LEO's BUG

From what I have heard, several of the local PDs in my area issue/authorize S&W x42 J Frames as a BUG. Kinda sucks, because good 38 hollowpoint ammo in my area is always getting bought up by the cops, DOH!

When carrying my 1911, I always try to carry my 642 as well. I figure if I am badly injured, and down on the ground, it'd be nice to have a gun at my disposal that isn't sensitive to limp wristing or being fired from odd angles.

That's just me though, YMMV.

For me, my concern isn't so much that I need a backup in case my Sig "fails" per-se (we train extensively for failure drills), but that I need access to my backup if I'm on the ground struggling with a perp. and he is

1. actively trying to get my sidearm away from me (many officers are shot this way)or

2. has done just that and I'm left only with my backup within reach or

3. somehow "lost" my weapon in the struggle (big no-no of course). There is also the possibility that I may expend all my avail. rounds in the weapon AND my extra mags, in which case I would transition to my backup. Of course if that were the case, I would be ashamed of myself for being such a bad shot in the first place......

I'm actually suprised by the number of Chiefs/Administrators that won't even allow backup weapons.

When I was a rookie I thought I needed a backup. Learned real quick if you can't get it done with what you have as a duty weapon you probably are not going to get it done. Administrators and chiefs are fools if they allow backups without some sort of policy regarding how, when, etc in addition to documented qualification fire.

AKCOP reply

All those stipulations are indeed in place that you mentioned. I have to qualify with it, and there are standing SOP's about what caliber (has to be .380 or better), style, etc. I had to submit a "letter of intent" with my Chief, even though I had already qualified on it, and essentially ask permission to carry it. It had to be inspected, and the ammo also had to be approved.

I agree with you about the "need" of it....but I cover 100 sq./mi. by myself, and I certainly like the extra security of knowing it's there "just in case" when my backup can literally be 45min. or more away depending on where I am.

Thoughts???.......

I know of at least one incident in which an Alachua County (Florida) deputy was able to disable a suspect by shooting him with a backup weapon. The suspect and the deputy had become involved in a scuffle, during which the offender gained partial control of the deputy's primary sidearm.
AKCOP, it would be nice if you were right. In fact, the vast majority of LEOs get through their careers without ever having to fire their primary sidearms, yet they still carry them.
As to the OPs point, the failure of an autoloader is rarely due to an issue with it that is inherent to all similar pistols. If you doubt your safety carrying one, perhaps your primary weapon should be a revolver (assuming you are not a LEO, dictated by policy what you can carry.)
Another issue to consider is ammunition compatibility. Some will carry two guns that will accept the same ammo (and, in some cases, the same magazines.) This way, a reload for one can be used for the other.

I used to carry a .380 auto as a BUG but recently switched to a customized scandium 9mm jframe with CT laser grips. Like franconialocal, I'm not so worried about my duty weapon failing (a Beretta), but all of the other variables. The switch was as much about caliber (I consolidated all of "work" my guns to 9mm this year - duty, off duty, BUG, carbine), as it was about action. A revolver is simply has less chance of failure under bad circumstances than an auto. No magazine to fail or drop, can't go out of battery, no stove pipes, ftf's or fte's, can't limp wrist it, etc. Plus, the laser grips allow me to put rounds on target with either hand, even if I cannot raise the gun or see the sights.

You never know what might happen so remember - two is one, one is none.

Oops, double tap.

I work for the Department of Interior and we are only allowed to carry the Sig P232 as a BUG. I normally don't carry a BUG on duty though. I consider my BUG to be my service pistol, and my rifle or shotgun my primary. My duty pistol is secured with a triple retention holster and it would take a heck of a lot for a BG to get it out of there. I keep all of my weapons in superior condition and have yet to have any of them fail on me. If I need more than what I usually take out on patrol, I should probably be getting backup in route or escaping the situation. More weapons in the scenario means more weapons to protect too.

Backup? Sometimes if we got backup within a week we were blessed.
We learned to do on our own, we learned to avoid mistakes and still get the job done or die doing it. I know I know crazy talk but that is just the way it was in the great north. I know it sure kept me on my toes knowing backup was just something someone else had. Hey if having a BUG is for you then do it.

Carrying a second gun is not a bad idea. I did it when I was a cop and recommended others do it also.

We carried revolvers so it was not as a back up to a failed gun but as a second gun. It was concealed and not available to the public. I had occassion to use it several times.

Once when a fellow was trying to relieve me of my duty revolver.

Other times it was nice to have were when we were serving a warrant and the detective with me had "forgotten" his duty piece.

There are a lot of times a second gun is nice to have, not always as a back up gun.

The days of the "throw away gun" are long over.

Not sure if the chiefs and administrators are fools for allowing it or just like there Officers to come back at the end of the shift.

I carry a J-frame .38 as a BUG, as I have for most of my career (after a brief period with a SIG 230 and a Kahr K40).

My agency's policy on BUGS specifies they may ba carried for use in an emergency where the primary sidearm becomes lost or disabled.

My personal feelings when I carried one was that the BUG and primary should be similar in operation. EG: my Colt Defender backed up my Kimber 1911.

I no longer carry a bug. Maybe the wife will let be buy a Sub-Compact XD45 when they start making them...

