Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Funny how that keeps getting avoided. The pistol keeps getting named by Scratchy, but not the ammo.
Buckmark blew up
- Thread starter Scratchy
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BullitHolz
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- Apr 30, 2008
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If he was shooting reloads I know this would have been on the top of the list, but this is a .22 so....
I'm thinking squib load, bullet lodged in the barrel and then another fired in behind it. The pressure has no where to go so the slide takes ALL of the force and gets rammed to the rear, bending the gun in the process.
We need to know the ammo used and if the bore is clear of obstructions. If it was a squib load that cause this I would definately be on the phone demanding a new gun from someone.
Word to the wise, don't send anything to anyone without taking a lot of pics first and writing everything down that you can think of. More than one gun has been made to dissapear to keep the courts out of the picture.
I'm thinking squib load, bullet lodged in the barrel and then another fired in behind it. The pressure has no where to go so the slide takes ALL of the force and gets rammed to the rear, bending the gun in the process.
We need to know the ammo used and if the bore is clear of obstructions. If it was a squib load that cause this I would definately be on the phone demanding a new gun from someone.
Word to the wise, don't send anything to anyone without taking a lot of pics first and writing everything down that you can think of. More than one gun has been made to dissapear to keep the courts out of the picture.
presspuller
Member
I don't think anything really would have happened if it did, the bullet being smaller than the bore it would not have built up pressure.
But my thinking is not always right.
I ruled that out because I assumed we would have been told if there was a bullet lodged in the bore. But yes, I believe a bullet lodged just in front of the chamber could cause the damage shown if a second round were fired.
I suppose that the second round could clear the bore of the obstruction but it would surprise me if it did.
I'm gonna go +1 on a squib on the previous round. I don't think a .22 will generate that much power, even with a double charge, unless the bore is plugged. Possibly successive manufactured rounds where one case got the charge for both rounds? One case is primer only, one is double charged, primer only round happened to be loaded first?
John
John
TEDDY
Member
burst
things puzzle me???? the top looks like it seperated clean.in or out the 22 would not do that damage.had a 8 mm lebel hangfire out of a hockiss fire in air just went pop.I have had 22 rims burst and nothing happened. I have a H & R revolver that was in a fire.it was fully loaded and they went off,no real damage the fire was hot enuf to burn the wood off a rem870.some thing is wrong.
things puzzle me???? the top looks like it seperated clean.in or out the 22 would not do that damage.had a 8 mm lebel hangfire out of a hockiss fire in air just went pop.I have had 22 rims burst and nothing happened. I have a H & R revolver that was in a fire.it was fully loaded and they went off,no real damage the fire was hot enuf to burn the wood off a rem870.some thing is wrong.
308sc
Member
I do remember some Winchester Super X .22lr round nose ammunition being recalled because of a double charge last year......I thought I had some but it turns out I had the Hollow points (i had lead HP) and the recall was only for the Round Nose and a certain kind of hollow points
http://www.winchester.com/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=210
http://www.winchester.com/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=210
shooter429
Member
What was the ammo? was there a bullet in the bore?
Why not tell the whole story? I am amazed that happened. The BMs are my No.1 plinker and very good guns. Very strange. Have you talked to Browning? I have found them very helpful (not that any of my Brownings ever had a problem that I did not cause, but they have done things Gratis, even though they had every right to charge me. If there was a defect in the gun, they will make it right. But they are of such a high quality that I find it hard to imagine it was a manufacturing defect. But I gotsta know. That leads us to the big question of what ammo was being used. IF it was factory standard ammo, others could be affected, so please share.
Thanks
Shooter429
Why not tell the whole story? I am amazed that happened. The BMs are my No.1 plinker and very good guns. Very strange. Have you talked to Browning? I have found them very helpful (not that any of my Brownings ever had a problem that I did not cause, but they have done things Gratis, even though they had every right to charge me. If there was a defect in the gun, they will make it right. But they are of such a high quality that I find it hard to imagine it was a manufacturing defect. But I gotsta know. That leads us to the big question of what ammo was being used. IF it was factory standard ammo, others could be affected, so please share.
