More gunwriter nonsense...

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felt recoil is a function of the wight and even the shape of the firearm and not just the cartridge. .380 isn't very powerful, but out of a tiny and super lightweight pistol it could be pretty difficult to control. My experience with a borrowed Kel-Tec PF-9 was painful, even though it was just a 9mm. I actually had the "waffle" pattern from the grip imprinted on my palm after two magazines. I full size 1911 in 9mm was a pussycat in comparison.
 
Maybe it's just me but I've never fired a handgun that really put a whuppin on me in terms of recoil

( You want recoil try an 8 in howiter on ZONE 8 red bag)

I just don't notice it so the idea that a .380 is going to hurt someone W/ out underlying issues simply doesn't compute.

Stiffest recoil I've ever felt was from a .44 magnum ( revolvers bore me so I can't tell you what kind it was but it looked like a cop gun)
 
I am just really shocked how many people are complaining about the recoil of the 380. It is really amazing to me. It is like I have entered an alternate universe.
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Ok, I'll try to help. First of all, is this still an attempt at humor?

You can do the calculation and prove to yourself that the recoil velocity of the pistol with the load mentioned is similar to the hot 125gr .357Mag out of a very lightweight revolver. Is it that you don't understand recoil velocity and conservation of momentum? Or is it that you don't believe an airweight revolver has unpleasant recoil with the 125gr self-defense loading?

I posted that this was a quote from John Taffin. Is it that you don't believe John Taffin knows about handguns and handgun recoil?

Recoil is a function NOT just of the power of the handgun, but also of the WEIGHT of the handgun. If you take even a relatively mild load and put it in a very light package it's going to whack your hand. Make the grip small and hard and it's going to feel even worse.
Stiffest recoil I've ever felt was from a .44 magnum...
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I've shot everything from .22 up to 500S&W Mag. The guns that punish me the worst aren't the ones with the most muzzle energy because they tend to be big and heavy, thus ameliorating the recoil due to the conservation of momentum. They also tend to have comfortable, recoil-absorbing grips. The ones that bother me the most are little, lightweight guns with tiny, hard grips and relatively hot loads for the caliber. There may not be much power there, but you soak more of it up yourself because there's no weight in the pistol to minimize recoil velocity.
 
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Seems like some just will not let their "macho shield" down in a conversation.

Funny thing is that I can think of no better example of someone who is best qualified writing about recoil than John Taffin and yet some folks want to attack him because of what he wrote. Sad & silly really.
 
that is down right crazy. I use the buffalo bore ammo in my LCP .380 I did not notice it was that much difference. Now I will admit that next to it my nine is a baby. But it is not bad at all.
 
just about all magazines are crap. they're a commercial enterprise, they only release information that try to convince people to read them in hopes that they can get good numbers to sell off advertising space. not saying they're all bad, but you know what i mean.
 
JohnKSa,

I appreciate your explanation but already understand the physics of recoil. What formulas and calculation do not measure is perception by the user, however. It does not really matter to me how John Taffin perceives 380 recoil. Do I dislike him for it? No. I think he is honestly commenting on his perception. But some people look at a Picasso painting, and think its a masterpiece. Others look at it and think its hideous. It is all about perception. No doubt, he is an expert on many things, but I don't see how his opinion of how a gun recoil affects my opinion of how a gun recoils. I have shot my Kel Tec 380 and Ruger LCP hundreds of times. It just does not bother me to shoot it. I think the recoil is much less than an airweight 38, regardless of what calculations regarding energy may show.

I don't think I am the only person that feels that way, as several others have posted similar material in this thread.
 
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I agree. Recoil is going to be felt differently by different people. Sure, recoil can be calculated, but there are a bunch of factors that play into how recoil is felt. Body type, gun design, hand size, etc, etc.

And I say relax on the gun writer. I'm sorry, but in the original post that quoted him, it didn't sound like he was a raving idiot. I have found that too many people want to split hairs with a scalpol, under a microscope around here. Besides, while there might be little, tiny things wrong with the second statement, is it really that far out of whack?? I mean come on here.

