Unfortunate encounter at the range.

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Where are all the "good apples" who are cops, who will point out what a total creep this alleged "off duty cop" was? People are on a hair trigger to accuse anyone and everyone of "cop bashing," but whenever we see abusive and possibly illegal behavior (threatening illegal confiscation) like this from a cop, the "good apples" are silent.

The SECOND this guy identified himself as an "off duty officer," he turned the conversation into a law enforcement action whether he had authority to do so or not. Whenever a law enforcement action is directed your way, you START from the position of silence and then if you're allowed to, you ask if you are being detained. I would have asked him if he was the range officer.

Clearly this guy is a dangerous and arrogant bully who just gave all cops a bad name whether we want to admit that or not. Clearly he identified you as a good victim who would do exactly what you did: i.e. cower in fear and give him a power trip. I wish the good cops would stop being mostly silent about the bad/illegal behavior by police officers, instead of looking the other way and attacking everyone who discusses it, as being a "cop basher."
 
Their side of the range, not their sidearms

Funderb
Man- "You guys all walked down range while we still had loaded weapons on our side, thats how people get killed, and it is stupid."


Bailey Guns
Funny...I had a "loaded weapon on my side" for over 15 years as a cop. No one ever died because of it.
jcwit
Having a loaded (hot) rifle, pistol, shotgun, whatever on the line out of the case ready for use is a whold different deal than having a holstered weapon on your side.


From the context of what the OP said, the officer was not about talking about having holstered sidearms, he was talking about having loaded/hot weapons on his side of the range.
 
First of all, good job on de-escelating a situation when all parties are armed. It amazes me to see the amount of attitude in the air at a place when all parties are openly armed.

I can see a point in talking to someone over a safety situation that is clear. If it isn't, and in this case it is hard to tell, then saying something from a position of authority is pointless. Perhaps talking about it with you to get your point of view on the situation would have served you both (each getting to see the point of the other), but that isn't what the other guy did. Since you were leaving anyway, you did the right thing by just "moving on" about your day. No real harm, no real foul. I don't think that it is in question whether or not the other guy was being a jerk, but what would you have gained by trying to prove your point to someone who isn't interested in hearing the other side? I'm not saying to back down from every situation, but definitely to choose your fights...this simply wasn't worth the effort of pursuing anything at that moment. Now that you have the opinion of others and have had time to think it over, you know what to do or say if you run into this person again...and if he says something to you again you know how to respond.

If he really was an officer, you were probably in more danger of being hit by an errant shot than you realize. :D No cop bashing here, just a bit if rib-poking.
 
Weeelllll if you go by the NRA range rules and regs loaded weapons are not allowed on a "cold" line whether being held by the side, or lying on the bench.

Lets get real. Loaded arms with people down range is not the safest or smartest thing to do whether you're an officer or not. Being an officer has nothing to do with it, safety has everything to do with it.
 