I carried a BUG tucked into the straps of my vest under my left arm. It rode snug, was out of the view under my uniform shirt, and easy to get to since our uniform shirts have hidden zippers under the false buttons. Just unzip with off hand and withdraw the BUG. If one hand is disabled you can still tear away the zipper with ease and draw.

Our issued duty sidearm then, was the S&W 4586 DAO .45. By department policy, the bug had to be a department issued S&W 4556 DAO .45 Tactical compact. This smaller auto loader was identical to the larger gun and was issued to all officers as as a BUG and off-duty. Magazines for the full size gun worked in the smaller framed pistol if necessary. Alas, this is not the case with the two Springfields (Full size TRP and 3 inch micro compact) I carry now. The short grip frame 3 inch will not function reliably with my main gun's eight rounders.

Commonality of training between the two guns was the reason we issued the BUG/Off Duty. Qualification and training on the backup to the same standard as the full size duty gun was required.

After a few years of complaining by some of the officers, the rule was relaxed and other BUGs and off dutys were permitted as long as the officer paid the cost of training ammunition (if other than .45 ACP).

I continued to carry the little .45. as BUG/Off Duty.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

Leo's are also cliquish so some might carry revolvers or some auto's as a bug. No need to figure reason into it they carry what makes them feel safe or a part of the group.

Leo's are also cliquish so some might carry revolvers or some auto's as a bug. No need to figure reason into it they carry what makes them feel safe or a part of the group.

Click to expand...

What?

Interesting thread. I found myself nodding my head in agreement with some of the comments.

When I carried a secondary weapon it was a J-frame. I started my career carrying a revolver as an issued weapon. Even though I was later given a semiauto pistol as an issued weapon I still trusted the reliability of a proven short-barreled, 5-shot revolver when I felt I needed a secondary weapon with me. Handy size, too.

I haven't carried a secondary weapon for quite a while, but my reasoning is my own and it shouldn't be taken as anything other than my own preference.

I did find it interesting that once a policy was finally created authorizing and regulating the use of a personally-owned handgun as a secondary weapon, which involved having to qualify to the same standard as the issued service weapon with the actual carry method selected, that not a lot of folks seemed all that anxious to carry one. I'm not really sure why this would bother anyone, because personally-owned off-duty weapons fall under the same policy, unless the size of the off-duty weapons most folks choose don't appeal to them as far as being small enough to carry in a way other than on their belt.

If I were to carry a secondary weapon again, it would again be a S&W J-frame.

Not everyone can easily shoot them, though.

WC145,

Thanks. You beat me to it.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

I did find it interesting that once a policy was finally created authorizing and regulating the use of a personally-owned handgun as a secondary weapon, which involved having to qualify to the same standard as the issued service weapon with the actual carry method selected, that not a lot of folks seemed all that anxious to carry one.

Click to expand...

I've found that, in spite of the powers that be encouraging off-duty carry and BUGs, very few in my area carry off-duty and even fewer carry BUGs, or, if they are, they're not telling and not qualifying with them. I don't know if it is because we have to qualify on the same course of fire as our duty weapons or they simply choose not to, but I've only seen one guy other than me ever qualify with anything other than their duty gun.

I always qualify with at least 3 different guns - duty, BUG, and off-duty. I figure that if I ever need to use one I'll be better off having proven competent with the gun I'm carrying and having that gun on record with the state as one that I am qualified and authorized to carry.

Yeah, while Secondary Weapons may not have been on the increase among folks I know, I am pleased to observe that there's been an increase in the number of folks qualifying with off-duty weapons.

Now if only these folks would start giving some additional consideration to whether their carry methods offer them the most benefit for their needs, and that carrying extra ammunition is a good idea.

Another thing I've been pleased to see is more of our retired people coming through the range to qualify and maintain their authorization to CCW.

There is a video that has been on "wildest police videos" and on youtube, of a K9 officer fighting with a BG and the BG gets his gun, but it jams. Before the BG can clear the jam, the K9 unit pulls out his BUG and kills said BG.

The statement about "getting done with what you have and not having anything else" is not real world. I've known officers that have had to fight for their life with with their car keys, flashlights (me), walkie-talkies against skulls, whatever keeps one alive.

As a retired chief, I not only allowed back-ups if they qualified with them, but some carried 3 guns Main weapon, Backup, and then maybe a NAA .22 or little 25 in a hip pocket instead of a wallet.

There is a video that has been on "wildest police videos" and on youtube, of a K9 officer fighting with a BG and the BG gets his gun, but it jams. Before the BG can clear the jam, the K9 unit pulls out his BUG and kills said BG.

Click to expand...

That is one well trained and well equipped dog! Mine don't even like to go to the range let alone shoot.

I carry a Kahr mk9 or k9 in my reaction side hip pocket to back my duty sidearm, a CZ P-01. I am hopeful that the expanding 9mm bonded HPs I feed them will reduce a deadly threat against me. I know I wouldn't want to get shot with one myself... I am considering replacing my micro Khars with a J-frame, for the simple fact that a revolver has its own attributes which offer advantages a semi-auto can't. A revolving cylinder will chamber a new round, if one fails, simply press the trigger, the gun does all the work, no need to tap, rack before reassessing the threat. A draw back is that in extremely close quarter combat, it may be possible for an attacker to physically restrict the movement of the cylinder and render the weapon incapable of firing, with his hand. There are so many what ifs. Surely it is a great idea to carry a BUG, consider what you are most comfortable with and what will work best for you under stress. Be safe.