Real Deal on Cheaper 2-bbl shotguns - particularly the CZ/Huglu

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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

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OK, it is nearly universally accepted that the "cheaper" SxSs and O/Us (mostly Turkish made) just will not cut the mustard in the long run - "you get what you pay for - they're not really a bargain - they'll invariably break under hard use / thousands of rounds (skeet, trap, clays) - they can't possibly balance/shoot/pattern/"ergo" as well as "good" ones (all over $1,500)" - yada, yada. While I cannot refute this, I'm wondering WHY this is, since I am looking at my CZ/Huglu gun and it's quite smooth and balances well for me (it seems), and it's extremely aesthetic as well: that that leaves breakage - what specifically is likely gonna break and why? Is it because the parts aren't forged/milled/heat-treated, or what? These CZs are not in the $400-$700 range, like the lowest end guns (Stoeger, Yildiz, Baikal/Spartan, etc.) - rather, they typically retail in the $700-$1,100 range, depending on model, so that makes me think that it's possible or conceivable they could be *as good as* a higher priced Beretta, Browning, Winchester, Benelli, Franchi, S&W, Ruger, SKB, Ithaca, etc., made in Japan, USA, or elsewhere.

So my question becomes, How much of this idea, really, (with respect to the CZ/Huglu guns only), that you've gotta pay $1,500-$2,000 for a double to get a good one - no question, end of story - is attributable to tradition/inertia/ and yes, snobbery, and how much is true 'get what you pay for'? My understanding is that the Turkish firms (Huglu specifically) uses the most modern CAD/CAM systems available, on the finest manufacturing machinery. Why is it that they can't simply use their lower labor costs to put out an equal product, at lower price? What's stopping them, and why haven't they done it? Obviously, if you read between the lines, I'm highly skeptical about the *conventional wisdom* here. Or is the jury just still out? Is it simply the case that we don't really yet know how the CZs will hold up to thousands upon thousands of rounds, because nobody has yet done it and documented in a way that can be believed when reported?

So, your answer comes down to four choices. Please specifically pick one of these four as your answer, before explaining your answer:

1. It's tradition/inertia/snobbery. The CZ is every bit as good as a Japanese or American-made gun. Don't believe the hype.
2. No, it's not hype. The CZ cannot compare in longevity/overall quality to the Japanese/American guns. You definitely get a lot more for your extra $1,000.
3. The jury is still out - we just don't know yet.
4. I personally have no clue.

Please start your answer with "1" through "4" - thanks!

Recent/concurrent thread as background/supporting material:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=411066
 
1. I think the CZ is a fine gun. I would rank it on a playing field with a Browning Citori or Beretta 686. I am not going to rank it with the likes of a Browning BSS or a Ruger.
 
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4. If you like your shotgun, don't pay too much attention to what people say on the internet. I have never shou a Huglu, but I have a CD Miroku that I think is the best shotgun I have ever owned. A lot of people think the Miroku/Citori is too heavy, swings like a shovel ect. Who cares? I like it and thats that.

If your Huglu suits you and you kill birds and break targets with it then enjoy. Don't worry about something breaking until it breaks, then get it fixed and go on. There are some o/u guns out there that I would stay away from,
But don't let the opinions of other shooters diminish the enjoyment you get from your shotgun.
 
Good point. But I will never personally shoot it often enough to find out for sure about longevity under hard use, since I have several shotguns for hunting and don't shoot competitively. It's mostly a general curiosity kind of thing. Either way, I'm satisfied with my CZ.
 
You could become the next Huglu expert. All it would take is 30K shells and some range time.:D
 
Turkish

Take this with a grain of salt as it's from my feeble memory. I believe that the Huglu (which seems to market by several names ie CZ, DeHaan, etc). Holds the world record for skeet over a weekend. I remember seeing the pictures some time ago. A several person team took stock Turkish guns and shooting them around the clock over a weekend, broke tens of thousands (perhaps 100,00 plus) clay targets. The pictures showed the team standing in front of empty hulls and boxes about as tall as they were. They had no malfunctions or breakages in the guns. I have owned a couple each of DeHaans, Huglus, Armscors, CZ's. All were very good guns, but heavy. Do be aware that if you break/crack a stock there are absolutely none available. The gun has to be returned to Turkey for re-stocking. At least this was the situation with the last DeHaan I owned, which cracked the stock in a fall. Instantly the gun was worthless, even to DeHaan. Searched every avenue, but not one was available in the USA as each one is hand fitted in Turkey. They are not just a bolt on. Long story short a stock problem is high dollar/long wait ie months.
 
