences to the family and anyone there But they made a serious mistake no getting away from it.
ugaarguy
Member
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- 13,828
The weapon was perfectly legal. You are obviously not familiar with NFA paperwork. To buy a fully automatic weapon a BATFE Form 4 must be completed. Completing a Form 4 requires finger prints, a passport photo, and Chief Law Enforcement Official signature (usually your county sheriff) to be submitted to the BATFE, along with a $200 check for the tax stamp. The BATFE then takes anywhere from 60 to 120 days to process the Form 4 and associated back ground check. After that lengthy review if you are approved the BATFE then mails your Form 4 back, with the tax stamp and signed in ink approval. Only after you present your original signed Form 4 with tax stamp to your Class III dealer can he or she transfer to you the gun you paid for 2 to 4 months prior. The original Form 4 with tax stamp, or photo copy thereof, must be with the NFA weapon at all times (most folks who own NFA items keep the original Form 4 in a safe and keep a photo copy with the weapon). Only the person listed on the Form 4 may possess the weapon (i.e. you can let someone else shoot it in your presence, but you can't loan it to a friend).
So, is that "few serious questions asked"?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Don't feed the troll
Hoplophile
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Yeah, ignore Kwahme or whoever. He's a troll.
Seenterman
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Some many things wrong . .
Oh so many thing wrong with what you said, sice noone else wants to correct you I will.
1. The weapon is NOT illegal it is a registered to the National Firearm Registery all fully automatic made before 1974 had to have been registered to this registry which allows them to be possesed legally. No NEW firearms can be added to this registry, only guns made before 1974 have been registered and nothing new can be registered. (I think thats the correct year, if not
someone will correct me)
2. The guy didn't buy the gun to let his kid shoot, He went to a Machine Gun Shoot, sort of a fair for gun owners; where people who own full auto's allow people who dont have full autos shoot their guns for a fee.
3. Fake backround checks? Like the fake NCIC I had to fill out a form for? And the gun dealer called the fake state police? Gun shows HAVE to have a backround check done on anyone buying a gun UNLESS IN CERTAIN STATES (Check your local laws) The gun is being sold by a private citizen to a private citizen of the same state. (AGAIN Check your local laws where you live this might be illegal)
4. People who have been declared mentally ill CANNOT buy a firearm, they will be flagged during the backround check process, and denied the firearm.
Oh so many thing wrong with what you said, sice noone else wants to correct you I will.
1. The weapon is NOT illegal it is a registered to the National Firearm Registery all fully automatic made before 1974 had to have been registered to this registry which allows them to be possesed legally. No NEW firearms can be added to this registry, only guns made before 1974 have been registered and nothing new can be registered. (I think thats the correct year, if not
someone will correct me)
2. The guy didn't buy the gun to let his kid shoot, He went to a Machine Gun Shoot, sort of a fair for gun owners; where people who own full auto's allow people who dont have full autos shoot their guns for a fee.
3. Fake backround checks? Like the fake NCIC I had to fill out a form for? And the gun dealer called the fake state police? Gun shows HAVE to have a backround check done on anyone buying a gun UNLESS IN CERTAIN STATES (Check your local laws) The gun is being sold by a private citizen to a private citizen of the same state. (AGAIN Check your local laws where you live this might be illegal)
4. People who have been declared mentally ill CANNOT buy a firearm, they will be flagged during the backround check process, and denied the firearm.
FourTeeFive
Member
The website of the company sponsoring the event don't help the image and most gun owner's. I like plinking as much as the next guy but check out the web page and videos:
http://www.copfirearms.com/
Yes, everyone is free to do what they want, but most of what I see here is just feeding the anti fires.
http://www.copfirearms.com/
Yes, everyone is free to do what they want, but most of what I see here is just feeding the anti fires.
FourTeeFive
Member
Related to this story, it has always amazed me that MA is such an anti-gun state yet still allows full-auto weapons. There are many states that are much friendlier in general to weapons owners that do not allow full-auto. Strange...
ice monkey
Member
My wife just sent me the story and I came here looking for a good answer …
Truth is, after reading all the posts, nothing said here will appease her completely. All she knows is that a qualified instructor – idiot or not – let a kid shoot himself. Now, though she says she trusts me … in her mind, she has all the more reason to protest me into not taking our kid out shooting … Or even taking her to a gun show for that matter!
