What knife (metal ) that holds it sharpness
- Thread starter nathan
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THe Gerber Gator i have has the 420 HC stainless stee. Link
http://www.onlygerberknives.com/Gerber-Knives-05.html
http://www.onlygerberknives.com/Gerber-Knives-05.html
We've had extensive discussions on steel for blades over in NonFirearmsWeapons and there are a couple of points to add to "what steel"?
Heat treat was mentioned already. A good heat treat of a mediocre steel is much better than a bad heat treat of some expensive "super steel". Too hard, the edge chips and the tip breaks. Too soft, the edge won't hold.
The third leg of the triangle is edge geometry. Without the right edge geometry the edge just won't cut well. Think of a wedge. The edge is just too broad to sharpen into a cutting edge. Make the angle of the edge so narrow that it's like a razor it won't hold up to hard use.
The steel, the heat treat and the edge geometry all go into making a good knife blade.
One steel I didn't see on that impressive list was CPM D2. A recent addition to knifemakers, CMP D2 may be the best of all worlds for the user. The only problem is that it's a monster to grind and eats belts like they were candy.
A new relatively exotic process for forming D2 blades is supposed to produce an edge that cuts and cuts and cuts and ... The technique takes expensive computer controlled equipment, but I saw an example of such a knife at the Blade Show at the Diamond Blade / Knives of Alaska booth. The knife was set up in a mechanical jig and it was cutting 1/2 inch manila rope an inch at a time. Manila rope is pretty tough stuff to cut for very long. I watched it cut 10 feet of rope. That's 120 cuts through 1/2 inch manila rope. I was amazed watching it and wandered off shaking my head while it was still slicing away.
BTW, ceramic knives are great for holding and edge, but they are brittle and prone to chipping.
Heat treat was mentioned already. A good heat treat of a mediocre steel is much better than a bad heat treat of some expensive "super steel". Too hard, the edge chips and the tip breaks. Too soft, the edge won't hold.
The third leg of the triangle is edge geometry. Without the right edge geometry the edge just won't cut well. Think of a wedge. The edge is just too broad to sharpen into a cutting edge. Make the angle of the edge so narrow that it's like a razor it won't hold up to hard use.
The steel, the heat treat and the edge geometry all go into making a good knife blade.
One steel I didn't see on that impressive list was CPM D2. A recent addition to knifemakers, CMP D2 may be the best of all worlds for the user. The only problem is that it's a monster to grind and eats belts like they were candy.
A new relatively exotic process for forming D2 blades is supposed to produce an edge that cuts and cuts and cuts and ... The technique takes expensive computer controlled equipment, but I saw an example of such a knife at the Blade Show at the Diamond Blade / Knives of Alaska booth. The knife was set up in a mechanical jig and it was cutting 1/2 inch manila rope an inch at a time. Manila rope is pretty tough stuff to cut for very long. I watched it cut 10 feet of rope. That's 120 cuts through 1/2 inch manila rope. I was amazed watching it and wandered off shaking my head while it was still slicing away.
BTW, ceramic knives are great for holding and edge, but they are brittle and prone to chipping.
Big bill, no prob. My pleasure.
I work in the boiler industry(small to medium scale industrial) and rust is something I deal with constantly. Before that I was in the pre-stressed concrete industry and rust was a primary threat there too. If anyone wants to do some research on rust, the US navy is the place to find the most info. NOBODY IN THE WORLD knows more about rust than the US navy. It turns out that rust really is contagious. There are micro-organisms that live on metalic surfaces and within oxides of metals that secrete enzymes that promote rust. These micro-organisms can be a serious problem inside boiler systems...and also on the exterior of the navy's iron based hulled ships.
I'm not completely sold on the use of stainless in knives and guns.
Carbon steel is superior in every way except oxidation and some very specific high temp characteristics. Stainless doesn't "flow" at high temp. This makes it impossible to flame cut stainless steel with an acetylene torch...and is probably related to why stainless barrels on rifles are resistant to throat erosion. But in exchange for that erosion/flow resistance, you get a material that is more prone to cracking and crumbling when subjected to long term rapid temp fluctuations. Also, stainless sometimes seems to be more suscepable to damage from prolonged exposure to caustics than is carbon steel, imo. Also, stainless ususally feels soft when you smack it with a ball peen hammer or gouge it with a hammer and chisel. Stainless guns seem to scratch easier and lose their sharp edges faster from holster wear than a blued steel gun or a nickel plated gun does. But paradoxically, stainless is harder to cut with a saw, or to drill, or to mill. And in my opinion, it is also harder to sharpen.
