Open carry or Concealed Carry?

The safariland ALS isnt bad at all.
I practice with mine enough that the retention doesnt slow me down... at least not enough that I can measure it.
I practice draw and dry fire daily.
I practice draw and live fire twice a week at the range.
I refuse to carry if I am nor intimately comfortable with all aspects of my carry.

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It sounds like you take this stuff very seriously. Thats very impressive to see considering that many, unfortunately, do not.

I enjoyed our "dialogue". Take care friend.

FoMoGo: Have you noticed any premature wear on your weapon with the ALS holster? What do you carry in the ALS?

For the record, OC and CC are both highly encouraged as opposed to not exercising your right to carry a firearm at all.

When it is an actual conversation and sharing of ideas, I enjoy talks with differing sides of an opinion.
I know I will more than likely not change anyones mind on what they do.
People do what they are comfortable with, for the most part.
Enjoy the day.


Jim

The Washington Courts would disagree with that assessment.

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I am unsure of what point you are trying to make with your link. If you are trying to say that it is illegal for a felon to walk down the street with two partially concealed rifles, then I'd agree with you. Because if you break the law, you forfeit some of your rights.

Using that mentality... there is no right to conceal... OR carry a gun at all.

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You are correct. Conceal carry isn't a specific right. It is a privilege. The whole keep and bear arms doesn't mean that there aren't some limitations or restrictions.

How we keep and bear arms is determined by the laws we and the politicians we elect enact. How much freedom or restriction we have on the right to keep and bear arms is up to us. If we, for example, decide that all ammunition should be encoded (Heaven forbid), then that becomes a restriction we place on the right. If we decide that open carry is a good idea, then it becomes a freedom we place on the right.

And if we want to keep the freedoms/privileges on the rights, then we have to stand up for them. If we want more, then we have to push for them. If we want to block restrictions (such as ammo encoding), then we have to stand up against them.

I think we're probably on the same page FoMoGo in that we both believe in the right for the citizenry to have and use firearms and that neither of us like restrictions on that right. But ultimately, not all restrictions are bad (i.e. felons with guns = not a good thing), we just have to be diligent and make sure we retain as much freedom on the right as we can and keep politicians reigned in.

Tim, I carry in a Bianchi Carrylok... I only looked at and considered the ALS.
There is very minimal wear on the triggerguard on my 1911.
It is a brushed nickel finish and is more wear resistant than the parkerized finish.
My wife carries her 1911 compact in a Carrylok also.
hers is parked and shows minor wear where it locks in.


Jim

FoMoGo: Have you noticed any premature wear on your weapon with the ALS holster? What do you carry in the ALS?

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I dont believe he has an ALS equipped holster (assuming ALS is a Safariland patent). However, I do have an ALS holster. Refer to my previous post(s) for the model number. In terms of premature wear on the weapon, I have only noticed minor "scuffing" along the top of the slide when using this holster. I believe this is due to the plastic component(s) of the ALS. The scuffing varies depending on the angle I use when un-holstering the weapon. So far, however, I have been able to remove these scuffs with lube (in this case, Weapon Shield). Other than this, I havent noticed any significant wear vs other holsters.

Sure would be nice to have the option to do either legally. Forty-four of the 50 United States already recognize OC.

I have a Texas CHL and exercise the right daily. Would I OC if it passes?

Probably, on occasion. "A right not exercised is soon lost".

We have the right to "keep and bear arms," but that doesn't mean we have the right to open carry

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Out here in the free states we do

Texas is a pretty damn free state as far as guns go.

Hell look at the laws for shotguns and rifles...

Pretty much you can carry in your back seat or on a gun rack as long as there is not a round chambered. So if you have a nice pump you can load up the magazine and have it on your back seat or in a gun rack like that. Same with a rifle.

I wouldn't recommend it tho, if you parked somewhere there is a chance it would be stolen quick, unless of course your in a small town.

JD

My wife and I both want open carry in Texas. The violent illegals and drug mules/users/manufacturers are an increasing problem. Concealing a large caliber revolver is just plain hard in the scorching summer. In west Texas a sidearm's a ranch tool and its a pain to un-holster and then conceal in the truck before going anywhere. Then once we get there we have to leave them in the truck anyhow. Once you carry a big revolver it seems pointless to step down to a concealed P3AT. Mic

Out here in the free states we do

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There seems to be a disconnect among many as to the difference between a right and a privilege.