I don’t blame her really, just as I don’t blame her for not letting me put our kid (8 or 18) on a three wheal ATV, or letting her use the chainsaw. Nor do I blame her when she gets mad that I go inside to get something when the kids are near the pool … Who could blame her; she’s a mother after all.
Unfortunately, no matter how we, who know better, rationalize it - when it comes to me being able to take my kid out shooting, it’ll be a longer road to hoe with these kinds of story’s out there.
Why would anyone give a full auto to kid?
We'll that's my rant ...
Truth is, after reading all the posts, nothing said here will appease her completely. All she knows is that a qualified instructor – idiot or not – let a kid shoot himself. Now, though she says she trusts me … in her mind, she has all the more reason to protest me into not taking our kid out shooting … Or even taking her to a gun show for that matter!
I don’t blame her really, just as I don’t blame her for not letting me put our kid (8 or 18) on a three wheal ATV, or letting her use the chainsaw. Nor do I blame her when she gets mad that I go inside to get something when the kids are near the pool … Who could blame her; she’s a mother after all.
Unfortunately, no matter how we, who know better, rationalize it - when it comes to me being able to take my kid out shooting, it’ll be a longer road to hoe with these kinds of story’s out there.
Why would anyone give a full auto to kid?
We'll that's my rant ...mgregg85
Member
Wow, my condolences to the family. Terribly irresponsible of anyone to let an 8 year old even try to control a FA weapon, especially one without a stock.
The RSO or anyone else nearby should have done something.
The RSO or anyone else nearby should have done something.
Rusty_Shackleford
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Too much recoil in an uzi to allow most 8 year olds to shoot it. Anyone who saw this happening should have stopped it. Doesn't matter if the kid is strong for an 8 year old, a bullet can't be taken back no matter what.
Gunnerpalace
Member
Don't mean to hijack but wasn't it this one?
I heard it fell on her.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/triplemini2.jpg
Of course it's tragic. And it also shows gun people can be idiots. Kids are not just miniature adults. Kid probably was startled by the recoil and was totally unprepared by the adult "supervision" to deal with the force of the muzzle rise. When I was a kid and went to "shooting galleries at fairs where you could actually shoot a BB gun or even a .22 short squib, the barrels of the guns were chained to the counter to limit the range of muzzle arc. Might have been a good idea here.
Every incident like this is a blow to RKBA. Not because of the anti's, but because it's things like this the non-gun owner who isn't yet anti-gun will remember.
Dumb ass adults. Freaking FA guns aren't toys for kids.
K
Every incident like this is a blow to RKBA. Not because of the anti's, but because it's things like this the non-gun owner who isn't yet anti-gun will remember.
Dumb ass adults. Freaking FA guns aren't toys for kids.
K
Oh, here's one that *could* have turned out just as badly:
http://tapespace.com/view/Girl_Tries_To_Shoot_Ak_47
That AK muzzle comin' atcha kinda makes your nee-noo pucker, don't it?
K
http://tapespace.com/view/Girl_Tries_To_Shoot_Ak_47
That AK muzzle comin' atcha kinda makes your nee-noo pucker, don't it?
K
Hk91-762mm
Member
Yeah, ignore Kwahme or whoever. He's a troll.
Maybe so, but at least we can get the correct info out there for the lurkers and fence sitters who aren't familiar with just how detailed NFA paperwork is.
No you cant get honest info out to this person --THEY are a plant from the Brady bunch or the AHSA!!!
Maybe so, but at least we can get the correct info out there for the lurkers and fence sitters who aren't familiar with just how detailed NFA paperwork is.
No you cant get honest info out to this person --THEY are a plant from the Brady bunch or the AHSA!!!
Thank you all reasonable responders. I now know one can say he's not mentally ill and buy a full auto. BATF does NOT catalog all hospitalizations for mental illness.