Thanks
Shooter429
A "squib" load will send the bullet down the barrel a ways. In a pistol, it will usually get all the way out of the barrel(for 22 rimfire). These rounds are designed for rifles, REMEMBER?
Even in a rifle, where the bullet becomes lodged in the barrel a foot down from the breech, you are not going to develop pressure to cause a failure of the slide. You are going to develop pressure between the two slugs that will bulge the barrel between the two slugs.
THat's it.
THe squib load explanation is no good.
Even in a rifle, where the bullet becomes lodged in the barrel a foot down from the breech, you are not going to develop pressure to cause a failure of the slide. You are going to develop pressure between the two slugs that will bulge the barrel between the two slugs.
THat's it.
THe squib load explanation is no good.
I agree that it's improbable, at best. The only way it could work is for the bullet to lodge just forward of the chamber (unlikely as you point out) such that it built up a lot of pressure before the second bullet could start moving. I think that could generate enough pressure to cause the damage shown. THEN, the second round would have to clear the barrel which I think is also very improbable.
jonnyc
Member
Too much wild speculation here, and not enough info from the original poster. Many of us with Buckmarks really want some solid info here.
Scratchy, please fill us in and answer whatever you can.
Scratchy, please fill us in and answer whatever you can.
Hey, guys,
Do NOT underestimate the chamber pressure of the .22 LR. Both it and the tiny .25 ACP run around 25,000 psi, higher than the standard .38 Special or .45 ACP. But of course there are fewer square inches in the .22 and .25 than in the .38 or .45 case.
What may have happened is that the round misfed and the bullet rammed into the breech face; the sllide struck the rim of the case hard enough to set off sensitive priming. That would be an out-of-battery firing and could easily have caused the pictured damage.
Jim
Do NOT underestimate the chamber pressure of the .22 LR. Both it and the tiny .25 ACP run around 25,000 psi, higher than the standard .38 Special or .45 ACP. But of course there are fewer square inches in the .22 and .25 than in the .38 or .45 case.
What may have happened is that the round misfed and the bullet rammed into the breech face; the sllide struck the rim of the case hard enough to set off sensitive priming. That would be an out-of-battery firing and could easily have caused the pictured damage.
Jim
Was this perhaps caused by a loose topstrap??? If the two screws holding down the topstrap wiggled loose, then perhaps the motion of the slide going back and forwards could have distorted the strap.
I agree that the depression in the breech face is most likely from the guide-rod and not a bullet. It's still a possibility that a round went off outside the chamber. The slide, returning into battery at an off-axis angle could have hit the rear of the cartridge, jamming it into the breech-face, and could have hit the rim hard enough to make it go off.
I agree that the depression in the breech face is most likely from the guide-rod and not a bullet. It's still a possibility that a round went off outside the chamber. The slide, returning into battery at an off-axis angle could have hit the rear of the cartridge, jamming it into the breech-face, and could have hit the rim hard enough to make it go off.
Jaybird78
Member
Winchester Wildcats +1
That bad lot of Wildcats destroyed my brother-in-laws Ruger 10/22 about a year or so ago. RUGER AS ALWAYS MADE GOOD IN A NEW RIFLE. Only cost was the shipping to the factory. I believe he also sent in the rest of the ammo that had not been fired.
Good luck, I don't own a buckmark but they are great pistols. IMHO
Ok, I got about halfway through making another post arguing that a rimfire case fired out of the chamber could NOT cause that kind of damage and my irritation got the better of me and spurred me to action. I went out to the garage and rigged a setup to fire a .22LR cartridge unsupported.
The picture shows a .22LR bullet & case that were fired unsupported. Both the bullet nose & the breech end of the cartridge case were supported to simulate the possibility of the nose being jammed against the breech of the barrel and the case head being jammed against the bolt. You can see that the nose of the bullet has flattened. Some of that happened during setup since I was trying to make sure there was pressure on both the bullet nose & case head of the cartridge, some of the flattening happened when the round fired. You can also see how the rear of the bullet was flared by the escaping gases after the bullet moved forward (movement was allowed by the deformation of the nose) enough to allow the pressure to vent completely.
