45 acp 230 gr FMJ for defense, why not?

I like that .45 at the bottom (picture) that looks like it "flowered" out. What was that?

Dark AkSarBen said:

I like that .45 at the bottom (picture) that looks like it "flowered" out. What was that?

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An expanded JHP.

FMJ is a Delayed Stopper.

The reason we even have Hollow points is the fact that FMJ will usually have an entrance wound and exit wound. But on its way through the body it usually does not cause enough damage to be a quick enough stopper. A lot of people bleed to death later from FMJ wounds. The Stopping Power is more Delayed.The Newer Bullet Technology such as Winchester Bonded LE Ammo and Federal Tactical-HST and Bonded LE Ammo and Speer Gold-Dot Lawman Ammo. Theses types of Ammo retain 100% of their weight, the Core does not seperate from the Jacket. So you have a bullet that Penetrates Deeply [Will Crush bone, Disrupt tissues, Smash through arteries etc] And Normally not exit the Body. These bullets really expand well in all conditions. All this combined, is a much quicker Stopper. We all should take advantage of the Newer technology. After it is Our lives and Our Families and Even Innocent Strangers We are Protecting. Whether We are LE or Civilians. We Have A Responsiblity when We choose to Possess and Carry a Firearm. I use all LE Ammo for My Defensive Ammo. Hell it is very economical to purchase online. My favorite place to purchase from is Ammunition to go. [Link provided below]

http://ammunitiontogo.com/

Hope Everyone Has a Good Day-Stay Safe!

Frank

I know that Johnson N, but what kind of JHP? Was that the Winchester SXT load? Kind of reminds me of those earlier Black Talon by Winchester rounds, but without the black luballoy coating.

I hate to bring up dead threads, but I'd like to share a rather embarrassing piece of experience that I think could prove useful. I'm a recent owner to the 1911. I've been used to double action triggers on handguns all my life. Shortly after acquiring my cherished new weapon, I was practicing reloading magazines, only for some reason, I was stupid enough to not unload the mags.

Well, the one thing I thought I would be careful enough to prevent happening happened. I had an accidental discharge. I had released the slide catch and I guess my finger accidentally bumped the trigger (I am a firm believer in trigger discipline and I know my fingers was parallel to the slide, so I'm still not quite sure how that happened. Thankfully, no one was hurt. Now we get to the interesting part of the argument. What the bullet itself went through.

This wasn't anything fancy. Just a typical round of 230gr WWB FMJ. The bullet went though the following.

Two couch pillows that are nice and fluffy (not too firm as they're only a couple years old) and about 6" thick each and a piece of wood that was part of the frame of the couch. Couldn't be more than 1.25" thick. Anyway, that's all the bullet went through. It never left the couch (and we've never actually been able to find it)

Based on this, I am confident that worries of over penetration from .45 ACP are moot. Keep in mind, it's a large diameter, flat nosed bullet traveling at subsonic speed, not a zipper like 9mm.

Round-nose bullets seem to work well for the military.

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1. They don't get to use anything else for the most part, so it doesn't matter.
2. Define "work". I don't get to call for an airstrike if ball doesn't work for me.
3. They rarely give a crap about through and throughs. If you shoot a jihadi and the bullet penetrates completely and hits another jihadi, the second jihadi doesn't get to sue you... yet.

Just remember that those gelatin penetration results do not factor in skin elasticity and bone - just a somewhat simulated "tissue" and there again, everyone's muscle tissue is different...yep, I'm saying a standard velocity 230 FMJ is not over penetrative with a solid torso hit...and remember any bullet can over penetrate with peripheral hits. I've noticed that most of the 230 JHP ammo has a higher velocity compared to the FMJ versions...I'm sure that is to help whatever expansion it might get but for that fact and also since it isn't a completely round nosed bullet if it doesn't expand, it may just be to help it penetrate enough....hmmm, something to think about.

