Army base starting to register OFF POST firearms!

leadcounsel said:

Is it time to gather up everyones' ropes, knives, and lighters?

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Like Jeff said . . . don't underestimate.


We couldn't have knives over a certain length in our barracks. They had to be locked up in the armory. It was fairly arbitrary, but basically it was anything more than a leathermen or pocketknife. Yep, that included items like our personally bought K-Bars. And yes, we still had things like our e-tools stored in the room.

Doesn't have to make sense. Command orders are commands orders. I myself recall having to help conduct the searches for such "contraband" when I made Corporal. And thinking it was silly, I quietly encouraged everyone to keep such items either in the cars, or in the home of one our "brown-baggers" so I wasn't put in the position where I had to take it.

That's a cop-out and weak response. so I suppose if the military told me to kill my dog I should just go along with it because it's only property and the military has total control... I don't think so.

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As a historical aside LTC George Armstrong Custer did, in fact, order his troops to kill all their dogs ( that had accompanied them on the march) before the attack on the Wash-ita. The order was given to keep the dogs from barking and alerting the Indians, Custer's own dogs were, of course exempt.

LEAD COUNSEL
This is the second time I have asked you, How do you reconcile your statement that the Command authority has no right to do this with my repeated assertation that at least two of them have?

Look up Army Regulation 190 -11 dated 2006 I believe.

The big Army requires all privately owned weapons residing on an installation to be registered with the Director of Emergency Service (combine Provost Marshal with fire dept and you get a new directorate).

Some installations expand that to include weapons brought on base for any reason (hunting, skeet, target shooting) by anyone.

No big conspriacy here.

Now, the mission commander (or highest ranking cat on the base) or any other level of commander can order his soldiers who live off base to register thier weapons. The theory of maintaining good order and discpline goes pretty far. Is that order legal?

Depends on who the SJA is advising the commander. Ask ten lawyers, get ten answers.

You will never get an answer until the order is given, disobeyed, and soldier elects court martail, and then the case is heard. I would bet the soldier would lose. Dumb, unfair, crazy, or bad orders can be legal.

It is not a gun grab, it is all about reducing suicides and effecting domestic violence. Yes commanders are held responsible for just about everything. It is CYA, so if a soldier does kill himself, the commander can say they did every thing they could when they saw a warning sign and took his weapons.

The data base is COPS. It is a computer suite that maintains vehcile information as well as police cases and a few other things. If the installtion inputes the data into COPS it will be there.

My installation is currently bantering around with the same theory, to require registration of all weapons for military personnel to include off post. I have heard of one unit already requiring it.

Like any other order in the Army, you disobey, you take your chances. This is one that would make me think hard.

Oh forgot to add, if you are in the Army, you are under thier jurisdiction. Their is no on base, off base for orders. Any soldier at any time can be apprehended by an NCO or MP/CID off base for an offense and prosecuted. A soldier is a soldier 24 hrs a day, anywhere he goes.

Also, does the gov have jurisdiction over a solider when they are off-base? I would assume off-base means not currently active?

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As long as you are in the active military service, the government owns you regardless of where you are, on or off post.

I don't see the issue here. When I was in, the military controlled every aspect of the soldiers life, my firearms were kept in the company arms room and I bought my ammo at the gun club when I went to shoot. When I left the range it was with "no brass, no ammo sargent". If some firearms registration process will allow a platoon sargent or C.O. to identify an at risk soldier and intervein I say register off post firearms. We need to protect those who protect us.

It seems that many of the people reading and responding to this thread are civilians. When a member of the United States Armed Forces raises his/her right hand and swears or affirms to protect the U.S. from all enemies foreign and domestic, that individual gives up the rights that he/she has sworn to defend. That continues 24/7 until the service members ETS date. Just one more reason you should thank a soldier, even when they are not risking their lives they are giving up a lot that you take for granted.

leadcounsel said:

I took an oath to defend the US Constitution from both foreign and domestic tyranny

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Our oaths said we'd defend them. It never said we'd get the chance to enjoy them while doing it. The military structure is the essence of tyranny. We can pretty it up all we want, but we don't get to choose for ourselves as military men. We're given orders; we issue orders; we follow orders.


Are you actually idealistic enough to believe you aren't subject to martial law, which is quite different than the peacetime law the rest of the nation operates under?


We're bickering over little more than your right to own a piece of property. You do realize that your command, quite literally, has control over your life don't you? You can be given an order than could result in your death, and if the mission dictated it, you would be required to follow it.

I think you probably should have explored this and worked it out with your recruiter before now. Have you been in too long for a failure to adjust discharge?

