Remember PEARL

Speaking of old Brownie pictures...

I remember back when I was in high school. I had a buddy who lived with his mother who was divorced from his dad who had served in WWII. One day I was nosing around, flipping through some old b&w photos in a shoe box when I came across a picture taken on the deck of a US battleship. There were a lot of men on deck, surrounding a group of Japanese men, several of whom were wearing top hats. Now, I wasn't a great student of history, but even I knew what I was looking at-- the surrender of the Japanese on the Missouri. There were at least a dozen different images, taken from different positions, of the ceremony. It was pretty cool and I always wondered why they never did anything with those pictures other than leave them to rest in that box. I guess the good news was, thanks to being neglected or forgotten, they were in as good a condition as the day they came back from the lab.

I frequently wonder whatever happened to those pictures and the thousands of photos of war like them?

Remembering Pearl Harbor

My father-in-law (last remaining parent of either my wife or myself now) wasn't old enough to be serving on 7 Dec, 1941 but was a gunner on B-24s flying out of Italy. He got shot down and spent several wonderful months as a guest of the 3rd Reich in one of their "resort communities" in Poland. He also got to participate in the German Death March. Here is a link: http://www.thecombatreport.com/index.php?Itemid=91&id=193&option=com_content&task=view

I don't think most Americans under 30 have a clue about what happened at Pearl Harbor in Dec of 1941. Not sure most of 'em would give a rat's a** if they did know. I know the people in Europe think we think too much about that day. 'Course they also tend to get pretty snotty when you remind them that the only reason they aren't speaking German is because of the tens of thousands of G.I.s who died for their freedom.

While I was stationed in Japan in 79-82 I know a Missionary who did his work in the northern part of Honshu (the main Japanese island). He saw "Tora, Tora, Tora" in a Japanese movie theater and was the only round eye in the place. He said most of 'em positively stood up and cheered during the scenes of the attack. He also said he felt VERY exposed. BTW, they don't teach much about WWII in Japanese schools. Reckon it's because they lost?

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Cyborg
Burying your head in the sand only makes you a** a better target.

My stepfather, who I got that book from, and a wonderful Smith Model m10-8, passed away very recently. He was a radio operator on a C-47 during the Normandy invasion. We have lost a great generation of men and women.

I was just at Pearl Harbor a month ago during a vacation to Hawaii.

Place worth visiting.

My dad (he passed away a few yrs ago) was a Marine, stationed at PH on that day. Just as I could not not join the armed forces, I could never forget Pearl Harbor.

Come to think of it, I didn't see any mention of it today on TV. Usually, the History Channel has something on about PH this time of year. I could have missed it but I doubt it.

We recently had a gentleman who was a survivor of the Bataan Death March come speak at our Community College. He was also one of the survivors of the Palawan Massacre. When he got back, he joined the Iowa State Patrol and served in that capacity until retirement. He wrote a book about his WWII experiences called Last Man Out. If you can find it on Amazon, it is worth the read.

Our freedom has been Very expensive.....

How lucky we are that we have had men and women in this country that were willing to fight and die for the rest of us. Just think of all the lives our freedom has cost, all the way back to the 1700s. And they are still out there around the world fighting and dying for us.

God Bless each and every one of them.

If you only knew how close this actually came to coming true, m'friend, you would just about soil yourself. Most people do not know it, but the Empire of Japan almost did not surrender - even after both Hiroshima and Nagasaki! In point of fact Tojo and the junta DIDN'T surrender. It was the Emperor, flying in the face of thousands of years of tradition, who recorded the message of surrender. Even at that the message almost did not get broadcast. Though several copies of the recording (on vinyl in those days) were made and sent out of the imperial compound, only a SINGLE COPY of the recording made it to a radio station to be broadcast. Had that copy not made it through the Junta's cordon, there would have been no surrender and Operation Downfall would have had to be implimented. The Japanese would have fought to virtually the last man, woman and child and the hatred engendered in the U.S. at the staggering casualties it would have taken would have made experience of the post-civil war south look like a picnic.

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Tojo was out of the government by the time of the atomic bombings.