Don't get me wrong, if your pistol will function with a JHP and you have some by all means use them, but as has been said, a 230 FMJ will do it's part if you do yours. A possible benefit of a hollowpoint in a .45 is the edge that the hollowpoint has whether it expands or not, it may just cause a cut in some vessel or it to catch the edge of a bone that it would have gotten by as a FMJ...now, would that have been enough to make a difference overall...there are just too many variables to ever know...but then again, a wadcutter profile does have an advantage over a round nose profile.

I believe that the shorter the barrel, the more the 230 FMJ is beneficial...such as in a 3 or 3.5 inch short stroker so that it will have adequate penetration and be more feed friendly too....seems to me putting a lighter weight, high velocity +P hollowpoint round in a short barrel .45 is just asking for a lack of adequate penetration, not to mention being harder to control....now a standard pressure 185 grain should be easier to control, but then again, will it penetrate enough....and not knowing exactly what will be needed of your bullet as far as adequate penetration goes, in this case, you have to remember that just like money, ammo, friends, and fun; there ain't no such a thing as too much and it's way better than not enough...so it may just be best to stick with a good 'ol FMJ in those little rascals

Here's what I'm thinkin': For a 5 inch barrel, use a 185, 200, or 230 grain standard (or +P HP if it makes you feel better) pressure hollowpoint or FMJ load that your pistol likes and be confident......For a 4 or 4.5 inch barrel, use a 200 grain HP or a 200 or 230 FMJ and be confident....for a 3 or 3.5 inch barrel, use a 230 FMJ and be confident...the longer barrels give the lighter bullets their speed and the shorter the barrel, the more the heavier bullets momentum helps the needed penetration....as a parting note; I reload a lot of my .45s with lead bullets and if I was to ever have to use one of my loads in self defense, I think that some of my 200 grain SWCs or 230 Lead Round Noses out of one of my 5 inch guns or even the 230 LRN out of my short stroker would get the job done as well as anything as long as I do my part...

As usual, YMMV

How are hollow points more effective if you have to shoot someone wearing clothing wouldnt that foul up the cavity of the bullet and essentially make the bullet the same as a full metal jacket?

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They're more effective because they at least have the possibility to expand. In the worst case scenario, your JHP will become clogged, not expand, and be just as effective as an FMJ.

A 9mm jhp is HOPING to be a .45 fmj when it grows up. I carry 230 gr HSTs, but I would rather carry .45 hardball than 9mm jhp.

i dont care much for hallow point. my .40 SW FMJ will stop intruders quick enough.. think about it. 2 rounds of FMJ into someone's chest will do damages especially in the heart..

When it comes to bullet expansion from a handgun round, remember that...like functional reliability...it's not about guarantees. It's about incrreasing the odds that it will perform as advertised.

We work to insure that the gun will function every time, and go forth with the fervent hope that it will...even though in the back of our minds...we know that there's at least a chance that it won't.

Like the salty old Master Gunny said:

"EXPECT your weapon to malfunction."

And so, we stoke up with the latest/greatest killer-diller hollowpoint...and hope that it will expand on impact, even though we know that it might not.

Marksmanship and bullet placement is what we should trust, rather than the hoped-for expanded diameter of the bullet, because no two will perform exactly the same in any two human assailants. The only way to insure that the bullet will provide the best chance of doing the same thing in any two given targets is for it to do nothing at all except penetrate.

For my money, I'd rather have a heavy, flat-nosed solid bullet at moderate velocity. Expansion depends on too many "ifs"...most notably velocity and energy. Both those are ever-changing variables, while mass is constant. Personally, I'd like to see a factory .45 ACP round that utilizes a 250-grain SWC at around 800 fps.

and the debate goes.......

I just hope that those they say their JHP's are 100% reliable are not referring to topping off their mags occasionally like many do because of expense.
Other than that, it's a matter of choice. I really believe every time I CC with my .45's that there are my crucial concerns when "all Hell breaks loose".

i dont care much for hallow point. my .40 SW FMJ will stop intruders quick enough.. think about it. 2 rounds of FMJ into someone's chest will do damages especially in the heart..