I don't know for sure, but my own personal experience with knives over the years tells me that carbon steel will produce a superior cutting edge over stainless when sharpened with ordinary primitive tools...ie a grinding stone or a very fine file. I used to experiment with sharpening techniques when I was younger.
My conclusion was that the most efficient way to get a razor like edge was to start with a german made carbon steel blade(that rusts vigorously and look for a "solingen" mark) and sharpen it the best you can with a very fine file. Then switch to wet/dry sandpaper(a new sheet) of medium-fine coarseness and without any lubricant that is mounted to a piece of window pane. Then switch to a worn piece of well oiled wet/dry very fine sandpaper that is mounted to a small piece of board with a thin piece of felt between the sandpaper and the board. Then finally switch to a well used oily piece of leather that is covered with fine metalic dust infused greasy crud. Use one side of the leather first, then the other side last. I don't remember which now. But I think it was the suede side first, then the hard smooth side last.
One other thing that is quite odd about knife edges...a freshly sharpened edge is not as sharp as one that was sharpened a week ago and set aside and not used at all. I think it has something to do with the "patina" that develops on the edge over time.
And finally...the sharpest edge known to man? You know what that is? It is a freshly made flint edge. THat's right! Thousands of years of evolution and the stone age man still has us beat! BTW, a freshly chipped or broken piece of ordinary glass is equal to flint in sharpness. So if you want a superior weapon when someone confronts you with a switchblade knife...just empty your beer bottle, flip it upside down, and smash the bottom off of it.
But of course, when you do so, you are sacrificing toughness(the technical term used to describe blade characteristics, not your own personal combat characteristics) for sharpness.
I work in the boiler industry(small to medium scale industrial) and rust is something I deal with constantly. Before that I was in the pre-stressed concrete industry and rust was a primary threat there too. If anyone wants to do some research on rust, the US navy is the place to find the most info. NOBODY IN THE WORLD knows more about rust than the US navy. It turns out that rust really is contagious. There are micro-organisms that live on metalic surfaces and within oxides of metals that secrete enzymes that promote rust. These micro-organisms can be a serious problem inside boiler systems...and also on the exterior of the navy's iron based hulled ships.
I'm not completely sold on the use of stainless in knives and guns.
Carbon steel is superior in every way except oxidation and some very specific high temp characteristics. Stainless doesn't "flow" at high temp. This makes it impossible to flame cut stainless steel with an acetylene torch...and is probably related to why stainless barrels on rifles are resistant to throat erosion. But in exchange for that erosion/flow resistance, you get a material that is more prone to cracking and crumbling when subjected to long term rapid temp fluctuations. Also, stainless sometimes seems to be more suscepable to damage from prolonged exposure to caustics than is carbon steel, imo. Also, stainless ususally feels soft when you smack it with a ball peen hammer or gouge it with a hammer and chisel. Stainless guns seem to scratch easier and lose their sharp edges faster from holster wear than a blued steel gun or a nickel plated gun does. But paradoxically, stainless is harder to cut with a saw, or to drill, or to mill. And in my opinion, it is also harder to sharpen.
I don't know for sure, but my own personal experience with knives over the years tells me that carbon steel will produce a superior cutting edge over stainless when sharpened with ordinary primitive tools...ie a grinding stone or a very fine file. I used to experiment with sharpening techniques when I was younger.
My conclusion was that the most efficient way to get a razor like edge was to start with a german made carbon steel blade(that rusts vigorously and look for a "solingen" mark) and sharpen it the best you can with a very fine file. Then switch to wet/dry sandpaper(a new sheet) of medium-fine coarseness and without any lubricant that is mounted to a piece of window pane. Then switch to a worn piece of well oiled wet/dry very fine sandpaper that is mounted to a small piece of board with a thin piece of felt between the sandpaper and the board. Then finally switch to a well used oily piece of leather that is covered with fine metalic dust infused greasy crud. Use one side of the leather first, then the other side last. I don't remember which now. But I think it was the suede side first, then the hard smooth side last.
One other thing that is quite odd about knife edges...a freshly sharpened edge is not as sharp as one that was sharpened a week ago and set aside and not used at all. I think it has something to do with the "patina" that develops on the edge over time.
And finally...the sharpest edge known to man? You know what that is? It is a freshly made flint edge. THat's right! Thousands of years of evolution and the stone age man still has us beat! BTW, a freshly chipped or broken piece of ordinary glass is equal to flint in sharpness. So if you want a superior weapon when someone confronts you with a switchblade knife...just empty your beer bottle, flip it upside down, and smash the bottom off of it.
But of course, when you do so, you are sacrificing toughness(the technical term used to describe blade characteristics, not your own personal combat characteristics) for sharpness.