I am truly shocked that one may buy a full auto. I held a C&R (some paperwork, perhaps not as much as is needed for other weapons) for 3 years until I decided it was too much bother...just buy the derned things and pay an extra $5 (here in town), and I've owned dozens of firearms through the years. Having never even explored the idea of buying a full auto, I knew nothing the reg. I'm shocked and I'm against it. I am hardly an anti...just partly, the part that allows us to buy fully automatic weapons, made prior to '74 or any other time...oh, and the part that allows some states to sell to felons at gun shows with no backround check.
So ladies, can we buy shoulder-mounted rocket launchers with ammo? How about fully armed F-16s? And if we can't, why not? Derned gun controllers! I know! Let's free up the gun regs a bit and let everybody and anybody buy whatever weapon they like! No age requirement. Or are you ladies for gun control, too?
No, I don't think I should be the one who determines who the idiots are who don't get to buy weapons. Anyone else want to take that responsibility? And if so, why in heck are you even expressing regret that this accident happened?
Yes, children are killed on ATVs and because of refrigerators and electric appliances, just like people die from heart disease, cancer, and infections. So maybe we better not work on curing cancer cuz those other things just keep killing people, too. Let's not work on gun safety cuz, well, derned scissors kill people, too.
I admit to being a lurker as I read this site...if not this particular forum...almost daily. I am not a fence-sitter. And I am not trolling for reaction. I was looking for reasoned dicussion, but having found very little of it, I won't be back. Too bad you people can't see that us non-rabid gun owners (I only have two muzzleloaders, three shotguns and a fine wildcat rifle for which I must reload) are your best chance for expanding your world view. I don't think Hillary would listen to you. But I would have. And someone less sympathetic than me would at least listen to me, and somehow you could have helped get the word eventually to someone like Hillary or Jim Brady...though I think he might carry a bit of a grudge...but I guess we'll just keep fighting with you. That's a losing proposition for you as there aren't near enough of you to counter-balance us more normal people. So here I am, instead of saying "us," I'm saying "you," and thanks for your understanding and willingness to be adult about this. C'est la vie.
Kwahe
I am truly shocked that one may buy a full auto. I held a C&R (some paperwork, perhaps not as much as is needed for other weapons) for 3 years until I decided it was too much bother...just buy the derned things and pay an extra $5 (here in town), and I've owned dozens of firearms through the years. Having never even explored the idea of buying a full auto, I knew nothing the reg. I'm shocked and I'm against it. I am hardly an anti...just partly, the part that allows us to buy fully automatic weapons, made prior to '74 or any other time...oh, and the part that allows some states to sell to felons at gun shows with no backround check.
So ladies, can we buy shoulder-mounted rocket launchers with ammo? How about fully armed F-16s? And if we can't, why not? Derned gun controllers! I know! Let's free up the gun regs a bit and let everybody and anybody buy whatever weapon they like! No age requirement. Or are you ladies for gun control, too?
No, I don't think I should be the one who determines who the idiots are who don't get to buy weapons. Anyone else want to take that responsibility? And if so, why in heck are you even expressing regret that this accident happened?
Yes, children are killed on ATVs and because of refrigerators and electric appliances, just like people die from heart disease, cancer, and infections. So maybe we better not work on curing cancer cuz those other things just keep killing people, too. Let's not work on gun safety cuz, well, derned scissors kill people, too.
I admit to being a lurker as I read this site...if not this particular forum...almost daily. I am not a fence-sitter. And I am not trolling for reaction. I was looking for reasoned dicussion, but having found very little of it, I won't be back. Too bad you people can't see that us non-rabid gun owners (I only have two muzzleloaders, three shotguns and a fine wildcat rifle for which I must reload) are your best chance for expanding your world view. I don't think Hillary would listen to you. But I would have. And someone less sympathetic than me would at least listen to me, and somehow you could have helped get the word eventually to someone like Hillary or Jim Brady...though I think he might carry a bit of a grudge...but I guess we'll just keep fighting with you. That's a losing proposition for you as there aren't near enough of you to counter-balance us more normal people. So here I am, instead of saying "us," I'm saying "you," and thanks for your understanding and willingness to be adult about this. C'est la vie.
Kwahe
atblis
Member
Sorry
Paragraphs, proper punctuation, and well just good writing are your friends. Your post is basically unreadable.
Paragraphs, proper punctuation, and well just good writing are your friends. Your post is basically unreadable.
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