Here's a question: is conceal carry or open carry a right or a privilege in the United States? The answer lies in another question: In your state, are you required to obtain a license in order to conceal or open carry and can that license be revoked and your legal ability to carry denied? And if carrying unlicensed, would you then be punished under the law if caught?

If the answer is yes, then it is a privilege the same as a driving (which requires a license) is a privilege. If we really have the right to conceal or open carry under the constitution, then there shouldn't be government imposed licensing. Everyone should be able to go buy a gun, load it at the store, and walk down the street with it.

Since that isn't the case, we have privileges concerning carrying, not rights. Now, if you interpret the constitution to mean that we do have the right to carry, then we have given up that right to the government a long time ago and are now stuck with privileges which we have to increase and protect. We have to define to our government what privileges we want. And if we want open carry in Texas, that's fine. Then the people of Texas who want open carry need to get out, make our voices heard, force the issue to a vote, and get that privilege on the books. And once it is there, stay vigilant to make sure it isn't taken away again.

Open carry is allowed W/out a permit of any kind in Colorado the state contitution stops just short of specifically protecting it

Everyone should be able to go buy a gun, load it at the store, and walk down the street with it

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You mean like we can in Colorado?

There is no carry period in my state, I'd be extatic if we allowed open carry.

If I had the choice, I would definately carry concealed. It would be better to have one availible than not at all, but it poses it's own set of problems.

In the instance someone has made the decision to rob or attack you and is committed, they already know what your line of defense is. I would think them to be more likely to just shoot at you than try to stick you up, and the fact that you're displaying a weapon might be cause enough for someone to open fire or try to rob you just to get their hands on another 'unmarked' gun.

I firmly believe you shouldn't be carrying unless you have the capacity and capability of using your weapon, and putting it up for display when you've got a choice isn't doing yourself any favors.

Still, if they gave us the green to open carry only in my state, I would probably utilize that.

There seems to be a disconnect among many as to the difference between a right and a privilege.

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Excellent point, and not just on this board either.
I think in VA you do not need a permit to carry openly. If you want to carry concealed you need a permit.
I am comfortable with that arrangement as it recognizes carry as a right but allows for some state regulation.

That is true.. I live in VA and can open carry with out a permit. I can walk in to any gun shop, buy a gun, load it and walk down the street with it. If I want to conceal, I need to go to the court house file my paperwork, then to the police department and get my finger prints and wait 3-6 weeks for my permit. So in VA it is a right to open carry, and concealing the same gun is a privilege.

Caryn

I live in Virginia, and I open carry in certain places, but not where I live in Virginia Beach. The problem is I cannot risk being arrested for something stupid, even if I don't break the law. If I get arrested for anything, I'll be flippin burgers. However; when I go hunting in other parts of the State I open carry all day long. People in rural areas don't even bat an eye. Guns are not scary to everyone.

I do kind of realize the predicament here though. By not open carrying in Virginia Beach I am not really doing anything to promote or teach people about their rights, but at the same time I am weary not to have my rights infringed upon. I am aware in other states that open carry is legal, but if someone freaks out you can be charged with disturbing the peace, or disorderly conduct.

The only solution to this IMO is to move somewhere with majority of the town/ locality being gun toting citizens. Sooner or later we are all going to have to band together if we really want to make things happen. IMO this would spread like wildfire. If freedom loving people made their own communities, or took over existing communities much more could be accomplished.

Boba Fett said:

I am unsure of what point you are trying to make with your link. If you are trying to say that it is illegal for a felon to walk down the street with two partially concealed rifles, then I'd agree with you. Because if you break the law, you forfeit some of your rights.

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I guess I overestimate the comprehension of some of the forum participants. Casad was walking down the street of a small to medium sized city with two rifles wrapped in a towel. Someone called the police and the police detained him. They found out during the investigation that he was a felon, later they found drugs. All the evidence was ruled inadmissible because the police cannot seize a person without a reasonable suspicion that there is a crime afoot. The State appealed and lost, and had to drop all charges against Casad. They tried to claim his detainment was a “community caretaking” function and lost. Then they tried to get him under this statute:

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm . . . in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that . . . warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

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That didn’t wash either. Why? Because the citizens have a right recognized by the WA State Constitution:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired…

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As for Casad, the court said:

Nothing indicates that the manner in which the Defendant was carrying the weapons in any way would give reasonable cause for alarm unless the mere fact of carrying a weapon within the city limits in the open in daylight on a major thoroughfare in and of itself would cause such alarm. The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public. Therefore the Court finds that the officers at the time of the initial contact had no reasonable articulable suspicion that any criminal activity was occurring.