I have had a Huglu and it was the worst shotgun I have ever owned. It was a 28ga. Ringneck Gr. II w/GR.III wood bought in person from the Armsport (importer) showroom out side of Chicago. Single trigger would give light hits on the primer. After 3 trips to their repair facility in Bull Shoals, Al. It went to Cabela's in a trade. I was tickled pink I got my money out of it.

I should have learned my lesson about Turkish guns, but a year later I bought a Kimber Valier Gr. II. IMO this gun is about 3K over priced. No wonder Kimber doesn't sell them anymore.

Beretta and Browning are head and shoulders above these two guns.
 
if the gun has two triggers then it already has a step up on the inferior in every way SST. The SST is complicated, expensive, and hard to choose barrels with depending on design, it is very user friendly though. if a cheap gun has the more inexpensive double triggers then at least you know you have cheap double triggers which are cheap to begin with anyway instead of a cheap SST which will really suck wonders
 
246 views and only 4 opinions on this? C'mon, share your opinion, unfounded or not. :)

I have had a Huglu and it was the worst shotgun I have ever owned. It was a 28ga. Ringneck Gr. II w/GR.III wood bought in person from the Armsport (importer) showroom out side of Chicago. Single trigger would give light hits on the primer. After 3 trips to their repair facility in Bull Shoals, Al. It went to Cabela's in a trade. I was tickled pink I got my money out of it.
Click to expand...

See, this is what I need - pros & cons; thanks!
 
i pick number 2.

BUT there is a hitch. I have only only owned or know people that have these alleged "inferior quality" service member imports. I cannot comment on the "gun dealer" imports. The huglu that i brought back in 2003 from turkey was bought for under 200, semi auto but a beautiful gun. less than 100 rounds in i could not get ignition because the firing pin would not fully hit, only leave light nicks on the primers. The spring was very shoddy and compressed enough to not get the full travel. I also saw that the hammer was deforming from hitting the pin! another friend of mine had a firing pin break in less than 100 rounds..
there was a fella that told me when i got home that these are known for having sub-par internals, and boy he's right.

hopefully the gun dealer imports are better than what i have.. a beautiful turd!
 
#1. No way, no how.

#2. Absolutely true.

#3. The verdict has been in for years. Some people just don't want to hear it. Huglus have been problematic for a long time, and CZ has never said how, or even claimed that, they solved these problems. Short of that, it's hard to see why we should assume they're solved. Not with my money, thanks.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

#4. I've seen enough, and I have discussed this with trustworthy people who know guns from experience and have seen more than I.

I think the CZ is a fine gun. I would rank it on a playing field with a Browning Citori or Beretta 686. I am not going to rank it with the likes of a Browning BSS or a Ruger.
Click to expand...

LOL

I sure wouldn't rank the CZ with the proven B-guns. I don't think you'll find many people who would rank the Ruger with them, either.

Never shot a BSS, myself, so I won't comment on it.

Bottom line? I know few if any people who have bought a cheap O/U, who didn't get a Citori or 686 rather soon afterward.

Want a real value? Get an SKB. I wouldn't trust anything for less money NIB, and there are good reasons for that.

If you want a good gun that will point well and last forever, for cheap, just get an 870. Damn good gun, even the cheapest version you can buy.

Buy whatever the hell you want, but despite the eternal American fantasy of something-for-nothing, you do get what you pay for. :)
 
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BS

The differences between the lower grades of Browning Citoris and Beretta 680 series guns and the higher grades are cosmetic. Figured walnut and game scenes may look nice, but they don't shoot any different or last any longer. Obviously, some different lines have different features ("Sporting", "Field", etc. -- some of which is also BS).

And double triggers are hardly "superior in every way". That's plain silly. I have both, and yes, a double trigger extractor gun is simpler and therefore is less likely to have a malfunction. But a baseball bat is even simpler and less prone to malfunction -- which proves what? Sometimes, barrel selection is easier with two triggers. Sometimes, you just get a glove hung up on the other trigger.

I'll believe the CZ is worth buying when I've seen one with 50,000 rounds, a smooth, tight lockup, and the original firing pins. In the meantime, I'd rather spend a few hundred more bucks for a known quantity, than take a chance on a Turkish gun. Never knew anyone who won that bet.
 
#2

As has already been mentioned, stocks can be a problem, triggers are generally inferior to higher quality guns...They are not in the same ballpark, reliably, as a Browning or Beretta, (neither is Ruger).....and they are surely not close to AyA, Arrietta, or Grulla from Spain, let alone the Italian or British guns

Browning's SxS are rather heavy, which is fine for waterfowl or sporting clays. I prefer lightness and litheness for an upland gun, coupled with superb balance.