And no, I have never had any problems with .380 recoil whatsoever. The one that slapped my palm the most was a S&W Model 360, shooting .357. The one that snapped my wrist the most was a S&W .500 w/ 4" barrel. Now is someone going to argue what I experienced (maybe my BODY was playing tricks on my BRAIN)??
 
I think perceived recoil is all about mass of the gun and shape & composition of the stock. I find shooting full power .357 magnum loads out of a Ruger SP101 with a rubber Hogue monogrip much more pleasant than an Airweight with wood stock panels firing standard pressure .38s. With the Airweight, the revolver's backstrap is exposed and combined with the gun's light weight is more painful to shoot than the heavier Ruger with the hand-filling wraparound rubber grip.
 
JohnKSa

More gunwriter nonsense...
Some jewels from a well-respected handgun magazine. American Handgunner

Discussing the recoil of the LCP using Buffalo Bore .380 "+P" ammunition: John Taffin "Ruger's LCP"

"Recoil is fierce with these loads, however they are about as potent as a .380 can be. If ever needed in a serious situation the recoil won't even be noticed."

It is true that perception is a subjective experience. However, muzzle rise and the time to get back on target are not subjective and you'll notice them regardless of the gravity of the situation. If your first shot doesn't do the trick, then "fierce" recoil puts you at a significant disadvantage for your second shot regardless of how the seriousness of the situation alters your perception.
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Have you ever used a shot timer when shooting to see how differing amounts of recoil effect your shooting?

I have.

I can shoot full power 10mm loads in an El Presidente drill only slightly slower than mid-range 9mm loads. Looking at the time between the 1st and 2nd shot of each pair on the targets, the difference in time is about 0.05 of a second. Considering that if you make a heart shot on a bad guy he may still continue the fight for 5 to 10 seconds, I have to disagree than 0.05 of a second is significant to 5 or 10 seconds.

You might have time for the Mozambique drill.
 
I can shoot full power 10mm loads in an El Presidente drill only slightly slower than mid-range 9mm loads.
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Would you qualify the recoil of the 10mm loads as "fierce"? If so, I guess your point is well taken.
I have shot my Kel Tec 380 and Ruger LCP hundreds of times. It just does not bother me to shoot it. I think the recoil is much less than an airweight 38, regardless of what calculations regarding energy may show.
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So you have shot the 100gr Buffalobore +P loading in your P3AT & LCP? Or are you making your recoil assessment based on standard pressure loadings that don't provide the additional 40% recoil velocity of the BB ammo?
 
I have been known to flinch all over the place when shooting from a little Kel-Tec but don't flinch a bit with my XD-45c. A number of odd reasons seem to be involved that don't exactly relate to the laws of physics.
The little gun seems too little and light and psychologically I felt it would blow up when fired. The heavy gun seemed solid and strong and like trustworthy equipment.
The "snap" from light, fast ammo still makes me jump a bit but the "push" from 230 grains doesn't seem bad even with Double Tap which I now use in both calibers. Some people who have shot lighter 45 bullets have been bothered more by recoil than they ever were by the heavier bullet. This may be why so many people who shoot 45 don't like the 40 caliber in the same type of gun.
Grips are extremely important and the kind of "vest pocket" gun most civilians like me carry 24/7 doesn't have much. A Kel-Tec gets positively accrobatic when fired because light weight, very little to hang onto and about 2 1/2 times the power of the 25s it replaces can be fairly tricky to operate. That said, I find little difference between ordinary ball and hotter loads in either the Kel-Tec or the XD though two guns couldn't be much more unlike.
Ever try a tiny NAA 22 mini revolver? The "hand grip" consists of one finger. It kicks or at least jumps around noticeably because you're barely holding it. :eek:
 
So you have shot the 100gr Buffalobore +P loading in your P3AT & LCP? Or are you making your recoil assessment based on standard pressure loadings that don't provide the additional 40% recoil velocity of the BB ammo?
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I shoot standard pressure. I don't think it would be prudent to shoot ammo that is to hot in an LCP or Kel Tec. Most of the people here that complain of the fierce recoil of the monstrous 380 ACP cartride are shooting standard pressure ammo. Very few people shoot Buffalo Bore, even among the people who can't handle the recoil. If buffalo bore recoils only 40% more than standard pressure, I do not see that as a big problem though.
 