I have just joined THR a few days ago and have been reading as many of the threads as I can to sort of "catch up" on whats going on here. So far I have found some great discussions regarding some of my favorite topics and knife technology is at the top of my list.
I will start out by saying I am NOT a "professional" blade smith but I have had the great fortune to have studied under some of, in my opinion, best around these parts. IMHO, heat treating is the single most important factor that determines a blades usefulness. A forged steel blade heat treated properly will out cut, out last, and and generally out perform all others. This is not to say that there aren't other "specialized" blades that will say hold an edge longer but they are usually to brittle to stand up to the rigors a hunter will put a blade through. There are also prettier blades. They may be made from powdered metal, mosaic "Damascus", or any number of fancy processes. The problem with these is that there are way to many weld joints and the cutting edges are rarely forged...remember I said a forged properly heat treated blade.
I see this post is getting long winded so I'll just state my favorite...I like/carry a random patterned, forged blade made from 250 layers of L6 and 1095 heat treated to 60rc. Handle material is oosic and furnishings are mokeme (sp). This blade gets a lot of complements and it is very functional.
Sorry for the long first post here but when I get started talking about blades I tend to get carried away.
tlw
I will start out by saying I am NOT a "professional" blade smith but I have had the great fortune to have studied under some of, in my opinion, best around these parts. IMHO, heat treating is the single most important factor that determines a blades usefulness. A forged steel blade heat treated properly will out cut, out last, and and generally out perform all others. This is not to say that there aren't other "specialized" blades that will say hold an edge longer but they are usually to brittle to stand up to the rigors a hunter will put a blade through. There are also prettier blades. They may be made from powdered metal, mosaic "Damascus", or any number of fancy processes. The problem with these is that there are way to many weld joints and the cutting edges are rarely forged...remember I said a forged properly heat treated blade.
I see this post is getting long winded so I'll just state my favorite...I like/carry a random patterned, forged blade made from 250 layers of L6 and 1095 heat treated to 60rc. Handle material is oosic and furnishings are mokeme (sp). This blade gets a lot of complements and it is very functional.
Sorry for the long first post here but when I get started talking about blades I tend to get carried away.
tlw
Sagetown
Member
QUOTE=Loomis; So if you want a superior weapon when someone confronts you with a switchblade knife...just empty your beer bottle, flip it upside down, and smash the bottom off of it.
As a young adolecent, I had seen that done on TV, so I tried it with an old discarded bottle I found on the roadside. Smashed the the bottom off and the entire bottle shattered slicing my hand up real good. :banghead:
As a young adolecent, I had seen that done on TV, so I tried it with an old discarded bottle I found on the roadside. Smashed the the bottom off and the entire bottle shattered slicing my hand up real good. :banghead:Okey, since we are about knives, do they issue those Kabars to regular US Marine recruits today ? The guys in WW 2 always have them.
Looking on SOG made combat knives, I really like to have one of their SEAL Pup version. Its about $100 new.
Looking on SOG made combat knives, I really like to have one of their SEAL Pup version. Its about $100 new.
Militaries have gone more towards daggers and stilettos, imo.
There's no more call for bayonets and bowie type knives. The KA-BAR was a rambo version of the bowie knife. More or less. It was a bowie with a grip like a estwing hammer/hatchet or a case brand bowie-ish knife.
you should look up:
fairbairn-sykes knife
gerber mark II
winchester riot dagger
gerber guardian backup
SOG daggert
boot dagger
These products used stacked disks of leather to form the handles/grips. The kA-BAR is no longer even considered a military knife. It's usually considered a survival knife and they put a compass in the end of the grip.
There's no more call for bayonets and bowie type knives. The KA-BAR was a rambo version of the bowie knife. More or less. It was a bowie with a grip like a estwing hammer/hatchet or a case brand bowie-ish knife.
you should look up:
fairbairn-sykes knife
gerber mark II
winchester riot dagger
gerber guardian backup
SOG daggert
boot dagger
These products used stacked disks of leather to form the handles/grips. The kA-BAR is no longer even considered a military knife. It's usually considered a survival knife and they put a compass in the end of the grip.
Sagetown
Member
Here's the one I carried in VietNam and brought home. Very Sharp blade. Some guys dissagree, but they were using the rough stone that came with the knife. I used an Arkansas Stone that I brought with me from the states.