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You see, we have the right to be free from government interference in our daily lives under both the 4th amendment to the US Constitution and Article 1 Section 7 of the WA State Constitution. If you are merely exercising a civil right, the police cannot seize you without a reasonable suspicion that you are or are about to be involved in a crime. Carrying a firearm is a right, thus doing so cannot be grounds for a police seizure absent some other circumstance that would lead a reasonable person to believe your illegal use of that arm was imminent. So we see that, at least in WA, open carry is indeed a right and is recognized as such by WA and WA courts. You claimed that open carry was not a right. I say it is a right and can provide citation to support my position. You need to back up your statement or admit you were mistaken.

In Ohio, you can open carry without a permit, carry concealed with a permit... Personally, I would like to open carry but I hear horror stories all the time from guys that do and get run ins with local LE that give them all kind of hell, a lot of LE don't know you can open carry without a permit, some will argue with you that you can't open carry even if you have a CHL, they're like "it's a CONCEALED handgun license!!". Most guys that do this carry a brochure from the state attornet general stating that open carry IS legal, with or without a CHL. If stopped for OC'ing, they fork over the brochure and ask what part of the ORC (Ohio Revised Code) says OC'ing is illegal which there isn't anywhere in there that says OC'ing is illegal. So, we don't actually have any laws stating that it is legal, we just don't have any saying it is illegal. If they don't say it's illegal then it's legal right???

Problem is tho, with all the sheeple around here, a gun on your hip is just asking for "a man with a gun" call and it happens a lot... You'd think people would figure a criminal isn't going to be going around going about their business with a handgun in a OWB holster but apparently not. I've surely never seen a criminal open carry in a holster...

If you do open carry, the best advice I can give you is carry a voice recorder, a copy of a brochure or email from your State Attorney General saying open carry is legal and remember the words, "Am I free to go?" If they say no, shut your mouth and be respectful and cooperative... It's real easy to get a know-it-all cop pissed off and have him charge you with brandishing, inducing panic or any number of trumped-up charges they can just make up....

Eventually the PD will realize that open carry is the law.
There was an instance in Va where a person in a restaurant that serves alcohol was open carrying, in Va if you have a CHL you have to open carry where alcohol is served, a patron saw that he was carrying as he went to the restroom.
They called 911 and the police came.
The police retained the man and his party.
VCDL went before the town council and addressed the fact that the officers were not up on the law.
The restaurant extended an invitation for the members of VCDL to come back there after the meeting.
The place was full of openly carried sidearms and no lives were lost, no blood was shed, and nobody went to jail.
If you dont exercise your right to OC where legal, it becomes easier to bully people into not doing it.


Jim

Treo:
According to opencarry.org, you still have some restrictions on open carry depending on area or building.

localities may prohibits the open carrying of firearms in a building or specific area within their jurisdiction.

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But Colorado does seem to have fewer restrictions than some other states. However, I noticed that conceal carry still requires a permit according to CarryConcealed.net. If you guys have pretty much unrestricted open carry, you should work on getting rid of conceal carry licensing; it should be just like open carry with little to no restriction.

So yes, like in Colorado ^_^


Mainsail:

You claimed that open carry was not a right. I say it is a right and can provide citation to support my position. You need to back up your statement or admit you were mistaken.

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Well, if OpenCarry.org is correct in what they present, you still have restrictions on your ability to open carry. For example:

Firearms may be openly carried in cars only with a permit/license.

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Therefore, I would say you have the privilege of open carry, but there are restrictions. Additionally, you have to obtain a permit for conceal carry; another restriction.

And according to the this link from OpenCarry.org: http://www.opencarry.org/pdf/FederalWay.pdf, there are still more restrictions on open carry. There are places you aren't allowed to open and even situations you aren't allowed to open carry. Additionally, felons are not permitted to possess a firearm period.

Now, the case you linked to is very interesting. To summarize, a man was walking down the street with two partially concealed rifles. This made a woman who saw him suspicious and she called the police. Responding to her call, the police stopped the man and detained him, reading him his rights. After his rights were read, he admitted he was a felon. Later they searched his backpack and found "controlled substance and drug paraphernalia."

I'm not really sure I understand why the case was thrown out...I'm not a lawyer. Apparently the police didn't have the right to detain him.