yea you handled yourself way better then I would have. but then again you are young and he probably would have tossed his "Im older and wiser the you card" had you got smart on him. lets jsut say you do know the rules there and they dont require a saftey coarse at that range, I would have told him the law he is supposed to be upholding, you know the one that states that you can have a long rifle if your over 18 and dont have a criminal record. and asked for ID. but thats just my nature. Im a bit a quick whit smart a$$ when it come to stuff like that. but I think you handled it nicely being that you were leaving anyhow. Im sure there would have been more to it had you just got there and he come down there and start on ya. the range me and FlyinBryan go to has a 4 foot burn between the range and next door where they give lessons, and when our side has a cease fire and the side giving lessons is still shooting I dont feel safe one bit going down range when I hear 30 people just 20 yards away firing down range with only a 4 foot burm to protect us. I almost want to crawl down there. our range goes by NRA rules. when they call a cease fire you have to open all action and completely unload and lock open your guns and cant touch them untill everone has posted targets and is behind the line. I wouldnt shoot at a range that didnt use this rule, but as to why they started giving lessons and not making the other side cease fire a the same time is why Im changing ranges soon. its only happened once and I got every weakend so they jsut started doing it, I guess if I said something they would do something about it. the owner is VERY safety prone. anyways, you handeled the situation great being you are young and would have REALLY pi$$ed that dude off had you got smart with him, I probably would have made his face turn 5 shades of red but then again Ive been shooting almost every weakend for 27 years and know gun safety very well. I had to teach some lady at the range this past weakend who just bought her first pistol to protect her home. she had no safety about her what so ever and POS of a gun, high point 9mm,. she shot about 3 clips, took her an hour to do because of jams and me trying to keep her from killing someone. if I wasnt there she would have gone to the hospital. she was about to fire her first round holding the gun with one hand on the grip and one hand on the back/top of the gun. It would ahve messed her hand up. I yelled at her to stop and had to baby sit her butt till she left to take the gun back to the walmart type gunshop who sold her that paperweight. She was pi$$ed they sold her that, she was a peppy old black lady so someone over at that gun shop was in for a good oll handon hip, finger waving, head bobbing, old black lady scolding, which they deserve. I hate that place she got it from. ok Ive rambled enough
 
Quote:
These lanes are separated by a 7 or 8 foot concrete wall, and have 15' berms with overhead angled steel traps that rise another 10 feet.

Sounds like my local range. Walking down to check targets on the rifle range is totally fine while there is live fire on the pistol range. They are separate, operate separate, big divider berm and wall between them. So long as everyone on the rifle range has unloaded and opened their actions for an agreed-upon ceasefire, it doesn't matter what is going on at the pistol range.

(brief aside: At the range where I am a member, it is common policy to have ranges that are divided the way this one is operate independently of one another, with this setup any "strays" crossing to other ranges would be the result of extreme negligence. You may have a different opinion, but this is how I have seen things run since I was 8, and I am used to it.)





hurts like heck when someone is extremely negligent and someone catches one even off those baffles. bet if you go look you can find some dings that came from the pistol side. you only have to get lucky once.

the over 21 nonsense sounded like nonsense to me and you handled it real well. better than about 1/3 of the folks who responded woulda. or at least how they post they woulda.

you can't be too careful, i learned that from seeing other folks screw up. beats heck outa being the one serving as the example
 
You are right it hurts like hell when someone has a negligrnt discharge, no mater how careful they maybe, one screw-up and someone may be in bad shape. I go to an indoor range and every month their is reports of bullets in the ceiling and sidewalls. Whese are honest mistakes I'm sure as I really doubt someone is shooting at the ceiling or sidewalls but it does happen.

My self I had a discharge with a pistol that had a hammer drop safety this malfunctioned. No harm done as the weapon was pointed down range in a safe direction, but if persons had been down range it more than likely been very unnerving to them down range.


However you manage your range any way you want, be it safe or unsafe, I pray noone gets harmed. I just hope I realize the situtation before I get set up and can quitely leave.

BTW I been Asst range Officer the last 2 years at the regional Bullseye matches, and anyone caught handling a weapon during a cold line is asked to leave the match and range at once, no questions asked, no excuses allowed. Safety is of prime importance, lets keep our sport more dangerous getting to the match/range and back home than while being there.
 
MacMac
Curious.....

How long were you there over all?
about 2.5 hours

Who of each group was there first?
My friends and I showed up and began shooting about ten minutes before this man and his friends.

Did the other group ever call out a Cease Fire to change targets?
No.
I can see you didn't call that out..
Didn't want to deal with any bad blood or bs, and we were leaving anyway.


Just in case anyone can't seem to get the nature of the range:


F ...................................................B
I
R...................................................E
I........appx. 50 yds total....................R
N
G...................................................M
------Concrete Wall, appx 7' height----------
L....................................................................................................B
I ....................................................................................................E
N......................................Appx. 100 yds total....................................R
E....................................................................................................M



The berms are made this way:
^
T ......................P
E...................L
N............A
' ...... T
^ . E
_ SSS
1 SSSSS
5 SSSSSSS
f SSSSSSSSS
t SSSSSSSSSSS <-------- Bullet


(S = Sand / Earth) topped with metal reflector plate.
 