Sage
chas08
Member
I've always been told that a steel won't sharpen a knife. It only straightenes the micro - edge that sharpening produces. I believe this. A knifes edge is nothing more than a micro-fine saw. When the teeth become clogged with fatty tissue they cease cutting, when the micro edge becomes rolled over, it ceases cutting. The Butcher steel straightens the micro-edge and boiling water will melt the fatty tissue. When I was a kid we butcherd a hog every November. I remember my Uncle handing his knife to Whomever was available and saying clean this for me. I never remember work stopping to lay a knife to a stone. As for preference, Black Iron over Stainless? They are both good as long as you have a Quality knife. I'm just kinda partial to Black Iron.
Nathan, I will second theGerber Serrator as an absolute bargain. I have used mine on numerous deer and use the serrated part for cutting\sawing\ the breastbone. I lost mine and found it a year later buried in mud witout a spec on it. the soft handles are a real blessing in the cold with slippery hands. weighs nothing too, In all honesty I have and use several knifes and more often than not paired the Gerber with a Wyoming knife. A good, safe and sharp combination that costs less than anything else. I love knives and since we are talking about military types I recently got a beautiful Bark River Canadian Belt knife but have not tested it. quite a knife. I also received a CRKY skinner that looks to be a winner too - both as gifts for Chrstimas so I must be doing something right!
K-Dirt
Member
I got one of those Gerber/Bell & Carslson knives Cabelas is selling this year. It got pretty good reviews in Field & Stream. Not a lot of use yet but I really like it so far. That S30V steel is great.
John
John
45crittergitter
Member
Loomis, I have no idea.
hso, D2 is on my list, and I have several. It's my favorite by far of all the steels I've actually used, which is a small sampling of which D2 is the most "exotic."
hso, D2 is on my list, and I have several. It's my favorite by far of all the steels I've actually used, which is a small sampling of which D2 is the most "exotic."
harro
Member
G'day
All I know is the best knife I have ever owned is a Svord knife made in New Zealand.
I don't know which steel it made from , but oh my God it's good . With the exchange rate the way it is you should seriously look at one of his knives.
These are pure work knives, in my opinion the best.
I'm not in any way connected with this company , so this is no sales pitch
Thankyou for your time
harro
All I know is the best knife I have ever owned is a Svord knife made in New Zealand.
I don't know which steel it made from , but oh my God it's good . With the exchange rate the way it is you should seriously look at one of his knives.
These are pure work knives, in my opinion the best.
I'm not in any way connected with this company , so this is no sales pitch
Thankyou for your time
harro
Doc_Jude
Member
I just can't read all of these other posts, but I've had great success with D2. Not too pricy, and very excellent for the price.
For something easy to get ahold of, and a true field knife, check out Ontario Knife TAK-1 & RAT-7, both come in D2
For something easy to get ahold of, and a true field knife, check out Ontario Knife TAK-1 & RAT-7, both come in D2
eng23ine
Member
This may be slightly off topic but here goes:
Anyone know hat kind of knife the chef's use in Japanese restaurants?
Those things seem like razor blades, and must hold an edge pretty well since they are cutting on a steel grill with them.
Anyone know hat kind of knife the chef's use in Japanese restaurants?
Those things seem like razor blades, and must hold an edge pretty well since they are cutting on a steel grill with them.
Cocked & Locked
Member
My Moore Maker seems to really hold its edge...deer after deer.
iShopKnives
Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
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- 1
The Bottom Line
Your blade steel needs to be suited for your intended use and environment. For example, if you hunt / field dress in soggy / wet climates or conditions you may want to stay away from high carbon knives that tend to rust and require extensive maintenance. If wet conditions and maintenance are not a concern, you can't go wrong with three of my favorites; D2, 1095 or 1055. All Outstanding...
I actually prefer the stainless steel attributes for my use. My three favorite steels are S60V, S30V and VG-10. Aus10 is fantastic to but because it's made in Japan, it's a bit pricier and more intended for custom molds rather than production steels.
Gerber generally uses 420 & 440 series steel which is softer SS with limited edge retention qualities. If you can find a 440C SS blade...go for it. It's a fine steel that competes with the best high carbon steels.
Chad | http://www.ishopknives.com
Your blade steel needs to be suited for your intended use and environment. For example, if you hunt / field dress in soggy / wet climates or conditions you may want to stay away from high carbon knives that tend to rust and require extensive maintenance. If wet conditions and maintenance are not a concern, you can't go wrong with three of my favorites; D2, 1095 or 1055. All Outstanding...
I actually prefer the stainless steel attributes for my use. My three favorite steels are S60V, S30V and VG-10. Aus10 is fantastic to but because it's made in Japan, it's a bit pricier and more intended for custom molds rather than production steels.
Gerber generally uses 420 & 440 series steel which is softer SS with limited edge retention qualities. If you can find a 440C SS blade...go for it. It's a fine steel that competes with the best high carbon steels.
Chad | http://www.ishopknives.com
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