I am a bit disappointed in that the state threw the case out. The man was a felon and should not have been in possession of the rifles in the first place. Though I understand that, in Washington, the man would have been allowed to carry the rifles to the pawn store he was going to and not be stopped by officers providing that he was not a felon.

I will admit Mainsail that Washington, like Colorado, has greater privileges granted on things like open carry.

But I still believe that we all lost the right to keep and bear arms a long time ago and we are now battling for our privileges.

I hope everyone here understands that I'm not against the right to keep and bear arms. I believe that we do have and should have that right. I'm simply saying that now, at this point in America, the right has become a privilege in most instances because we the people have given up control of our right to the government. Once you give government control of a right, it becomes a privilege.

If the right to keep and bear arms is truly a right, then why does every state have laws (often differing from state to state), regulations, and licensing concerning possession, conceal carry, open carry, etc. of firearms? Answer? Because it is a privilege now; no longer a right. If it were a right, then the restrictions and laws would kick in after the fact, not before it. An example would be people in every state having the right to carry without license, but if someone commits a felony, they can lose that right.

Mainsail, I think we probably are arguing from the same position: we want freedom concerning firearms and believe that we do have the right under the constitution to keep and bear arms without prior restriction. However, we don't really have that right anymore as we've given it up to government regulation and laws. Therefore if we want more freedom, we have to act to get and maintain it.

And I'll happily admit I am wrong when I am. I've been wrong before and I'm sure to error or misinterpret or whatever and be wrong again.

I'd again like to reiterate that people don't seem to understand the difference between rights and privileges.

Even though our constitution says "right to _______" that doesn't mean that we still have it anymore.

Part of having the right is the ability to give it up. They cannot be taken from us, but we can relinquish them. I contend that we have given up the right to keep and bear arms in so much as we have given the government control over how, when, where, etc. we can keep and bear arms. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. *EDIT* Also, the regulation varies from state to state (i.e. California very different from...well from most other states). *END EDIT*

That's all I'm trying to say.

What sucks is that once you give a right up to the government, it nigh impossible to get it back.

I've seen a lot of posts claiming that open carrying is begging to have some scum bag grab your gun and use it on you. I disagree. The average person who open carries isn't going out looking for trouble, and isn't any more likely to find it. I don't think some crazed junkie is going to run up and grab my pistol while I'm standing in line at Starbucks.

The reason this happens to LEOs is simple, those men and women put themselves in harms way as part of their job. They are in contact with criminals who either have nothing to lose, or not enough brains to understand the risks involved in disarming someone who is trained at defending himself.

I have been studying martial arts for years, I'm a former Ranger, I have a 100 lb service dog who is trained to watch my back. What do you think I'm going to be doing with my feet and elbows while some jackass is making a damn fool grab for my weapon? Do you suppose that I will be so stunned that I'll just stand there and let him take it? I may be partially disabled, but give me a bit of credit for having a few brain cells still functioning.

I live in Florida; it's a hot, miserable state. I don't particularly like it here, but until my wife gets her masters degree I have no choice but to stay put. I carry my Sigma under my shirt calvary draw style, which is what I'm most comfortable with. The polymer grip is checkered and after about an hour of walking around with it my side starts to feel as though I'm carrying a cheese grater. If I could open carry I could at least tuck my shirt in and not get rubbed raw. I'd wear a t-shirt under my shirt, but that just makes it hotter and more uncomfortable; it takes longer to get rubbed raw, but when it finally does start to happen it's actually worse because the extra layer of fabric doesn't stand a chance of drying.

If I could open carry I wouldn't suddenly start walking down dark alleys, or into drug dealer infested neighborhoods exposing myself to people who would try to take my weapon from me, or feel provoked by the sight of it.

I used to open carry in Colorado when I lived there years ago, and I never had anyone try and make a grab for my shootin' iron. I have spoken with many people who still open carry where it's legal to do so and they have no problems either. Until I see some real specifics on this becoming a problem I am not going to get my undies in a bunch over the issue.

Boba Fett said:

Firearms may be openly carried in cars only with a permit/license.

Therefore, I would say you have the privilege of open carry, but there are restrictions.

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Wrong again. There's no such thing as "open carry in a car" in WA. Once you get into the car your firearm is concealed. In that case, yes, you need a CPL. The wording they used in that statement was poor. Open carry is a right, driving or riding in a car is not.

In Virginia, a weapon laying on the seat/dash, or open console is open carried...no permit needed. I know this because I asked our local police department about this question specifically.

Caryn