If the "cop" was so concerned, about any of what he questioned you about, why didnt he say something right away? I know if there was a safety issue, I would have, and I'm not a cop.

+1

IF he was a policeman which I doubt, instead of being a pri(k maybe he could have come by and worked with you on things he thought he saw as concerns.

Personally I think he was just pi$$ed off because his Valentine kicked his butt out of the house.


C
 
Did a lot better than me and probably saved yourself more trouble than face you lost with your pals.

When I was a kid (16 yrs) a friend and I were shooting at a local city range. While we were shooting a crazy old man stormed out onto the range, knocked all our targets over (balanced on a heavily shot up water barrel) and started screaming about vandalism while ordering us to leave.

I didn't take the high road, I told him in a very unkind way that we weren't leaving, he had better leave, that running out in front of people shooting was real dangerous and he should know better.

He ran away. And we continued to shoot thinking nothing of it. Completely unaware that this man I had just told to bugger off was the newly appointed city range care taker.

Anyway, he ran away to call the cops. Who then started looking for me, because according to the old man I had threatened his life while he was attempting to preventing me from vandalizing of property.

Needless to say, I heard the cops were looking for me (they called my house phone wanting to know where I was so they could charge/arrest me). When I talked to them they pretty much told me I was in heaps and heaps of trouble and needed to turn myself in.

However, lady luck was on my side and I stayed out of legal trouble because a video camera had captured the entire event from start to finish. Without that film to exonerate me I'd probably still be in jail.

Even if he wasn't a real off duty cop, exchanging words at a gun range can be a big head ache. Wiser heads should always prevail around guns.
 
So he watched you all go down range and didn't call a cease fire? He then waited until you were leaving to mention your supposed violation. Okay so this is all highly suspect, LEO or not just because you violated the rules does not allow him to threaten confiscation. Regardless of whether he was off-duty or impersonating an officer he sounds like a bully.
 
I have been knocking around law enforcement, corrections and government for over 20 years and I am 99% sure that the man in question was an off-his-rocker kook. A real copper would have flashed his shield. A policeman would never use the phrase "I am an off-duty cop." However, I think the young men in question acted with commendable restraint in avoiding an armed encounter with a semi-deranged individual. I run into a lot of these phony cops, airborne rangers, special forces and SEALS all the time. Sick people with severe macho problems are a menace.
 
You did very well. Keeping your cool. I have always found it fun to be MORE respectful to jerks like that. They EXPECT/want you to get mad.

Check range rules/ Tell Supervisor of range what happened/what you should do if bothered again.

BTW I like a hot range (esp if no RO) I like a loaded gun on my hip when at open ranges where you never know who is going to pull up.
 
you like that guy? we had a us marshall trespass onto another guys 20 acres and demand he stop shooting. the marshall had just bought a 1/4 acres and was attempting to control the 20. he got punched in the mouth when he touched the guys kid to take a 22 away from him. he had a real bad day overall. the badge didn't help him
 
The range I go to is setup very similar. Rifle on one side pistol on the other berm in the middle. The two operate independent of each other. Is it safe? Sure, the only way to get a bullet from one side to the other is to bounce it off of something in the air. This doesn't mean that no bullets go over the berm. They just cannot land on the other side of the range.

Sounds like the OP was dealing with a Range Ninja a close relative to the Mall Ninja.
Dallas Jack
 
you know richochets can be a funny thing. i can show you where i shot from where the coyote was i missed and where the hole in my truck windshield was. and we would both swear there is no freakin way i coulda put that hole in it. but then there is that dog gone hole to explain away. course no one was standing downrange when i had that lil freakish occurence
 
the only way to get a bullet from one side to the other is to bounce it off of something in the air

Are you sugesting a richochet off of a low flying craft. In other words there is nothing to hit but air. Now if you go far enough past each berm (maybe a quarter mile or so) you will find bullet strikes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not belittleing safety. If you so much as take a seat on the wrong side of the line on a cold range the RO will bring it to everyones attention.