Don't be so hard on the writers. Editors are notorious for messing things up. I bet the writer is feeling quite embarrassed right about now.

Then again, some writers really do deserve it.

How did "muzzle break" get past the editor? That's pretty bad.
 
One thing's for sure: the internet's a lot more accurate than gunwriters are. :evil: (for those wondering of the import the devil's face conveys-in this instance, sarcasm in the extreme).
 
I have heard about this .380 Buffalo Bore ammo.... so now I am going to have to try it out. I will admit it has the best (on paper) ballistics I have seen for any .380 factory ammo.

I own an LCP & a S&W M60-15 J frame chambered in .357. I have a really hard time believing that I am going to put anything in my LCP that is going to make the recoil come close to what I feel with my J frame. when shooting 357 loads. That J-frame is not an airwieght or anything either. So I have the advantage of having a heavier Jframe which reduces felt recoil.

When I shoot .357 out of the J-frame it feels like someone is punching me in the open palm.

The LCP is "snappy" but it is a totally different kind of recoil. It is not hard hitting recoil, it is more like a 9mm recoil where there is muzzle lift, but no pound.

I would like to hear from someone who shoots an LCP and a small frame .357 before I believe the recoil mathematicians on this one.
 
John Taffin knows more about fierce recoil than 99% of the posters on this board.

http://www.sixguns.com/range/index.html

Anybody calling him out want to post their published works on the subject of firearms. Thought not.
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Just because somebody is an "expert" and has a bunch of publications, especially non-peer reviewed gun rag publications, does not mean the writer's words are gospel or that the writer's judgment is 100% accurate.

One of the things I have noticed in some "expert" writings on gun control is when they predict what the results will be for people without first observing a good sampling of said results first. Maybe for an "expert" such as Taffin, the fierce recoil of the LCP w/ the Buffalo Bore loading won't result in a significant time penalty because he is a very experience shooter. He knows what to expect from the gun, has 100s of 1000s rounds down range, and as such, is more likely to be able to control a gun more so than John Q. Public. Then compare that to your typical John Q. Public CCW person who wants the most power out of the lights and smallest gun possible who likely shoots no more than a couple of times a year (many shoot even less and certainly not with their 'expensive' defensive ammo) and you find that the little guns tend to recoil significantly, torque around in their hands, and in general, screw up followup shots significantly.
 
The FBI has basically claimed that most of what is put out in popular gun publications is propaganda used to sell products.

Faster lighter blah blah has all been proven worthless. "Energy Tranfer", "stopping power", "one shot stop %" all complete hogwash. Less Penetration in HP rounds can cost you your life.

HP are designed to devistate you physiologically & mentally. They are not designed to be "safe". The FBI & LE does not use hollow points because they don't pass through the human body.

Over 80% of shots taken by LEO completely miss their intended target. Using a around because it doesn't penetrate the body is completely useless.

They use ammo because it PENETRATES and causes large PERMANENT WOUND CAVITIES. This helps to stop people quicker. Larger cavity = larger wound = more blood loss = phsycologically harder to deal with.
 
I purchased 3 gun magazines today. (Glock Annual, Guns & American Handgunner).

I do not understand all the hate for publications that do a great job of introducing more folks into shooting than almost any other form of current media. In fact they are about the only positive media about guns on the market today. Are there mistakes, of course but overall gun magazines are a huge asset.