If your Huglu fits you and you like it, by all means enjoy it.

Is there a difference between a Chevy Tahoe and a Caddy Escalade??? Essentially the exact same product, but one costs a lot more. This discussion sounds like this.
 
Is... er was there a difference between a Chevy Blazer and a Yugo?
I will have to split my vote between #1 and #4. I have no experience with them, but I am offended my beloved BSS got mentioned in the same thread.:)
 
#3

Too soon to tell-BUT!Many new to our shooting sports don't have that extra grand and to keep our sport going we need these folks.My 1st shotgun was a 311.I've got a HUglu and like it.I've got 2 Spartans-good field guns.I've also got an old Belgian made 12ga double.Fit+finish far superior to most I've seen lately.You do get what you pay for.But if you can't pay much,get the best you can afford.Forums like this are wonderful.They can inform newbies of the best for their $!
 
earl, you haven't offended me. I can't remember the last time anyone did, and it sure wasn't about consumer product quality if they did.

I just don't want to see new shotgunners waste their money. I've seen it enough.

That's what forums like this are for, right? I think it's worthwhile to pass around information so that others can learn from the collective experience of many fellow shooters, rather than blowing their savings accounts on their own tuition at the school of hard knocks.
 
"share your opinion, unfounded or not."

Okay, you might get a gun that's reliable out of the box and runs for a long time. Or you might not.

The odds are much, much better with a Browning or Beretta.

You know, I saw a Ford Maverick on the road yesterday, but that doesn't mean they were good reliable cars, just that one survived.

The above opinion was reached after wasting thousands of hours reading internet posts - I say wasted because I'm not buying a CZ shotgun, I already have a 28 ga. Guerini. I don't have much personal experience with Turkish shotguns, but there are too many reported problems. I do own a CZ-75B and a 452 American so it's not like I dislike CZ.

Here's something to get started on, 7 pages, and there are other threads too.

www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=75342

"I have a CZ Ringneck in 20 gauge. It's a great gun with properly regulated barrels. The critics are right in that quality control suffers with all Huglu shotguns. Even so if you know what to look for at the gun store you can find a good one. In other words do a little quality control inspection at the store and you'll be OK. Take some snap caps and checked the trigger pulls; sometimes they can be really heavy but seldom have much creep. Also check and see if the firing pins are hitting at the center of the primer or almost so. Sometimes on Huglu's the hole is not drilled perfectly centered. While you are at it, move the barrel selector back and forth checked the safety and fire the barrels (with snap caps of course) several times to make sure there is no doubling or other malfunction. Also check forend to make sure there is no slopp. Then checked for barrel regulation. The only way to do that is to use muzzle, not bore, laser inserts."
 
I would suggest that someone who knows enough about shotguns to evaluate one per John's quote above isn't generally buying a Turkish shotgun...

With that level of knowledge and experience, it seems most guys are looking for a good used gun, or a classic project gun, or just a new top-quality gun.

It's not true for 100% of buyers, obviously, for the bottom line is, if you're asking the question in the first place, you're probably not an experienced gunsmith (amateur or pro). If it's your first higher-end break-action, there's a high probability you won't be qualified to do the checking that the above guy was able to do. You won't have the point of reference that you need.

I've been there -- with a used Browning. Believe me, a used B-gun can be a POS if abused enough, and the signs of abuse aren't obvious to someone who hasn't gone through a few himself.

Bottom line? It's probably not worth the money that you're "saving", if you aren't already an expert in break-action shotguns. And if you are an expert, you're probably already into other guns anyway.

Now there's that 1% of potential buyers who have the above knowledge and skills, and are looking at a new Huglu at the gun shop instead of a bargain in a used Krieghoff he heard that a friend of a friend wanted to sell. I was assuming that the OP isn't part of that 1%.

If you are qualified to do your own QC, and have the equipment, and are still looking at Turkish guns, hell, knock yourself out.

For the rest of us, I have seen too many problems to think that a low price necessarily means a good value.
 
Unfortunately with guns, there really is no right or wrong way to treat them. Sure you can baby them day in and day out and it might last a lifetime but maybe not. Just the same you can treat it like crap shoot only heavy loads from it and it could last a lifetime or maybe not.

When it comes down to it Ive had about as many problems with the pricier ones as with the cheaper ones. That is on a one for one basis. Given the choice Id choose a Browning or Beretta because they just plain shoot better and feel better. But as far as pure function is concerned I havent noticed much difference.
 
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