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That is, of course, assuming that you don't miss, which is perfectly possible in a (probably) low light, high stress situation.

Seriously, you save a few dollars using FMJ, but it could cost you your life in the long run. As long as hollowpoints are available that properly function in weapons and expand as designed, *cough*HST*cough* you should pick the one that gives you that advantage. .2 inches of expansion can be the difference between a quick stop and a BG firing in return.


.45 HST expands well (better than just about anything else, actually) even with low velocity.

1911Tuner, why go for a bullet that is guaranteed to not expand instead of one that might, perhaps even probably so? How is "decent" better than "less than perfect"?

Bottom Line: FMJ will work, but there are better options.

No fmj for self-defense for two reasons. One is overpenetration. On a battlefield it might not mean much. But in the crowded cities that most of us live in it is a huge liability. FMJ of the .45 caliber does can in fact overpenetrate and kill bystanders. Imagine trying to not only defend yourself in court for killing the perp but also the the poor sob that happended to be standing behind him.

Second fmj has significantly less stopping power than jhps. Pistol rounds are weak as it is, why wouldn't you want every advantage you can get?

Save your fmj for practice and maybe last ditch end of the world sd ammo.

1911Tuner, why go for a bullet that is guaranteed to not expand instead of one that might, perhaps even probably so?

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Consistency.

Ben86...just a couple of things to remember; 1.) You should ALWAYS be aware of what's behind your target....You are right - overpenetration is a liability, not quite the same but dang near as bad as MISSING your target. As far as shooting in crowded cities, as in on the street or in an apartment and if absolutely necessary (meaning NO other option) you should take a knee and fire with an upward trajectory toward chest/head area, in an apartment with side, below, and/or overhead neighbors, you should really only use a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun with birdshot. Overpenetration of a standard .45 FMJ with a solid torso hit is not likely.

2.) As far as the mythical stopping power goes, consider the difference in the outcome of a perp hit in the cranial cavity or spine or pelvic bone or heart or major blood vessel with a FMJ compared to a hollowpoint - there is none. Autopsy has shown time and again that the type of bullet used cannot be determined until it is found. Use hollowpoint .45 ammo (actually all hollowpoint handgun ammo) with the same confidence you would a FMJ... Remember expansion should only be considered a bonus, not an expectation. Like 'Tuner said, give me a wadcutter profile - and on a side rant, why can't the ammo manufacturers make a .45 jacketed SWC or at least a flat nose (like the S&W .40) and sell it for the same price as a round nose; answer, they can...

As always, YMMV

On a side note...

Ken Rainey is a full-time LEO.

I shot him in the head with a .45 in June of ought-three...and he not only survived...he didn't go to the hospital for a week afterward.

They grow'em tough down in Ole Miss.

When I have the opportunity to carry I use a Springfield Champion 4". I use metalform magazines and JHP and FMJ's feed perfectly through the weapon however using +P in that platform becomes a handful so I do not use +P rounds.

Use whatever you feel most comfortable with like 1911tuner pointed out expansion does not make up for shot placement along with knowing what is or is not behind your target.

And I'm s-s-s-still d-d-d-doin' j-j-j-just f-f-fine c-c-cousin' J-Johnny...

Gotta get back out that way to see ya again one of these days...reckon anybody would give me a raised eyebrow if I was to keep my motorsicle helmet on at the range this time

I dunno, I've read enough Medal of Honor citations to conclude that 230gr. hardball is effective at least some of the time.

Ken, of course the reciever of a clean COM or CNS shot cannot tell the difference between fmj or jhp. However those perfect shots are so difficult to get while someone is trying to kill you. JHPs stop better with less than perfectly placed shots than do fmj. I have never had to shoot a person. But I have used both fmj and jhp on wild animals while hunting and have seen a significant difference. And then there are statistics, which I never trust completely but they do give you a good idea of the truth.

And I thought it was the caliber that sometimes couldn't be determined until it was found, aside from the exact bullet type. Wound channels from fmj are so neat and clean, jhps are wider and more messy.

And did the .45 bounce off your head?