I would think that most folks who criticize are just jealous that they do not earn a living shooting and writing about firearms. Bashing gun magazines does nothing to help support shooting and firearms in general. Maybe we would be better off sticking together in the days ahead instead of turning on the only media we have on our side.
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I agree with you in that argument. I believe that the people who write these articles are not stupid and definitely know more than I do about guns. I consider myself a student of firearms. I am always learning and never assume that I know more than anyone about anything when it comes to guns, because ive been proven wrong before.

Having said that, read Gun Digest Book of the 1911 Volume II by Pat Sweeney. He is definitely knowledgable and makes for a good read. He also has terrible grammar that wasn't picked up by his editors or ran thru spellcheck, and writes very biased reviews. He raves about the reliability and overall value of the lower-end 1911's but basically called the Colt Special Combat Government a piece of junk.

On a side note, he eluded to the fact that it was very difficult to get a test weapon out of Colt (one of the reasons for the SCG's poor review). If you read his torture tests that he subjected to various 1911's for this book, and what he did to a ruger sr9 when it came out, i wouldn't have sent him a gun either. I don't make these guys out to be the enemy any more than you do, but keep in mind you have to take these guys with a grain of salt. When test weapons, free ammo, sponsorship dollars and the inevitable freebies all get tossed around as they do, it affects the wording they use.
 
I would like to hear from someone who shoots an LCP and a small frame .357 before I believe the recoil mathematicians on this one.
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I have shot both quite a bit. Full boat loads in an alloy Smith pound my hands into submission. I have arthritis pretty bad so I sold the light weight wheel guns. I had a P3AT but I sold it and later bought an LCP. The LCP has muzzle flip out the wazoo and tracks all over the place, but it doesn't beat my hands with a passion. However, control is still an issue.

I have done a lot of drills on the timer with carry guns. For the first 2-3 shots there is no difference between a lightweight commander with 230 Hydra Shoks or Golden Sabers and my Glock 19 with 147 Golden Saber. Seven yard Mozambique drills run 1.4 to 1.6 seconds with about any combination. As the grip deteriorates things go to hell in a hand basket. A five second El Pres with my G17 or a full size 1911 with IPSC loads is a piece of cake down just a few points. The same drill with a lightweight commander and snarly loads, same points down, increases in time by 1 to 1.5 seconds. I am a wimp.
 
The FBI has basically claimed that most of what is put out in popular gun publications is propaganda used to sell products.
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Could we have a reference for that? I truly doubt that there's anything even remotely like that quote in ANY LEO reference.

HP are designed to devistate you physiologically & mentally. They are not designed to be "safe". The FBI & LE does not use hollow points because they don't pass through the human body.
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Hmmmmm, and how would a hollow point devastate you mentally?

Over 80% of shots taken by LEO completely miss their intended target. Using a around because it doesn't penetrate the body is completely useless.
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Got a link to a reference for that one, too? I somehow doubt that the actuality is quite that bad.

They use ammo because it PENETRATES and causes large PERMANENT WOUND CAVITIES. This helps to stop people quicker. Larger cavity = larger wound = more blood loss = phsycologically harder to deal with.
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Oh, please. Psychology has nothing to do with exsanguination. It's a purely physical process. If you are referring to neurogenic shock, you'll have the Facklerites all over you in a minute.

You have a conundrum here.
Less Penetration in HP rounds can cost you your life.
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Yet you then quote the ammunition as creating a larger wound cavity, due to expansion. Even the FBI, whom you "quote" wants to see expansion, even after barrier penetration.

The simple fact is that properly designed bullets do not always penetrate completely through an individual with a COM shot. Nor do they have to. In fact, if your reasoning was correct, the simplest manner in which to achieve the penetration would be to limit the expansion to insure through shots. That obviously hasn't been done.
 
I don't shoot .380 so all I am going to say is that my .32acp CZ-83 is one of the hardest kicking "pocket" pistols that I own.
I would much rather shoot one of my PP Walthers or my Kel-Tec P32 than the larger magazine capacity CZ.

As stated, recoil is a subjective perception.
 
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