Be safe.
Dallas Jack
 
i'm thinking more about those overhead baffles and the fact you gotta walk past em on the long range side as you go down range. i can envision someone getting stupid on the pistol side getting at least fragments on the rifle side but i tend to be a real worry wart. the penalty can be permenant
 
Proper ID...

I responded to a call this past summer along similar lines. During the same summer, I had a simlar experience as the original poster. Ill share...

First and foremost, our local range attracts shooters from three states, as there are very few public ranges within decent driving distance in my area. The range is small, and though well maintained, it isnt exactly a professional range, is very informal; simply a small DNR maintained range where people can shoot, I believe there are 8 benches.

As you can imagine, it becomes overwhelmingly crowded.

Situation 1) I recieved a call from my dispatcher, advising that someone was out at the shooting range 'kicking' people off for 'safety violations,' identifying himself as a cop. A third party called it in. When I arrived, I spoke with 'the cop,' who was from out of state, and turned out to be a high ranking volunteer fireman. I attempted to look past the false representation and heard his side of the story. He was very crude, vulgar, unable to articulate himself well enough so that I could follow his story, and simply vented his frustrations of having to wait for other people while he was trying to shoot. I omitted the false representation charge, instead booting him from the range. Just because someone identifies themselves as law enforcement doesnt necessariliy mean it so. It is your right to request identification (in a respectful fashion of course,) meaning both a badge AND I.D. Also, bragging that he was going to 'call his buddies to come confiscate guns and issue citations' doesnt demonstrate much professionalism if indeed he was an LEO. If he was an off duty cop, and identified himself as such, note his jurisdiction. Assuming the fireman in my experience had been a cop, he was 'policing' in the wrong state, where he has NO powers of arrest and no jurisdictional authority. In such a case, avoid conflict and simply contact the proper jurisdictional authorities.

Situation 2) While out shooting at the same range last summer, I had a similar experience as you. A male subject was at the range flashing a badge, acting in a demanding manner, attempting to 'control' the range; when he was done shooting he ordered everyone else to stop firing, and he casually walked to his target. When others were at their targets, he would order everyone back in a hurried fashion, so he could begin firing again. When disgruntled grumbling began amoungst the other shooters, he would lay the LEO trip on them, using his badge. Finally, after about an hour of observation, and of course complete cooperation with the self-affirmed LEO, I asked him to see his badge, whereas he flashed it quickly. I again asked to LOOK at it, and he became irritated as I was questioning his authority. Finally, I identified myself as an LEO, displayed my badge, ID and provided him with a business card. I ordered to see his badge. Again, (and Im not bashing firemen, it just so happens...) he was a volunteer firefighter from another state. I took his information and banned him from the range; if I had observed him on the range property again, I would have charged him accordingly.

Bottom line, not everyone who identifies themself or produces a badge is a certified LEO. Furthermore, a public shooting range, with several armed persons is not the place to display an ego. Mutual respect, responsibility, and maturity is a must.

I feel as though you did the right thing, keeping your calm and acting respectfully, though I suspect that the guy was not an LEO, however you deescalated the situation, despite 'loosing face' as you called it.

As far as the walking down range; observe your ranges policy and abide by it. If that type of thing is allowed (it is not at ours,) I would suggest refraining from walking down your lane, as one irresponsible person at the range could ruin your day, if not your life. Just be careful!
 
I have shot on a range with wooden baffles on the berm behind the targets. Way too many holes in those baffles. The range had been there for many years but was shut down when housing moved to close behind it. (some rounds found their way into a few houses)

Sounds like we should be leary of volunteer firefighters.:D
Dallas Jack
 
..

the "off-duty"blahzay was just something
about his own small genitalia and not having
put anyone down on Valentine´s.

The core of it seems reasonable.
It was just presented by a profile-neurotic honk.

IMHO.
 
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