When I was in, the military controlled every aspect of the soldiers life, my firearms were kept in the company arms room and I bought my ammo at the gun club when I went to shoot.

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Never heard of any soldier having to buy his own ammo? Sure you got that right?........

Sure. I both rented handguns at the Camp Lejeune MWR range, and bought the ammo at the same time to shoot through it. In fact, they insisted upon their ammo through their rentals.

Read the whole quote:

and I bought my ammo at the gun club

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Fort Carson in Colorado has the rule. My son had to register his and he lives off base.


C

Lead Counsel

I have a suggestion for you. Why not wait until the registration order comes to your unit and you can tell them that you refuse the order on Constitutional grounds and request a General Court Martial. That way we'd have a legal precedent as to weather or not the order is, in fact lawful.

Good that both these points were finally made by the fifth page:

Suicides in reality happen with ropes (we've had hangings), drugs (we've had ODs), cars, and you name it... Is it time to gather up everyones' ropes, knives, and lighters?

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Never underestimate what a commander will do to keep a perfect OER. Depends on what priority the battalion and brigade commander put on the issue.

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Back to the other part of the original 1st post:

appears to be a "safety, heath, unit readiness' rationale

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Which is abused all the time. Want to complain about? Get called a "barracks
lawyer" by your thick-headed peers. Actually get it taken somewhere? Get
passed over later for promotion and have your commendations down-graded.
Kiss your military career good-bye. (BTW, hope your wife didn't divorce you
during deployment #X in the meantime).

Because like Fight Club, the first rule is you don't talk about it.

Can't talk about? No one to go to with a legit gripe/problem/concern because
you know how the system will respond?

Hello, Mr. Suicide....

Gee, looks like it really has nothing to do with guns --just like all the
political talk about guns in the civilian world.

Ok, next topic.

Has anyone considered an anonymous call to the IG's hotline?

AFS

We have a "No personal weapons allowed on NAVSTA Norfolk" sign on the way on base. OK, so, no weapons on base.
At home, however, the Navy has no legal right to any of my weapons kept in the home, as they are my personal property. They cannot confiscate a car, for example, from my garage. They can prevent me from driving on base, of course, but they can't take my car away. Same with guns.
My wife and I each own firearms. Can the Navy take hers away from her? (She's a civilian) Nope. Well, I live there, too, so I guess we get to keep our guns.

But the navy CAN order you to not live in any house with guns in it. They CAN take away your privilege to drive at all. They can take away your option to live off post. Look in the mirror at that tattoo on your butt. It will be difficult to read backward, but it says, "PROPERTY OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT".

Leadcounsel, I'm invoking Rule Two of Fight Club on you....

Harley, how is it not violating the law? It is a federal institution, and the 2nd amendment is federal law. and last time I checked they are infringing on my right to KEEP and BEAR them. If I can get it together, I would like the NRA to look into the ISA of 1950 that states firearms are illegal on Bases.
To Bullfrog: As a Corpsman, they were bluffing.
Also, remember, Active duty CANNOT sue the military, even if it is sueing for their constitutional rights

The Coast Guard Exchange on Kodiak Island SELLS GUNS & AMMO! I retired from the USCG in 2001, almost 5 years active duty USA and 16 in the USCG. After I got married I was lucky enough to have never lived in guvment housing.

IF the CO ordered me to give him a list of my POW's I would simply lie and say I did not own any. People are usually their own worst enemy, they simply cant keep their mouths shut, its like they "Want to be caught", I NEVER once suffered from this phenomenon. During the day or deployment I was USCG, at home Jerry H. Some people cant turn it on/off like I could, you know the type "Hard for the Guard" they say.

But like they say too

"If a frog had pockets he would carry pistols and would not be afraid of snakes"

leadcounsel wrote

I disagree with those that say the military has unfettered unquestionable broad discretion over a servicemember.

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Do you honestly believe that your command does not reach beyond the gate. I live in Atlanta Ga. and if I wore a partial uniform to the grocery store here I doubt if it would raise any eyebrows, but, I used to be stationed in the Washington D.C. area and there it would most certainly result in some punitive action even if only verbal reprimand. Military servicemembers are not subject to or protected by the policies of which they are the instruments.

tpaw wrote

Never heard of any soldier having to buy his own ammo? Sure you got that right?........
February 17th, 2009 10:42 PM

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I was referring to personal use ammo for shooting skeet or target practice with my pistol. I was not an MP so I did not have access to that ammo. I could of course shoot almost as much .223 .308 and .50BMG as my command would requisition and allow since I was qualified and assigned the corresponding firearms, M16, M60, M2.