It was a small clique of fanatics who launched an actual military coup the night before the surrender recordings were to be played. The combination of a B-29 induced power blackout, the bravery of members of Hirohito's staff and NHK broadcasters, and the violent irrationality of the mutineers themselves caused the coup to fail. Had the mutineers not rashly murdered a senior army officer, the Chief of Staff of the army might well have gone along with them.

We recently had a gentleman who was a survivor of the Bataan Death March come speak at our Community College.

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The last person I met on active duty in the Army in '84 was a survivor of the Death March. He was a National Guard tanker. I was leaving the Engineer Board for the last time, on my way to the Officer's Club for a drink, when an older guy and his wife stopped us and wanted us to take a picture of him in front of a tank monument. We ended up going to the O' Club with him and talking for a long time. He said that as long as their ammunition held up, they went through the Japanese tankers like crap through a goose. Based on my subsequent study of Japanese armor at the Battle of Nomonhan, I believe it even more than I did then.

Double Naught Spy said "Why we need to make up a reason to bring up the topic is beyond me,"
Its beyond me why anyone would want to forget, and not tell our Young. Without History we would not Learn. Thoughts like yours will be the Death of Many.

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Who said anything about forgetting. Besides, creating fictitious stories isn't about remembering, it is about creating new memories that didn't exist. Funny how we like to harp on the opposition for misrepresenting facts, but when we do it ourselves for our own self serving purposes, we think it is okay.

Yes, the pictures are real, quite moving, etc. That hasn't been in question. The significance of Pearl Harbor should be shared the real stories, not some made up internet folklore.

sturmgewehr667 - your inputs and attack on DNS are not insightful, are not accurate, and dang sure ain't particularly High Road. If you don't have anything constructive to add - don't let your fingers tickle the keyboard.

I cannot abide falsehoods being promulgated, even in a good cause. There were good and honest and brave photographers, some pro, some amateur, some military taking those pictures, and to attribute them to a false source is a lie and the originator of the story is a liar.

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Absolutely. Our goal should be to ALWAYS speak and write the truth as best we can glean it. Even with the best of intentions, fostering a lie diminishes us all.

How lucky we are that we have had men and women in this country that were willing to fight and die for the rest of us. Just think of all the lives our freedom has cost, all the way back to the 1700s. And they are still out there around the world fighting and dying for us.

God Bless each and every one of them.

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Roger that.

A woman I'm aquainted with spoke at church on Sunday. She was at a party on that day, which was attended by several naval officers. Their was an announcement and all the men were immediately recalled to the base.

She never saw them again and has no idea how many lived through the war, but she was greatly moved, and still is today, to see them stand up and go, when duty called.

I was 7-1/2 at the time. No TV then; just radio plus imagination. Newspaper photos; then the newsreels from Fox and Movietone. Grownups looking worried, speaking in hushed tones.

So, my memories are of the civilian front. Rationing comes to mind: Shoes, gasoline, meat, tires, butter, sugar. No more toys of metal, generally; mostly cardboard. No more caps for the cap pistol; no more copper-clad BBs. And no new cars were sold after January 1, 1942. Victory Bonds, and Victory Gardens in back yards.

"Use it up, wear it out. Make it do or do without."

Picture books of airplanes. I was soon able to identify by silhouette every plane of every country.

Part of "Social Studies" class in school included world maps and examination of progress. Campaigns and battles.

Gracie Fields, live on radio from London during the Blitz, with the sound of bombs exploding. "Hawaii Calls" live from Honolulu...

My stepfather flew B-24s out of Henderson Field on Guadalcanal. My father went ashore on D-Day.

The A-bombs meant to me that my stepfather didn't have to go back to the war, and my father could come home. I saw Hiroshima in 1950, and I guess about all I felt was satisfaction. I had already seen the remains of Manila.

And remembered Pearl Harbor...

Art

The A-bombs meant to me that my stepfather didn't have to go back to the war, and my father could come home. I saw Hiroshima in 1950, and I guess about all I felt was satisfaction. I had already seen the remains of Manila.

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Well that's the difference, isn't it?

We destroyed the cities of Japan to end the war.

The Japanese destroyed Nanking and Manila for FUN...