The (rusty) steel ruler was supporting the nose of the bullet, the red box shows where the bullet nose was against the ruler when the case was set off. The ruler was unsupported behind the bullet nose to see if the force of the firing would deform or dent the steel. (There was a safe backstop beyond the ruler but nothing right up against it that might reinforce or support it.)
The cardboard was about 1" from the side of the case when it was fired.
1. It was loud enough that I wish I had worn hearing protection.
2. Note that the case did not rupture. The pressure was vented around the bullet. You can see that it bulged a bit before the pressure vented.
3. Note that nothing pierced or damaged the piece of cardboard even though it was only an inch from the case when it went off.
4. There is absolutely NO deformation visible to the ruler although it is only 0.075" thick.
NOW can we dispense with the silliness that a rimfire case being fired while not chambered can tear up a gun in the manner Scratchy's pictures show?
Unless it was loaded with some sort of explosive, it HAD to have been chambered in order to build up enough pressure to cause that kind of damage.
The picture shows a .22LR bullet & case that were fired unsupported. Both the bullet nose & the breech end of the cartridge case were supported to simulate the possibility of the nose being jammed against the breech of the barrel and the case head being jammed against the bolt. You can see that the nose of the bullet has flattened. Some of that happened during setup since I was trying to make sure there was pressure on both the bullet nose & case head of the cartridge, some of the flattening happened when the round fired. You can also see how the rear of the bullet was flared by the escaping gases after the bullet moved forward (movement was allowed by the deformation of the nose) enough to allow the pressure to vent completely.
The (rusty) steel ruler was supporting the nose of the bullet, the red box shows where the bullet nose was against the ruler when the case was set off. The ruler was unsupported behind the bullet nose to see if the force of the firing would deform or dent the steel. (There was a safe backstop beyond the ruler but nothing right up against it that might reinforce or support it.)
The cardboard was about 1" from the side of the case when it was fired.
1. It was loud enough that I wish I had worn hearing protection.
2. Note that the case did not rupture. The pressure was vented around the bullet. You can see that it bulged a bit before the pressure vented.
3. Note that nothing pierced or damaged the piece of cardboard even though it was only an inch from the case when it went off.
4. There is absolutely NO deformation visible to the ruler although it is only 0.075" thick.
NOW can we dispense with the silliness that a rimfire case being fired while not chambered can tear up a gun in the manner Scratchy's pictures show?
Unless it was loaded with some sort of explosive, it HAD to have been chambered in order to build up enough pressure to cause that kind of damage.
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As far as I'm concerned, your test was a total waste of time. I already knew what your test proved.
I went through this years ago when I argued to a group of buddies that is was pefectly safe to shoot at ammo. I do not mean that I shot ammo. I mean that we were shooting AT ammo. We set live ammo out and shot at the primers. Someone in the group complained that we were endangering houses and propane tanks in a one mile radius since that is the range of a 22 rimfire cartridge.
I had to prove otherwise.
But thanks for posting.
I went through this years ago when I argued to a group of buddies that is was pefectly safe to shoot at ammo. I do not mean that I shot ammo. I mean that we were shooting AT ammo. We set live ammo out and shot at the primers. Someone in the group complained that we were endangering houses and propane tanks in a one mile radius since that is the range of a 22 rimfire cartridge.
I had to prove otherwise.
But thanks for posting.
TimboKhan
Member
I don't think it would, for the simple reason that MkII or III doesn't have a topstrap. Frankly, it makes me curious as to what would happen in a similar situation.
I knew that, but I still like the fact that you tested it. I think it is a very, very common belief that an unsupported bullet will "shoot", for lack of a better term
I agree. An overpressure round would drive the bolt back at higher than normal velocity, but because the bolt is enclosed inside the one piece steel receiver, it's not likely to torque and bend the receiver. It might elongate the holes in the receiver where the large pin goes through the receiver, or it might break/bend the pin. My guess is that none of that would happen, the design is pretty robust and I think it would soak up the extra energy without incident.
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