A lot of people grouse about the atomic bombs, but far more people were killed on Okinawa then in both of the bombed cities combined.
And the bombs enabled us to avoid attacking their homeland where the civilians would have killed themselve by the millions, just like they did on Okinawa. It is a terrible way to save lives, but it is certainly better then not saving them at all.

The most impressive Marine I ever met was Master Gunnery Sergeant Luis Guzman. He reputedly swam the Rio Grand and walked thirty miles barefoot to enlist, served in China with 7th Marines and was captured on Corregidor, survived the death march and 4 years as a POW, re-enlisted and served in Korea and Vietnam. Here's to you Gunny, wherever you may be today! Semper Fi!

He said that as long as their ammunition held up, they went through the Japanese tankers like crap through a goose. Based on my subsequent study of Japanese armor at the Battle of Nomonhan, I believe it even more than I did then.

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I saw a video earlier today of some of our GI's testing a captured Japanese tank. Oh good grief was it bad. It was hilarious, and pathetic. Massive overtravel in the suspension, hardly any horsepower or traction, they actually got it completely stuck at one point. It went into a fairly minor depression, couldn't climb the other side, and couldn't get back out. Then they had it race a Stuart tank. The Stuart was about 50% bigger and outran it easily.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLKwq8JKIaw&feature=related

My grandfather served in World War II, in the Corps of Engineers. He was attached to the Air Force. He was stationed on Okinawa working at the airfield, and was there when Typhoon Louise hit. I've seen pictures. What a mess. He once saw some Japanese standing outside their cave. He could have shot them with his M1 Carbine, but he decided not to. As he said, "It's just as well, because it didn't end well." Some of the soldiers went up there and poured a fuel drum down the cave and lit it.

I've also been lucky to know Garth Brown, a Pearl Harbor USS Oklahoma survivor, USS Helena survivor, plus one other ship (also sunk).

I saw a video earlier today of some of our GI's testing a captured Japanese tank. Oh good grief was it bad. It was hilarious, and pathetic. Massive overtravel in the suspension, hardly any horsepower or traction, they actually got it completely stuck at one point. It went into a fairly minor depression, couldn't climb the other side, and couldn't get back out. Then they had it race a Stuart tank. The Stuart was about 50% bigger and outran it easily.

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Even worse than their hardware was their idiotic doctrine.

In EVERY other armored force in the world at the time, doctrine for handling a disabled tank in combat was to remove what vital equipment that you could and recover the vehicle afterward. Doctrine in the Japanese army was to DIE WITH THE VEHICLE. You can turn out a tank in a most a couple of days. It takes MONTHS to turn out a tank CREW. Coox talks about Japanese doctrine in his book "Nomonhan".

You can look at what the Japanese did at the Battle of Nomonhan and count off the things which beat them after December 7th, 1941.

Japan still had the feudal view of warfare rather than the humanitarian or logistical view, which dictates that you should preserve lives and trained personnel if at all possible.

But truth be told, it wouldn't have mattered much with their tanks. Their armor was so thin that rifle rounds sometimes penetrated, and Sherman crews used high explosive rounds on them because standard anti-tank rounds blew clean through.

But truth be told, it wouldn't have mattered much with their tanks. Their armor was so thin that rifle rounds sometimes penetrated, and Sherman crews used high explosive rounds on them because standard anti-tank rounds blew clean through.

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By the end of the war, the Japanese had at least mediocre tanks (Chi-Ha, I think)and had stockpiled lots of them in anticipation of the invasion. Unfortunatley for them, since they'd based their armored doctrine on fighting Chinese with broadswords (and the VERY occasional Pzkpfw I), they'd have been slaughtered even if they'd been driving T-34s.

I've seen Soviet newsreel footage of the Red Army's Iraq style "thunder run" through Manchuria in '45. It was like a herd of cape buffalo turned loose on a kindergarten playground. I remember a T-34 or KV pivot steering on top of a Japanese bunker until it was perfectly flat.

My father served on the USS Torsk during WW II. His sub sank the last Japanese ship before the war ended. The USS Torsk is the sub with the sharks teeth painted on it. Unfortunately my father died when I was 6 weeks old so I never got to hear his war stories. God Bless all the men and women who served!!!